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So, I may be a bit late to the party on this one, but the Grey Knight audio drama "Incorruptible" had me rather concerned.

Not sure whether to spoiler, so I will, but the whole gist of it is that a Grey Knight Purifier's ship loses contact with the rest of the fleet. When a team of Terminators goes in to find out what's wrong, they find that
Is this just terrible writing, or what?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, I may be a bit late to the party on this one, but the Grey Knight audio drama "Incorruptible" had me rather concerned.

Not sure whether to spoiler, so I will, but the whole gist of it is that a Grey Knight Purifier's ship loses contact with the rest of the fleet. When a team of Terminators goes in to find out what's wrong, they find that

Spoiler:

there's a Genestealer infestation aboard, about 60-70 odd of the things, have overwhelmed the 10 Purifiers aboard the vessel, leaving nearly all of the Purifiers dead, barring one, who is mind-controlled by them.

I can't be the only one who thinks this a bit contrived? We have a Genestealer brood popping up out of nowhere on a Grey Knight's ship (not a space hulk, their own ship), enough time passing for a sizable force of Genestealers to amass without the Grey Knights noticing, these same Grey Knight Purifiers being overrun by six times their number (note that the Ultramarines 1st Company, the Blood Angels Terminators from Space Hulk and the Blood Drinkers and Novamarines Terminators from Death of Integrity ALL have better K: D ratios than 6:1 - in Death of Integrity, it's 53:1) and one of these Grey Knight PURIFIERS (the purest of the pure) is mind-controlled, something we've never seen before from Genestealers. We already know that the Kiss doesn't work, seen in Space Hulk and other novels, but we've not seen Genestealers mentally control any other Space Marine, psychic or not - and yet here, they can seemingly do it to one of the most elite, well-defended, INCORRUPTIBLE of their number?

We know Tyranid psychic powers come from the Warp, they draw from it in the same way, so how come all the Grey Knight's psychic wards don't work? Is this just a case of "Chaos doesn't work, but Xenos psychic powers do"? That's kinda stupid if so.

Is this just terrible writing, or what?

Well Tyranids draw power from the Hive Mind not the Warp and they're incorruptible not invulnerable. They don't fall to Chaos but they're basically as vulnerable to psychic powers as any other psychic marine.

pm713 wrote:
Well Tyranids draw power from the Hive Mind not the Warp and they're incorruptible not invulnerable. They don't fall to Chaos but they're basically as vulnerable to psychic powers as any other psychic marine.

Aren't Genestealers detached from the Hive Mind? And secondly, where does the Hive Mind draw psychic energy from, if not the Warp?

Again, incorruptible implies a resistance to mind control. Invulnerable would be true if it was against a psychic blast or "witchfire" attack, like lightning or a beam, or even just clouding the mind, but mind control? Why has Chaos never mind controlled a Grey Knight then?

I don't see how a Grey Knight can be just as vulnerable - their own force of will, their specialised training to ward off psychic attacks, the wards built into their armour to specifically ward psychic attentions? These should all indicate a resistance to psychic attacks far beyond any other Librarian. Hence their whole "incorruptible" shtick.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Well Tyranids draw power from the Hive Mind not the Warp and they're incorruptible not invulnerable. They don't fall to Chaos but they're basically as vulnerable to psychic powers as any other psychic marine.

Aren't Genestealers detached from the Hive Mind? And secondly, where does the Hive Mind draw psychic energy from, if not the Warp?

Again, incorruptible implies a resistance to mind control. Invulnerable would be true if it was against a psychic blast or "witchfire" attack, like lightning or a beam, or even just clouding the mind, but mind control? Why has Chaos never mind controlled a Grey Knight then?

I don't see how a Grey Knight can be just as vulnerable - their own force of will, their specialised training to ward off psychic attacks, the wards built into their armour to specifically ward psychic attentions? These should all indicate a resistance to psychic attacks far beyond any other Librarian. Hence their whole "incorruptible" shtick.

They draw it from the psychic energy of the Hive Mind completely separate from Chaosy junk.

Implies yes but GK incorruptibility is specifically about never falling to Chaos because it's their whole thing. No reason for them to be immune to mind control.

They have special wards, training and methods yes but it's all centered around resisting Chaos. Anti Chaos wards, training to fight Daemons and anti Daemon equipment. They're better against Chaos than a standard Librarian but against something like Eldar or Tyranids they should be the same.

