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2017/12/11 07:45:35
Subject: Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Furious Fire Dragon
USA
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I know I've seen somewhere on dakka that a marine using a thunderhammer who is affected by a blood chalice counts as S10 instead of S9. The main rules state the addition happens after multiplication but I cant seem to find the reference which explained why S10 was correct. Does anyone know which rule would making S10 correct?
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We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
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2017/12/11 07:47:10
Subject: Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Norn Queen
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mokoshkana wrote:I know I've seen somewhere on dakka that a marine using a thunderhammer who is affected by a blood chalice counts as S10 instead of S9. The main rules state the addition happens after multiplication but I cant seem to find the reference which explained why S10 was correct. Does anyone know which rule would making S10 correct?
Ah! It should be 9. however the Blood Chalice doesn't say to +1 to strength, it says to increase the base characteristic by 1. So a Marine with a Thunder hammer in range of the chalice is S5. This is what has confused people. That being said, the rulebook is clear they are S9. "You may also encounter abilities and rules that modify a characteristic. All modifiers are cumulative, though you should apply any multiplication or division to the characteristic (rounding fractions up) before applying any addition or subtraction." "If a weapon lists a modifier such as ‘+1’ or ‘x2’, you should modify the user’s current Strength characteristic as shown to determine the weapon’s Strength." There is a consistent usage of the word "Modify".
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2017/12/11 07:51:51
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2017/12/11 08:48:26
Subject: Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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BaconCatBug wrote:Ah! It should be 9. however the Blood Chalice doesn't say to +1 to strength, it says to increase the base characteristic by 1. So a Marine with a Thunder hammer in range of the chalice is S5. This is what has confused people.
Unless I'm missing something, looking at the codex Blood Chalice does say it increases the units' Strength characteristic by 1 whilst within range so there should be no confusion and it should indeed by S9 with addition occurring after multiplication as you say.
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2017/12/11 09:36:16
Subject: Re:Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.
Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
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If Khorne needs blood, will drown him in his own blood!
If Slaanesh wants pleasure, then we´ll give him DEATH, the greatest pleasure known to man!
If Tzeentch asks for forbidden knowledge, then we will enlighten him with fear of The God Machine!
If Nurgle wants us to embrace rebirth, then to hell with that, the Guard embrace Death, we live to DIE! |
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2017/12/11 09:39:59
Subject: Re:Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Zeshi wrote:Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.
Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
Agree S10 is correct as per the Designer's Commentary. Similarly Catachans with a Power Fist are S8.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 09:43:13
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2017/12/11 09:53:33
Subject: Re:Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Norn Queen
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Zeshi wrote:Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength? A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic. For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10. Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
Huh, well how bout dat. Totally missed that question. Special Snowflake FAQs are awesome! So yeah, they are S10.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 09:53:48
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2017/12/11 09:56:19
Subject: Re:Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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BaconCatBug wrote: Zeshi wrote:Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.
Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
Huh, well how bout dat. Totally missed that question.
Special Snowflake FAQs are awesome!
So yeah, they are S10.
It's not 'special snowflake', it's arriving at one stat using the Modifiers system, then using it with a weapon that modifies it (secondary use of modifiers).
Think of it as bracketed formula rather than trying to mash base S stat and weapon S into one inaccurate sum.
It's entirely logical, and consistent with the core rules.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 10:02:05
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2017/12/11 19:17:37
Subject: Re:Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Fresh-Faced New User
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EDIT: Someone beat me to it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 19:18:34
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2017/12/11 19:43:35
Subject: Re:Blood Chalice with Thunderhammer
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote: BaconCatBug wrote: Zeshi wrote:Designer's Commentary wrote:Q: If a rule modifies a model’s Strength characteristic, and that model is equipped with a melee weapon that also has a modifier (e.g. ‘x2’), could you explain the order in which the modifiers are applied to the characteristics and the weapon’s Strength?
A: First you must determine the model’s current Strength characteristic. To do so apply all modifiers to it that multiply or divide the value, then apply any that add or subtract to it. Having done this, you then modify this value as described by he weapon’s Strength characteristic.
For example, let’s imagine a model with a basic Strength characteristic of 3 is under the effects of two psychic powers: a friendly one that doubles their Strength characteristic, and an enemy one that subtracts 1 from their Strength characteristic. That model’s current Strength is therefore 5. If this model then fights with a weapon like a power fist, which has a Strength characteristic of ‘x2’, that attack will therefore be resolved at Strength 10.
Wouldn't it S10 with the rule of Blood Chalice like in the example above?
Huh, well how bout dat. Totally missed that question.
Special Snowflake FAQs are awesome!
So yeah, they are S10.
It's not 'special snowflake', it's arriving at one stat using the Modifiers system, then using it with a weapon that modifies it (secondary use of modifiers).
Think of it as bracketed formula rather than trying to mash base S stat and weapon S into one inaccurate sum.
It's entirely logical, and consistent with the core rules.
And it's pretty much how things worked in previous editions too. If something said it changed the profile, you took care of the profile before applying weapon and situational modifiers (such as Furious charge). Agreed that it's not "special snowflake" and it's logical when you stop and think about it.
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