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Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

Okay, so....

A friend showed me a video this morning from some dude on YouTube who goes by the moniker "ArchWarhammer" and holy hell in a hand-basket is that guy off his rocker. Naturally it was about this Jeremy dude, which I've been following for the better part of two weeks now. For those not in the know, he's a YouTuber, and a Magic player who just got banned for life from Magic for comments he has made on different social media networks.

Here is the thing, and the purpose of this thread. I can't figure out what is true in this case and what isn't. Almost every single party involved is letting accusations fly, but hardly any of them are providing any hard evidence for their claims, including Jeremy himself. They're all just yelling at eachother, causing more problems to develop.

I was wondering if there are any MTG players on this forum who are more clued into what exactly is going on, and why this ArchWarhammer dude seems to be trying to inject it into the 40K community? Is it all just a massive case of he-said, she-said combined with a ton of *expletive deleted* stirring?





 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

Welcome to the internet friend. I see you’ve discovered a full out flame war

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






TFG was banned from the community. Not sure why this is news?

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

 LordofHats wrote:
Welcome to the internet friend. I see you’ve discovered a full out flame war


Is that all this is? Because if so, both sides are failing at it pretty badly. It's kind of sad to watch from the outside, actually.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
TFG was banned from the community. Not sure why this is news?


TFG?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Togusa wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
Welcome to the internet friend. I see you’ve discovered a full out flame war


Is that all this is? Because if so, both sides are failing at it pretty badly. It's kind of sad to watch from the outside, actually.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
TFG was banned from the community. Not sure why this is news?


TFG? Which guy?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 05:28:52






 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell








See the hover text. That ing Guy. AKA someone who is not capable of behaving like an adult, and is a toxic presence in the community.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

 Peregrine wrote:


See the hover text. That ing Guy. AKA someone who is not capable of behaving like an adult, and is a toxic presence in the community.


Sorry, I didn't see it pop up. But, are you talking about the Magic Man, or the Warhammer dude? Or both?





 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Togusa wrote:
TFG? Which guy?


Jeremy Hambly.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council




USA

It has that feel to me. Someone who follows the guy probably knows more but I heard about it and registered the whole thing as a bunch of screaming woobies.

TFG = that f’ing guy a sort of short hand for obnoxious or unlikeable players in table top gaming.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






As for ArchWarhammer, it's harder to find any short summary of that issue without wasting time watching his videos, but when one of your top google results involves doing a video with Sargon of Akkad* it's not exactly a good sign. I suspect that his involvement in this has to do with the same tired old SJW FEMINAZIS ARE RUINING GAMING nonsense.

*Rather well-known MRA and general .

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

 LordofHats wrote:
It has that feel to me. Someone who follows the guy probably knows more but I heard about it and registered the whole thing as a bunch of screaming woobies.

TFG = that f’ing guy a sort of short hand for obnoxious or unlikeable players in table top gaming.



What bothers me is the massive amount of "proof" being talked about, but never shown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Peregrine wrote:
As for ArchWarhammer, it's harder to find any short summary of that issue without wasting time watching his videos, but when one of your top google results involves doing a video with Sargon of Akkad* it's not exactly a good sign. I suspect that his involvement in this has to do with the same tired old SJW FEMINAZIS ARE RUINING GAMING nonsense.

*Rather well-known MRA and general .


I can't watch Arch's videos due to his format, so I typically don't. I also don't find his content to be all that interesting. I don't really care that much about his MRA views, I'm more concerned with the fact that WoTC basically took 1000s of dollars from him, instead of paying it back when they revoked his MTGO account. IF and I do mean IF that actually happened, I am very disappointed with WoTC. I can see that the guy is a first class A1 troll, there is no way he can deny that, and too my knowledge, he actually embraces that. Which I find strange.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 05:37:29






 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Togusa wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that WoTC basically took 1000s of dollars from him, instead of paying it back when they revoked his MTGO account.