Okay:

1. The Hive Mind uses and is part of the Warp. It's just the mass collective of Tyranid minds. It is not some god or independent entity (ala the Overmind for the Zerg).

2. Grey Knight armor runes are inscribed against Chaos specifically, pretty sure. Not going to help with Tyranids.

3. Grey Knights are not Witch Hunter's (despite the old Codex name). Sisters of Battle help Hereticus with Psykers, GK specifically help Malleus with Daemons.

4. A Purifier probably has no more protection against Tyranid psychic powers than a Librarian with really strong willpower and intense training, do a lot but not invincible. It's not all that crazy to think they got him.

5. The terrible KDA was probably to reflect that Purifiers suck in 8th!

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Well Tyranids draw power from the Hive Mind not the Warp and they're incorruptible not invulnerable. They don't fall to Chaos but they're basically as vulnerable to psychic powers as any other psychic marine.

Aren't Genestealers detached from the Hive Mind? And secondly, where does the Hive Mind draw psychic energy from, if not the Warp?

Again, incorruptible implies a resistance to mind control. Invulnerable would be true if it was against a psychic blast or "witchfire" attack, like lightning or a beam, or even just clouding the mind, but mind control? Why has Chaos never mind controlled a Grey Knight then?

I don't see how a Grey Knight can be just as vulnerable - their own force of will, their specialised training to ward off psychic attacks, the wards built into their armour to specifically ward psychic attentions? These should all indicate a resistance to psychic attacks far beyond any other Librarian. Hence their whole "incorruptible" shtick.

They draw it from the psychic energy of the Hive Mind completely separate from Chaosy junk.

Implies yes but GK incorruptibility is specifically about never falling to Chaos because it's their whole thing. No reason for them to be immune to mind control.

They have special wards, training and methods yes but it's all centered around resisting Chaos. Anti Chaos wards, training to fight Daemons and anti Daemon equipment. They're better against Chaos than a standard Librarian but against something like Eldar or Tyranids they should be the same.

They draw they energy from the warp like every other paranormal or psychic event in 40k, but from the perspective of the narrator it comes from the hive mind, which resides in the warp, so as the only energy that can exist in the warp is warp energy, its still warp energy.

A lot of people get confused and think that Chaos = Warp, but this is not true, Chaos is the result of the sentient minds impact on the warp, this creates the vortexes of emotion that eventually make the Chaos Gods/Deamons etc.
another popular misconception is that the Warp Corrupts, it does and does not, its basically like a radiation that will seep into whatever enviroment it encounters, regardless of the form that enviroment takes, so sentient beings or rocks, it can all be irradiated for all intents and purposes, this then causes all kinds of odd things to happen, the more of this radiation that seeps into a person or area the easier it is for the creatures of the warp to also seep out as they cannot live without the "energy" that sustaines them, basically like humans if you take us into space, we wont last long.#

So to answer the question, Grey knights are designed to be resistant to the effects of the warp "radiation" but its not possible to be immune, they are also trained to resist the entities that reside within the warp, be this mentally or physically, this would also cause a knock on effect against any other warp based ability (Eldar, Tyranids, Orks etc.) as they would be more robust in defending against it.

Hope that helps.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why has Chaos never mind controlled a Grey Knight then?

I don't see why Chaos forces couldn't if sufficiently powerful. It's just really, really difficult and probably pretty much impossible if there's a group of them Psychically linked. Grey Knights would have to be highly resistant to Psychic powers for them to survive against non-Khornate Chaos forces.

I don't really see such a small Genestealer brood managing it. Was it a Patriarch or Magus or what?

Incorruptable doesn't mean you are immune to being overwhelmed. It means you will never voluntarily submit.

A Grey Knight can still be harmed by psychic powers, which could potentially control his body. But he will never submit and join the other side as a willing participant.

Grey Knights are resistant to psychic powers of course, so mindcontrolling one would be difficult.

This does beg the question are grey knights immune to the genstealer kiss?

Normal marines are not immune as I remember a short story where the last surviving terminator is held down and given the kiss, marines cannot reproduce as the will is chemically suppressed if I remember correctly but are they also chemically castrated? If they are then the Marine is just a big mind controlled cultist, if not it could produce some odd hybrids.

