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Does the Eldar 'Forwarned' strategem get affected by character's targeting rule?

Example:
1. The usual setup of Reapers with a Farseer on one side.
2. A single enemy character arrives from reserves (for example a Vindicare Assassin, or a Space Marine character with jump pack). The character is set up within LOS of the Reapers, but it is not the closest enemy unit to them.

Can the Reapers shoot at that character, using the Forwarned stratagem?

In the game this came up, we went with No, because it seemed unfair. But just reading the text of the stratagem, it does not mention any restrictions.

Edit (add Forwarned text for clarification):
FOREWARNED
Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD> units that is
itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER.
Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it
were the Shooting phase.

I do not have an eldar codex. Does forewarned allow you to shoot in your opponent's phase when deepstrikers arrive? If so...
The character rule involves the shooting phase and targeting (BRB 179) only. Outside of the shooting phase the characters and non- targeting does not apply.

My gut instinct is that normal rules apply.

It states "as if it were in the Shooting Phase" - and the inability to target a character rule I believe states explicitly that they cannot be targeted in the shooting phase.

"A Character
can only be chosen as a target in
the Shooting phase if they are the
closest visible enemy unit to the
model that is shooting...."

Yep, that's how it is stated. I do believe you apply all the rules of a normal Shooting Phase, including the inability to target characters. Now...that being said, if a character deepstrikes nearby it may well be the nearest visible enemy model.

 Elbows wrote:
My gut instinct is that normal rules apply.

It states "as if it were in the Shooting Phase" - and the inability to target a character rule I believe states explicitly that they cannot be targeted in the shooting phase.

"A Character
can only be chosen as a target in
the Shooting phase if they are the
closest visible enemy unit to the
model that is shooting...."

Yep, that's how it is stated. I do believe you apply all the rules of a normal Shooting Phase, including the inability to target characters. Now...that being said, if a character deepstrikes nearby it may well be the nearest visible enemy model.

Edited: hmmm, initially agreed, but as others later pointed out, this gives express permission to target something... so I'm going with 'this Stratagem overrides the restriction'.

Regular shooting rules still apply for the dark reapers, even with forewarned. The targeting character rule also applies. Shooting "as if it were the shooting phase" doesnt make it the shooting phase. Its the end of the opponent movement phase. However, the targeting character rule has been changed in CA. Before CA the reapers would have been able to shoot the character because its not the shooting phase.

The targeting characters rule from CA says :

"An enemy CHARACTER with less than 10 wounds can only be targeted if it is both visible to the firer and it is the closest enemy model to the firer. This means that if any other enemy model is closer, whether it is visible or not, then the enemy CHARACTER cannot be targeted."

 Elbows wrote:
My gut instinct is that normal rules apply.

It states "as if it were in the Shooting Phase" - and the inability to target a character rule I believe states explicitly that they cannot be targeted in the shooting phase.

"A Character
can only be chosen as a target in
the Shooting phase if they are the
closest visible enemy unit to the
model that is shooting...."

Yep, that's how it is stated. I do believe you apply all the rules of a normal Shooting Phase, including the inability to target characters. Now...that being said, if a character deepstrikes nearby it may well be the nearest visible enemy model.

How ever the stratagem changes the target step, so you're not following the normal target rules.

New CA update to character targeting means you cannot. It's pretty definitive.

It says "as if it were the Shooting phase" so I'd say no, you can't. I don't see any language skipping targeting.

Audustum wrote:
It says "as if it were the Shooting phase" so I'd say no, you can't. I don't see any language skipping targeting.

FOREWARNED
Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD> units that is
itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER.
Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it
were the Shooting phase.

This bit does. It says you can shoot the 'deep striking' unit.

It doesn't skip targeting. it just picks your target for you.

"as if it were the Shooting phase" is pretty clear. You can target the char if he's the closest, otherwise no.

It's an interesting one!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It says "as if it were the Shooting phase" so I'd say no, you can't. I don't see any language skipping targeting.

FOREWARNED
Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD> units that is
itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER.
Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it
were the Shooting phase.

This bit does. It says you can shoot the 'deep striking' unit.

You can shoot at the enemy as if it were the shooting, so you still have to be able to target it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's an interesting one!

Yes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:
"as if it were the Shooting phase" is pretty clear. You can target the char if he's the closest, otherwise no.

Agreed.

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:
It says "as if it were the Shooting phase" so I'd say no, you can't. I don't see any language skipping targeting.

FOREWARNED
Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up
a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements
within sight of one of your <CRAFTWORLD> units that is
itself within 6" of a friendly <CRAFTWORLD> FARSEER.
Your unit can immediately shoot at that enemy unit as if it
were the Shooting phase.

This bit does. It says you can shoot the 'deep striking' unit.

You can shoot at the enemy as if it were the shooting, so you still have to be able to target it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It's an interesting one!

Yes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:
"as if it were the Shooting phase" is pretty clear. You can target the char if he's the closest, otherwise no.

Agreed.

That would also mean that you can't overwatch characters if there are other enemy units closer

terry wrote:

That would also mean that you can't overwatch characters if there are other enemy units closer

Thats right. GW could simply say no, you cannot shoot a character, never ever.

p5freak wrote:

terry wrote:

That would also mean that you can't overwatch characters if there are other enemy units closer

Thats right. GW could simply say no, you cannot shoot a character, never ever.

Except you *can* fire Overwatch at them.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

terry wrote:

That would also mean that you can't overwatch characters if there are other enemy units closer

Thats right. GW could simply say no, you cannot shoot a character, never ever.

Except you *can* fire Overwatch at them.

I know. But not if an enemy unit is closer, which doesnt even have to be visible. Shooting characters already has so much restrictions, it would be easier to simply say that you cannot ever fire at them.