WOTC did no such thing, because you don't own anything on MTGO. You merely gain access to the service, WOTC still owns all of the digital assets. People who believe otherwise about their online games because they don't read the TOS they agree to have only themselves to blame if they invest money in it and get banned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
From the TOS for MTGO:

In the Game, you will receive access to a library of licensed digital objects that depict physical Magic: The Gathering trading cards ("Digital Objects"). By playing the Game, you receive a limited license for the right to use such Digital Objects solely for the purpose of playing the Game.

...

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in this User Agreement, you acknowledge and agree that you currently do not and will not acquire ownership in your Accounts and/or Digital Objects, and you further acknowledge and agree that all rights in and to the same shall forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Wizards (its successors and assigns).

...

Wizards does not recognize any purported transfers or sales of Digital Objects, event tickets or other virtual assets outside of the Software. Accordingly, you are strictly prohibited from selling, gifting (except as permitted herein) or exchanging Digital Objects, event tickets or other virtual Game items for currency or other value outside of the Game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/09 05:44:09


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

 Peregrine wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
I'm more concerned with the fact that WoTC basically took 1000s of dollars from him, instead of paying it back when they revoked his MTGO account.


WOTC did no such thing, because you don't own anything on MTGO. You merely gain access to the service, WOTC still owns all of the digital assets. People who believe otherwise about their online games because they don't read the TOS they agree to have only themselves to blame if they invest money in it and get banned.


I didn't mean the cards, supposedly he had actual money that had been made from selling cards that they absconded with. I don't play MTGO so I am unsure what that might mean or how "selling" digital cards would even work.





 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Togusa wrote:
I didn't mean the cards, supposedly he had actual money that had been made from selling cards that they absconded with. I don't play MTGO so I am unsure what that might mean or how "selling" digital cards would even work.


That is not possible, as any "sale" of digital cards for real-world money is against the TOS and only possible by going outside the game without involving WOTC at all. WOTC would never have access to any money he made, as any (illegal) buyer would have been sending the money directly to him. Closing his MTGO account would have nothing to do with this.

(Now, I suppose it could in theory be possible that WOTC reported his illegal activity to his bank/paypal/whatever, and the bank decided to seize the illegal funds, but again, he would have only himself to blame in that case.)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 05:48:40


Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

 Peregrine wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
I didn't mean the cards, supposedly he had actual money that had been made from selling cards that they absconded with. I don't play MTGO so I am unsure what that might mean or how "selling" digital cards would even work.


That is not possible, as any "sale" of digital cards for real-world money is against the TOS and only possible by going outside the game without involving WOTC at all. WOTC would never have access to any money he made, as any (illegal) buyer would have been sending the money directly to him.


See this is helpful because it shows that one of his major points is BS. I quit playing magic three years ago due to how abusive the games core system is (It's basically legal gambling in my opinion) combined with a terrible community. And even back then, I never did the whole MTGO thing.

So, I guess a follow-up question is does anyone know what actual threats this guy made to that cosplayer, which is supposed to be what actually started this whole mess to begin with.





 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




orem, Utah

watch jeremy's video on the evidence, it basically followed
shows him trolling,bullying, and targeting people.
next he says nothing of substance was there.
his banning led to nothing lost from the MTG community, he even defends michael woo's facebook group and post that got him the year ban.

are you going to keep talking about it, or do something already? 
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Toxic people gets banned for toxic behaviour all the time. I did watch some youtube videos of archwarhammer back in the day, about warhammer lore. He was funny, like reading 4chan wiki. But with the alt right movement his videos where more political, and even the fluff ones had a ton of political stuff, like caling the ogre kingdom gnoblars "house nig..." you know.
He saw a niche, I suppose, as the "leader" of the alt right in the warhammer community, and he has taken advantage of it.
But to be honest, he doesnt even know that much about lore,. Is obvious he just reads wikis. ProphetOfSotek or Milkandcookies, for example, those guys know their stuff, but more about fantasy than 40k.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Best I get figure Jeremy said some mean things on Twitter about a female cosplayer Christine Sprankles about six months ago

Ms Sprankles life recently hit a few bumps which she then tweeted this was Jeremy fault