So are grey knights more resistant to such things I wonder.

I would say all these events are believable on paper. Considering the size of even the smallest ship used by the Imperium that are cabable of warp travel, a hundred people infected by genestealers is possible and difficult to detect since there would be at least 10 000 person on board beside the Grey Knights themselves and that's if they are on a very, very small warship. If they are on something like a Strike Cruiser or a frigate there would be around 50 000 crew members. A few hundred genetealer cultists might be able to keep a low profile in such a circomstances.

Genetealers being extremely stealthy creature who smuggle themselves frequently from planet to planet could have used a Grey Knight ship as a lifeboat. Warships like those of the Grey Knights could be suceptible to be infected since they travel a lot. While unlikely, it's possible in my opinion.

As for 60 genetealer killing ten elite Space Marines, I think it's perfectly plausible. Hell, I would have believed 6 genestealers could have done it if they managed to surprise the said elite Space Marine in close combat. If the Space Marines are well armed and can shoot on the damn thing who charge at them, they require high numbers to triumph, but in other circomstances, other results.

On the subject of the surviving Purifier being mind-controlled by the genetealer, I do find it puzzling. If there was a Patriarch amongst them, it would have been credible. The Grey Knights and Purifiers incorruptability is in regard to the forces of Chaos. I don't think they are immune to any sort of warp powers from lightning bolts to psychic flames. Their willpower must be enormous and they possess great knowledge on how daemons possess people which helps them triumph over them. It might be possible for another psyker to use a certain form of mind controll over a Purifier provided they aren't daemon-possessed. Even then, it's said that no Grey Knight ever fell to the power of Chaos. We don't know for sure if it only covers Grey Knight willingly turning to Chaos or both willing and unwilling conversion. In the same vein, only one Sister of Battle ever fell willingly to Chaos, but many more were mind controlled or even possessed. In resume, if there was a Patriarch I would say it's perfectly plausible, but if there is none, most certainly bs, unless the Purifer was comatose or on death door (if not outright dead) when he was mind-controlled.

They draw they energy from the warp like every other paranormal or psychic event in 40k, but from the perspective of the narrator it comes from the hive mind, which resides in the warp, so as the only energy that can exist in the warp is warp energy, its still warp energy.

1. The Hive Mind uses and is part of the Warp. It's just the mass collective of Tyranid minds. It is not some god or independent entity (ala the Overmind for the Zerg).

We know Tyranid psychic powers come from the Warp, they draw from it in the same way, s

Not sure where you guys are getting your fluff from but Im nearly certain nowhere within the Nid fluff does it state the Hive Mind is a warp entity, lives in the warp or draws its power from it.
Nid psychic powers are drawn from the will of the hive mind - its gestalt consciousness and the power that it creates itself. Old style perils of the warp and failed psychic tests are not from Nid creatures suffering daemonic attacks or being targetted by the Warp - they are from synaptic backlash, overloads and creatures basically frying their own brains with too much energy.

In addition Nids feel zero emotion so cannot have a foot print in the Warp - they are akin to Nulls in that sense - merely creating a shadow that shuts down warp/psychic activity but not actually existing within the warp.

The fact that Nid creatures have "warp fields", "warp blasts" etc is a carry over from old 2nd edition fluff thats basically never been updated.

 Formosa wrote:
This does beg the question are grey knights immune to the genstealer kiss?

Normal marines are not immune as I remember a short story where the last surviving terminator is held down and given the kiss, marines cannot reproduce as the will is chemically suppressed if I remember correctly but are they also chemically castrated? If they are then the Marine is just a big mind controlled cultist, if not it could produce some odd hybrids.

So are grey knights more resistant to such things I wonder.

There is no evidence that marines are deliberately castrated, chemically or otherwise. However, the process which alters their DNA likely makes them sterile as a side effect. Actually castrating them would be bad as without testosterone their biology wouldn't work.

 Ratius wrote:

They draw they energy from the warp like every other paranormal or psychic event in 40k, but from the perspective of the narrator it comes from the hive mind, which resides in the warp, so as the only energy that can exist in the warp is warp energy, its still warp energy.

1. The Hive Mind uses and is part of the Warp. It's just the mass collective of Tyranid minds. It is not some god or independent entity (ala the Overmind for the Zerg).