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

terry wrote:

That would also mean that you can't overwatch characters if there are other enemy units closer

Thats right. GW could simply say no, you cannot shoot a character, never ever.

Except you *can* fire Overwatch at them.

I know. But not if an enemy unit is closer, which doesnt even have to be visible. Shooting characters already has so much restrictions, it would be easier to simply say that you cannot ever fire at them.

I don't take the CA update to override the FAQ Overwatch permission. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my take is it's an update to the Shooting Phase targeting rules, not Overwatch denial.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

p5freak wrote:

terry wrote:

That would also mean that you can't overwatch characters if there are other enemy units closer

Thats right. GW could simply say no, you cannot shoot a character, never ever.

Except you *can* fire Overwatch at them.

I know. But not if an enemy unit is closer, which doesnt even have to be visible. Shooting characters already has so much restrictions, it would be easier to simply say that you cannot ever fire at them.

I don't take the CA update to override the FAQ Overwatch permission. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but my take is it's an update to the Shooting Phase targeting rules, not Overwatch denial.

so whats the difference between overwatch and forwarned? Both abilities allow you to shoot at a specific unit that is triggered by and action made by that unit

terry wrote:

so whats the difference between overwatch and forwarned? Both abilities allow you to shoot at a specific unit that is triggered by and action made by that unit

Forwarned allows the unit to shoot at regular ballistic skill, with modifiers. Overwatch only hits on 6, ignoring any modifiers, and ballistic skill.

p5freak wrote:

terry wrote:

so whats the difference between overwatch and forwarned? Both abilities allow you to shoot at a specific unit that is triggered by and action made by that unit

Forwarned allows the unit to shoot at regular ballistic skill, with modifiers. Overwatch only hits on 6, ignoring any modifiers, and ballistic skill.

but besides that

Simply put, Overwatch is, by definition, not carried out in the Shooting Phase.

In the rules Overwatch just states that it is resolved "like a normal shooting attack", but it is not resolved "like in the Shooting Phase", etc. Minor, nitpicky difference but one which applies here.

As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

Audustum wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

The Stratagem says you shoot the thing that just appeared near you. That's inescapably written in the Stratagem.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

The Stratagem says you shoot the thing that just appeared near you. That's inescapably written in the Stratagem.

"As if it were the shooting phase". It didn't write you a blank check, it put a condition on it.

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

The Stratagem says you shoot the thing that just appeared near you. That's inescapably written in the Stratagem.

"As if it were the shooting phase". It didn't write you a blank check, it put a condition on it.

As if it were the Shooting Phase gives you instructions on how to carry out the shot, but how do you reconcile the start bit saying you can shoot the unit you're playing it to shoot? Specific exceptions override Core Rules all the time, this feels like one to me. YMMV

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

The Stratagem says you shoot the thing that just appeared near you. That's inescapably written in the Stratagem.

"As if it were the shooting phase". It didn't write you a blank check, it put a condition on it.

As if it were the Shooting Phase gives you instructions on how to carry out the shot, but how do you reconcile the start bit saying you can shoot the unit you're playing it to shoot? Specific exceptions override Core Rules all the time, this feels like one to me. YMMV

It's a fair argument, but I feel specific also has to be EXPLICIT and here it's not. We have an interpretation that is useful and does not invalidated either the Stratagem or the core rules. You can shoot a unit and you can shoot a character if it's closest. So that's the proper interpretation.

Look at it this way, the Stratagem doesn't say the enemy has to be in range of your unit's weapon either, but we don't assume "your unit can immediately shoot" overrides the range requirement. There's no reason for it to override the Character rule either.

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

The Stratagem says you shoot the thing that just appeared near you. That's inescapably written in the Stratagem.

"As if it were the shooting phase". It didn't write you a blank check, it put a condition on it.

As if it were the Shooting Phase gives you instructions on how to carry out the shot, but how do you reconcile the start bit saying you can shoot the unit you're playing it to shoot? Specific exceptions override Core Rules all the time, this feels like one to me. YMMV

It's a fair argument, but I feel specific also has to be EXPLICIT and here it's not. We have an interpretation that is useful and does not invalidated either the Stratagem or the core rules. You can shoot a unit and you can shoot a character if it's closest. So that's the proper interpretation.

Look at it this way, the Stratagem doesn't say the enemy has to be in range of your unit's weapon either, but we don't assume "your unit can immediately shoot" overrides the range requirement. There's no reason for it to override the Character rule either.

I disagree, but cool, let's not have a 9 page circular thread like they all seem to be these days!

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
As far as the stratagems wording, you can shoot the deep striking unit. Thats the only rule. just because the Unit is a character does not eliminate a stratagems ability.

It's the Stratagem that limits the Stratagem. The Stratagem itself says act like it's the shooting phase.

The Stratagem says you shoot the thing that just appeared near you. That's inescapably written in the Stratagem.

"As if it were the shooting phase". It didn't write you a blank check, it put a condition on it.

As if it were the Shooting Phase gives you instructions on how to carry out the shot, but how do you reconcile the start bit saying you can shoot the unit you're playing it to shoot? Specific exceptions override Core Rules all the time, this feels like one to me. YMMV

It's a fair argument, but I feel specific also has to be EXPLICIT and here it's not. We have an interpretation that is useful and does not invalidated either the Stratagem or the core rules. You can shoot a unit and you can shoot a character if it's closest. So that's the proper interpretation.

Look at it this way, the Stratagem doesn't say the enemy has to be in range of your unit's weapon either, but we don't assume "your unit can immediately shoot" overrides the range requirement. There's no reason for it to override the Character rule either.

I disagree, but cool, let's not have a 9 page circular thread like they all seem to be these days!

But I LIKE doing that!