Then a large proportion of WoTC's inner circle of YT shills dogpiled a witch-hunt onto Jeremy, then for some reason WoTC more or less sanctioned this by wading in and banning him from sanctioned events for life

It's now become a drama BBQ but Magic cards are still being printed like plop and there are convicted felons on the Pro-Tour so all is fine

PS I don't care which 'side' you are on but if we have any MTG lurkers please please e-mail WoTC directly and let your veiwpoint be known don't let a few Klaxons on either side warp WoTC idea of 'the community'

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/12/09 11:31:28


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Fighter Pilot





In a Desert Exile

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Best I get figure Jeremy said some mean things on Twitter about a female cosplayer Christine Sprankles about six months ago

Ms Sprankles life recently hit a few bumps which she then tweeted this was Jeremy fault

Then a large proportion of WoTC's inner circle of YT shills dogpiled a witch-hunt onto Jeremy, then for some reason WoTC more or less sanctioned this by wading in and banning him from sanctioned events for life

It's now become a drama BBQ but Magic cards are still being printed like plop and there are convicted felons on the Pro-Tour so all is fine

PS I don't care which 'side' you are on but if we have any MTG lurkers please please e-mail WoTC directly and let your veiwpoint be known don't let a few Klaxons on either side warp WoTC idea of 'the community'


This is what I have heard as well. Finding actual evidence of harassment from either side has been hard though. A lot of the tweets I've seen, In my opinion are just silly. Sticks and stones, you know





 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





this is the Intertubes, evidence is irrelevant...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/10 11:04:01


"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in au
Crazed Zealot




Australia

The sad thing is that WoC can give lifetime bans when the comments are not made on official sites or venues. The evidence against Jeremy seems flimsy at best, I think at worst a warning should have been issued before the ban.

The only reality that matters is mine. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

I doubt Wizards of the Coast issues lifetime bans without any thought going into it; and whilst I don't expect a police level of enquiry (since they are just a card game manufacturer not the police with warrants and such), I do expect that there's likely more to this than just someone complaining and getting someone on a lifetime ban.

Also don't forget that with situations like this much of the evidence can be deleted after the effect. There's more than a few people who have gone on a huge insult spree, only to delete much of it from public view before it gains mass attention (normally after they get punished for it). Plus there's personal communications that we don't see either. It's why some forum groups operate time limits on editing posts in threads, in order to prevent people going back to change what they said to get out of trouble or save face in public (even though mods/admin can always see changes).


In general situations like this are always messy and when you moderate them you can often see that its all purely childish behaviour. You also get people who will push at insulting and at the boundaries of what they can get away with; often building up a long history of minor infractions and issues. So the item that breaks the camels back might not seem ban worthy enough, but if you then look at the persons history things change. We've also no idea about this persons real life behaviour at WotC events which might also have played a part.

In addition the comments regarding the sale of cards might also have been a factor; ergo the attention from this insult event made WotC look at this persons account and, if there wre activity against their ToS then that too would have factored into things. Heck if he has been trading when he shouldn't have that might have been what landed him the ban.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Ecclesiarch 616 wrote:
The sad thing is that WoC can give lifetime bans when the comments are not made on official sites or venues.


Why is it sad? The venue of inappropriate behavior doesn't matter, if someone is the sort of person who would do inappropriate things outside of official sites then there's no reason to allow them to participate in official events either.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Jeremy clearly sets out to push buttons but for WoTC to decide to play internet police is questionable at best, if this happened at an actual Magic event then no problem at all but on non-WoTC social media, thats one heck of an over-reach

The Magic Online issue is admittedly covered by the EULA/TOS but the uneven handed nature of their application of their own rules make it look a tad rubbing salt in, a quick google shows lots of 3rd partys selling MTGO cards and tickets (the in game currency) but no action ever appears to be taken as this would cost time and money and the sales income Wizards makes from these 3rd partys

Unfortunately WoTC do give undue preference to the views of the 'positive' parts of the community, they don't do this out of any sense of right or fairness but rather they think this drives sales, maybe they need to examine how well that went for GW and course correct

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

Thing is Wizards might well shut down many of those sale groups; but the groups just get new accounts and continue on - their off-site sales sites don't have to change names or anything; and like as not they already have a large legion of sub-accounts that they use to keep their business going.