We know Tyranid psychic powers come from the Warp, they draw from it in the same way, s

Not sure where you guys are getting your fluff from but Im nearly certain nowhere within the Nid fluff does it state the Hive Mind is a warp entity, lives in the warp or draws its power from it.
Nid psychic powers are drawn from the will of the hive mind - its gestalt consciousness and the power that it creates itself. Old style perils of the warp and failed psychic tests are not from Nid creatures suffering daemonic attacks or being targetted by the Warp - they are from synaptic backlash, overloads and creatures basically frying their own brains with too much energy.

In addition Nids feel zero emotion so cannot have a foot print in the Warp - they are akin to Nulls in that sense - merely creating a shadow that shuts down warp/psychic activity but not actually existing within the warp.

The fact that Nid creatures have "warp fields", "warp blasts" etc is a carry over from old 2nd edition fluff thats basically never been updated.

Exactly, I was wondering the same thing. Nids / the hive mind do not use the warp at all. This means that the Grey Knight's protection against chaos would not necessarily have its full effect against tyranid abilities (or any effect whatsoever; speaking English does not really help me understand Russian).

shortymcnostrill wrote:

 Ratius wrote:

They draw they energy from the warp like every other paranormal or psychic event in 40k, but from the perspective of the narrator it comes from the hive mind, which resides in the warp, so as the only energy that can exist in the warp is warp energy, its still warp energy.

1. The Hive Mind uses and is part of the Warp. It's just the mass collective of Tyranid minds. It is not some god or independent entity (ala the Overmind for the Zerg).

We know Tyranid psychic powers come from the Warp, they draw from it in the same way, s

Not sure where you guys are getting your fluff from but Im nearly certain nowhere within the Nid fluff does it state the Hive Mind is a warp entity, lives in the warp or draws its power from it.
Nid psychic powers are drawn from the will of the hive mind - its gestalt consciousness and the power that it creates itself. Old style perils of the warp and failed psychic tests are not from Nid creatures suffering daemonic attacks or being targetted by the Warp - they are from synaptic backlash, overloads and creatures basically frying their own brains with too much energy.

In addition Nids feel zero emotion so cannot have a foot print in the Warp - they are akin to Nulls in that sense - merely creating a shadow that shuts down warp/psychic activity but not actually existing within the warp.

The fact that Nid creatures have "warp fields", "warp blasts" etc is a carry over from old 2nd edition fluff thats basically never been updated.

Exactly, I was wondering the same thing. Nids / the hive mind do not use the warp at all. This means that the Grey Knight's protection against chaos would not necessarily have its full effect against tyranid abilities (or any effect whatsoever; speaking English does not really help me understand Russian).

Not sure what your source is. All psychic activity goes through the Warp, even the bugs. Tyranids also have a HUGE warp footprint. Bigger than anyone else's. That's the Shadow that drives Psykers mad. The Shadow is literally all the Tyranids talking to each other. It's a massive footprint. That's why Daemons have trouble manifesting around them too.

Individual Tyranid psykers don't tap the Warp like a Librarian, but they collectively absolutely do draw on the Warp and exist within it.

Also, the Warp exists even if there's no sentient creatures with emotion. That makes it stronger (and some theorize more chaotic) but it doesn't just disappear without them.

Nulls don't create a 'shadow' and Tyranids are nothing like them. Nulls are literally the antimatter to the warp's matter. They're blank spaces within the dimension. It's incredibly different compared to a bunch of really chatty bugs.

 Ratius wrote:

They draw they energy from the warp like every other paranormal or psychic event in 40k, but from the perspective of the narrator it comes from the hive mind, which resides in the warp, so as the only energy that can exist in the warp is warp energy, its still warp energy.

1. The Hive Mind uses and is part of the Warp. It's just the mass collective of Tyranid minds. It is not some god or independent entity (ala the Overmind for the Zerg).

We know Tyranid psychic powers come from the Warp, they draw from it in the same way, s

Not sure where you guys are getting your fluff from but Im nearly certain nowhere within the Nid fluff does it state the Hive Mind is a warp entity, lives in the warp or draws its power from it.
Nid psychic powers are drawn from the will of the hive mind - its gestalt consciousness and the power that it creates itself. Old style perils of the warp and failed psychic tests are not from Nid creatures suffering daemonic attacks or being targetted by the Warp - they are from synaptic backlash, overloads and creatures basically frying their own brains with too much energy.

In addition Nids feel zero emotion so cannot have a foot print in the Warp - they are akin to Nulls in that sense - merely creating a shadow that shuts down warp/psychic activity but not actually existing within the warp.

The fact that Nid creatures have "warp fields", "warp blasts" etc is a carry over from old 2nd edition fluff thats basically never been updated.

We never said the Hive mind was a warp Entity, it just resides in the warp, there is no indication that its even an entity at all in all fairness.

To the rest of the stuff, yes nid powers are drawn from the will of the hive mind, the Hive mind is in the warp, only warp energy is in the warp, so the will of the hive mind is warp energy.

Emotion is not the only thing that impacts the warp, souls do too, and every living thing has some impact on the warp, the nids impact on the warp is quite clearly the hive mind, kinda shocking people havent put 2 and 2 together on that one

Warp fields and Warp blasts are exactly that, warp energy.

If its a paranormal ability or psychic ability, its the warp, there is nothing else in the 40k universe that can do it, so nids use the warp, sisters faith is still the warp, the background "ork" field is the warp, its all the warp in some manner or other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
This does beg the question are grey knights immune to the genstealer kiss?

Normal marines are not immune as I remember a short story where the last surviving terminator is held down and given the kiss, marines cannot reproduce as the will is chemically suppressed if I remember correctly but are they also chemically castrated? If they are then the Marine is just a big mind controlled cultist, if not it could produce some odd hybrids.

So are grey knights more resistant to such things I wonder.

There is no evidence that marines are deliberately castrated, chemically or otherwise. However, the process which alters their DNA likely makes them sterile as a side effect. Actually castrating them would be bad as without testosterone their biology wouldn't work.

blah blah blah, you completely bypassed the main comment for a minor nit pick, marines have subdued sexual drives, and possibly cant reproduce, how thats done is another conversation for another day/thread, I want to know if grey knights have a greater resistance to things like the genestealer kiss compared to normal marines, would they make Hybrids? etc.

Personally not interested in the superhuman "bits" lol

In the background about the Tyranids over the RL years, there have been 2 competing themes by authors. One portrays the Hive Mind as a warp entity, arising from the collective of all Tyranids (articulated from about Epic Hive War and 2nd edition onwards). The other that it is "merely" a communication network or static generated by the communication activity of the Tyranids (first articulated in the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex, as this viewpoint was Sherman Bishop's). Over the years the fluff has see-sawed between these two depending on the author. More recently it seems we are heading back to the first one.

The following is from Wraithflight by Guy Haley. The POV is Iyanna using her psychic senses while fighting a hive fleet. While an in-character POV and thus potentially fallible, it does pretty strongly point towards the Hive Mind as an entity:

Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon’s true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna instead saw was the reality of its soul.

It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet’s arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun.
She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreamed dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance.

Against this vista flickered the souls of eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole. She stared at its brilliance. Unlike her passionless dead warriors, who felt nought but the echoes of wrath at the sight, she was fascinated by the beauty on display. She thought, if only such a thing could be tamed it would drive out She Who Thirsts forever. If only its hunger was for things other than the meat and blood of worlds…

She ceased her speculation. Such an entity was entirely other, inimical to all life but its own, a giant animal intent only on its prey. There was no thought to its doings, no intellect. It was cunning. It exhibited signs of an emergent, mechanical intelligence, as evolution might appear to possess if sped to the rate of change the hive mind evinced. But there was no true intelligence to it. The hive mind was non-sentient.

...

She had the sense of an eye, slave to a great power. An intellect that dwarfed the Great Wheel of the galaxy. She opened her second sense, to find the Dragon looking at her with terrible regard. For aeons it seemed it held her in its gaze. And there was fury in that examination. The Dragon was angry, and it was angry with her. Not with the galaxy, or this sector, or her species. But with her personally. The promise of endless torment came from it, her very being enslaved to its ends and used against others, her body rebuilt over and again so that it might suffer the Dragon’s revenge.

So from this story, it seems Iyanna was mistaken in thinking the Hive Mind had no true intelligence or sentience. Though the Hive Mind normally does not seem to concern itself with individual enemies, it seems to have noticed and formed a particular vendetta (or so Iyanna at least perceives) after Iyanna scores yet another victory against the Tyranids.