Often as not its my experience that unless it relates directly to a person or toward a situation they are involved in; most users don't really see much moderation take place. They don't see the discussions with troublemakers; they don't see the spam removed (unless it gets past auto filters and lasts long enough to be spotted); they don't often as not see punishments handed out etc....
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Bird from Hell






 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Jeremy clearly sets out to push buttons but for WoTC to decide to play internet police is questionable at best, if this happened at an actual Magic event then no problem at all but on non-WoTC social media, thats one heck of an over-reach


Why is it an over-reach? You said it yourself, he sets out to push buttons, and he succeeded in pushing the "we don't need people like that at our events" button. The fact that he didn't do it at an official WOTC event is trying to hide behind a loophole, not a genuine defense of his character.

The Magic Online issue is admittedly covered by the EULA/TOS but the uneven handed nature of their application of their own rules make it look a tad rubbing salt in, a quick google shows lots of 3rd partys selling MTGO cards and tickets (the in game currency) but no action ever appears to be taken as this would cost time and money and the sales income Wizards makes from these 3rd partys


Alternatively, MTGO suffers from the same third-party seller issue that every online game has. It's trivially easy to make new accounts to sell from faster than WOTC can ban them, so even the most determined game owner isn't going to ever stop the illegal market. And, again, "but they did it to" is not a compelling defense of his character. If he broke the rules he gets no sympathy for his "losses".

Unfortunately WoTC do give undue preference to the views of the 'positive' parts of the community, they don't do this out of any sense of right or fairness but rather they think this drives sales, maybe they need to examine how well that went for GW and course correct


There is a distinct difference between removing people who are guilty of harassment and other unacceptable behavior and removing people who are negative. This is a case of WOTC expecting people to behave like mature adults, not enforcing positivity. There are plenty of people who criticize WOTC without getting lifetime bans.

Laying low in a blood filled trench
Kill time 'til my very own death
On my face I can feel the falling rain
Never see my friends again

In the smoke, in the mud and lead
Smell the fear and the feeling of dread
Soon be time to go over the wall
Rapid fire and end of us all


SELL ME YOUR FORGEWORLD ATLAS 
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





Fair points Mr P, I think its WoTC apparent inconsistencies in what is considered bannable that I find grump inducing, of course their house their rules, although this whole thing has sidetracked everyone from the card quality issue

As for MTGO its a terrible bit of trashware that should have had an MMO style sub service and cards locked to accounts but that would have been lots of moneys rather than all the moneys

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine




Texas

Saw a post about this on BoLS and read some of the comments posted there which got really heated with some stuff bordering on being actionable.

As several have said, it is hard to sort out the truth, but it seems there is enough "smoke" to conclude there is a fire.

Regardless, I sit in the camp that a business has the right to decide who they wish to conduct business with and in the case of WotC, they reinforced their right to unilaterally cease doing business with anyone with their TOS.

In short, if you want to have the privilege of participating in WotC events and using their products on their servers and at their events, then you have to play by their rules regardless of where you are at.

If I was running a business, and I learned that one of my customers was toxic everywhere else, I would probably look to "fire" that customer as I would not want to my business to be in anyway attached to that behavior or be seen to be passively accepting of that behavior because I continue to do business with that individual.

I think as individuals that we all have to realize that when we act in the public space, it is public, and that you can be held accountable for that. It is one of the long standing mechanisms that societies throughout the history of civilization have used to "correct" socially unacceptable behavior.

This of course assumes the accusation being made is legitimate and not someone's unscrupulous attempt to libel and/or slander someone as a way of striking out at that person for some perceived slight, to exercise power over that person, or gain an advantage by discrediting the individual and/or forcing their removal/withdrawal from a contested position. It is in these circumstances that businesses must be careful that they exercise their right to refuse to do business with someone less they do harm to their own reputation and lose the wider trust and respect of the majority of their customers.

"Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words." ~ St. Francis of Assisi 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




orem, Utah

Honestly his twitter feed was likely a huge part against him. he still holds to the claim that they stole thousands from his, and even called the lawyers he talked to about suing uneducated (well he inferred). He seems to feel like he can do no wrong, MTG is better off without him imo

are you going to keep talking about it, or do something already? 
   
Made in gr
Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

Ah glad to see it go political from first page as it has been on every single reference and article of the event.

Lines are drawn evidence are irrelevant, precedents and worries about it are irrelevant.

First of all to clear a few things Arch Warhammer has done the biggest service to warhamer franchise than most in the recent years, he has indeed created magnificent lore videos that explained the warhammer lore (pre destruction) that was truly good but impossible to find and explains 40k lore in a consistent way that makes sense if nothing else he is the only one I have seen to explain how warp works and why the ridiculousness of GWs lore makes sense in their universe, sometimes I feel he has better grasp of the franchise than the recent GW authors do.

He also has political views, as does everybody in here and stands for what he perceives moral and right in his own view, you may agree with his political view, you may disagree, you do the same as he does, express your political views, ultimately all opinions are valid and should be respected as opinions and everybody has the right to accept them as a whole or in part or reject them as a whole or in part.

I have seen him been accused of many things especially "misogyny" but I have seen no evidence of it, the worse I can accuse him is been conscious that the segment that oppose him politically are enraged by references as the aforementioned phrase a few posts above (that makes sense and can be considered funny within the context of the entire video) and uses them to enrage people who oppose him ideologically.

Surely a non "politically correct" behavior, but who really should care about it?

So give the man some credit for his work, he has managed to make even a bitter, disenfranchised old veteran such as myself actually care again about warhammer and 40k lore.

Now who he befriends with should be irrelevant, we are judging people as individuals and their ideas and ideologies on per case basis as adults right?

Now on the MTG HQ VS WOTC is a murky situation at best that brings up so many issues at the same time that feels overwhelming

First of all is indeed the digital collection and a sudden resurface of who the digital goods belong to and what rights a person has ownership to, terms of service mean nothing if they are illegal and as steam has learned a few years ago saying the games belong to it even in the terms of service does not make it so.

I stand firmly on the side that digital goods should be covered by the same terms physical goods are and ownership belongs to the buyer. Yes, it is complicated and yes, it gets even more complicated for online products, but lawmakers are payed good money to fix these issues instead of leaving them in limbo a couple of decades now.

Second is indeed is at what extend does a private company have rights to limit access to individuals for their goods and services on the grounds of their ideology and behavior outside their premises. I can understand a repeated troublemaker on their events that causes problems is a valid reason to limit access or ask from the state to give a restrictive order to said individual, but banning an individual on the grounds of what they say or do in their private life? That is ideological racism and you really cannot paint it in any other colour.

Personally I do not believe companies can or should take the law in their hand and decide what behavior outside their premise is acceptable or not from individuals, what people do outside their venues is their personal life and companies should have no right pocking in the personal life of people.

On the subject I was under the impression under the protection of private information (sp) giving out the personal details of an individual is illegal.

Finally I think that regardless of the above a company should be consistent and I value consistency on people and entities, L3 judge caught to actually sexually harass a player? striped of judge status no ban can reapply for L1 if WOTC thinks sufficient time has passed and shows good behavior, top player caught cheating on an actual event? 6 months ban, top player hosting a private FB group were things are said in private 1 year ban, someone expressing harsh opinions about others again not in their venues? Lifetime ban.

I am troubled by people and gaming news sites such as spikey bits and BOLS jumping so freely to support such decision, the wider implications of applauding such decision is allowing a corporation to dictate what you think (especially in your private life) in order to allow you access to their goods. The though is at the very least troubling, it is discriminatory and sets an oppressive precedent allowing corporations to have power that should only be in the hands of justice.
   
Made in gb
Screaming Shining Spear





 Turnip Jedi wrote:
this is the Intertubes, evidence is irrelevant...


Just to clarify for the sarcasm/irony impaired this was a joke, I find the whole 'listen and (dis)believe' meme redonkulus regardless of which side uses it

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
 
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