My view is the Hive Mind is an entity, akin to the gods of other races. The supernatural effects generated by Tyranids are ultimately warp based, but drawn through the filter of the Hive Mind. If using psychic powers on one's own is like jumping into the ocean and scooping a cup of water (i.e. warp power), and running the risk of nasty sea creatures, a Tyranid using its power is like doing the same but in a filtered pool that draws its water from the ocean. No nasty sea creatures (i.e. daemons) affecting the individual Tyranid as they have been filtered out by the Hive Mind. The 5th edition Tyranid Codex described individual daemons being unable to make any inroads or even fleeing before the massed gestalt of the Shadow in the Warp/Hive Mind of a Tyranid fleet.

Iracundus wrote:
In the background about the Tyranids over the RL years, there have been 2 competing themes by authors. One portrays the Hive Mind as a warp entity, arising from the collective of all Tyranids (articulated from about Epic Hive War and 2nd edition onwards). The other that it is "merely" a communication network or static generated by the communication activity of the Tyranids (first articulated in the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex, as this viewpoint was Sherman Bishop's). Over the years the fluff has see-sawed between these two depending on the author. More recently it seems we are heading back to the first one.

The following is from Wraithflight by Guy Haley. The POV is Iyanna using her psychic senses while fighting a hive fleet. While an in-character POV and thus potentially fallible, it does pretty strongly point towards the Hive Mind as an entity:

Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon’s true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna instead saw was the reality of its soul.

It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet’s arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun.
She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreamed dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance.

Against this vista flickered the souls of eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole. She stared at its brilliance. Unlike her passionless dead warriors, who felt nought but the echoes of wrath at the sight, she was fascinated by the beauty on display. She thought, if only such a thing could be tamed it would drive out She Who Thirsts forever. If only its hunger was for things other than the meat and blood of worlds…

She ceased her speculation. Such an entity was entirely other, inimical to all life but its own, a giant animal intent only on its prey. There was no thought to its doings, no intellect. It was cunning. It exhibited signs of an emergent, mechanical intelligence, as evolution might appear to possess if sped to the rate of change the hive mind evinced. But there was no true intelligence to it. The hive mind was non-sentient.

...

She had the sense of an eye, slave to a great power. An intellect that dwarfed the Great Wheel of the galaxy. She opened her second sense, to find the Dragon looking at her with terrible regard. For aeons it seemed it held her in its gaze. And there was fury in that examination. The Dragon was angry, and it was angry with her. Not with the galaxy, or this sector, or her species. But with her personally. The promise of endless torment came from it, her very being enslaved to its ends and used against others, her body rebuilt over and again so that it might suffer the Dragon’s revenge.

So from this story, it seems Iyanna was mistaken in thinking the Hive Mind had no true intelligence or sentience. Though the Hive Mind normally does not seem to concern itself with individual enemies, it seems to have noticed and formed a particular vendetta (or so Iyanna at least perceives) after Iyanna scores yet another victory against the Tyranids.

My view is the Hive Mind is an entity, akin to the gods of other races. The supernatural effects generated by Tyranids are ultimately warp based, but drawn through the filter of the Hive Mind. If using psychic powers on one's own is like jumping into the ocean and scooping a cup of water (i.e. warp power), and running the risk of nasty sea creatures, a Tyranid using its power is like doing the same but in a filtered pool that draws its water from the ocean. No nasty sea creatures (i.e. daemons) affecting the individual Tyranid as they have been filtered out by the Hive Mind. The 5th edition Tyranid Codex described individual daemons being unable to make any inroads or even fleeing before the massed gestalt of the Shadow in the Warp/Hive Mind of a Tyranid fleet.

That was a very interesting piece of fluff, what book is it from?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Well Tyranids draw power from the Hive Mind not the Warp and they're incorruptible not invulnerable. They don't fall to Chaos but they're basically as vulnerable to psychic powers as any other psychic marine.

Aren't Genestealers detached from the Hive Mind? And secondly, where does the Hive Mind draw psychic energy from, if not the Warp?

Again, incorruptible implies a resistance to mind control. Invulnerable would be true if it was against a psychic blast or "witchfire" attack, like lightning or a beam, or even just clouding the mind, but mind control? Why has Chaos never mind controlled a Grey Knight then?

I don't see how a Grey Knight can be just as vulnerable - their own force of will, their specialised training to ward off psychic attacks, the wards built into their armour to specifically ward psychic attentions? These should all indicate a resistance to psychic attacks far beyond any other Librarian. Hence their whole "incorruptible" shtick.

Because it's not a psychic control that mattered. Yes, it's the broodmind directing him, but he's vulnerable to it because of the genestealer kiss, which is a biological phenomena.
i.e. no matter how strong-willed you are, if a parasite organism is physically/chemically cutting off your higher functions from motor control, it doesn't matter.

If you took a grey knight and servitorized them with augmetics and lobotomising surgery, you'd have the same situation, and no-one would be surprised at the effect, but a stealer kiss essentially does this without anyone realising.

Iracundus wrote:
In the background about the Tyranids over the RL years, there have been 2 competing themes by authors. One portrays the Hive Mind as a warp entity, arising from the collective of all Tyranids (articulated from about Epic Hive War and 2nd edition onwards). The other that it is "merely" a communication network or static generated by the communication activity of the Tyranids (first articulated in the 3rd edition Tyranid Codex, as this viewpoint was Sherman Bishop's). Over the years the fluff has see-sawed between these two depending on the author. More recently it seems we are heading back to the first one.

The following is from Wraithflight by Guy Haley. The POV is Iyanna using her psychic senses while fighting a hive fleet. While an in-character POV and thus potentially fallible, it does pretty strongly point towards the Hive Mind as an entity:

Beyond the shield she saw the Great Dragon’s true form. Not the hideous intrusions into the mortal realm that swam the black star sea, nor as a Farseer might see it, as a great and braided cable of malicious fate dominating all the skein. The first was merely a part of the whole, the second psychic abstraction. What Iyanna instead saw was the reality of its soul.

It was a great shadow when seen from afar, a wave of dread and psychic blindness that preceded the hive fleet’s arrival. But the greatest shadows are cast by the brightest lights, and seen closely, the soul of the hive mind shone brighter than any sun.
She was so close now that she perceived the ridged topography of its mind, larger than star systems, an entity bigger than a god. It contemplated thoughts as large as continents, and spun plans more complex than worlds. It dreamed dreams that could not be fathomed. She felt small and afraid before it, but she did not let her fear cow her defiance.

Against this vista flickered the souls of eldar, their jewel-brightness dimmed by the incomparable glare of the Great Dragon. And this was but a tendril of the creature. The bulk of it stretched away, coils wrapped tight about the higher dimensions, joining in the distance to others, and then others again, until at a great confluence of the parts sat the terrible truth of the whole. She stared at its brilliance. Unlike her passionless dead warriors, who felt nought but the echoes of wrath at the sight, she was fascinated by the beauty on display. She thought, if only such a thing could be tamed it would drive out She Who Thirsts forever. If only its hunger was for things other than the meat and blood of worlds…

She ceased her speculation. Such an entity was entirely other, inimical to all life but its own, a giant animal intent only on its prey. There was no thought to its doings, no intellect. It was cunning. It exhibited signs of an emergent, mechanical intelligence, as evolution might appear to possess if sped to the rate of change the hive mind evinced. But there was no true intelligence to it. The hive mind was non-sentient.

...

She had the sense of an eye, slave to a great power. An intellect that dwarfed the Great Wheel of the galaxy. She opened her second sense, to find the Dragon looking at her with terrible regard. For aeons it seemed it held her in its gaze. And there was fury in that examination. The Dragon was angry, and it was angry with her. Not with the galaxy, or this sector, or her species. But with her personally. The promise of endless torment came from it, her very being enslaved to its ends and used against others, her body rebuilt over and again so that it might suffer the Dragon’s revenge.

So from this story, it seems Iyanna was mistaken in thinking the Hive Mind had no true intelligence or sentience. Though the Hive Mind normally does not seem to concern itself with individual enemies, it seems to have noticed and formed a particular vendetta (or so Iyanna at least perceives) after Iyanna scores yet another victory against the Tyranids.

My view is the Hive Mind is an entity, akin to the gods of other races. The supernatural effects generated by Tyranids are ultimately warp based, but drawn through the filter of the Hive Mind. If using psychic powers on one's own is like jumping into the ocean and scooping a cup of water (i.e. warp power), and running the risk of nasty sea creatures, a Tyranid using its power is like doing the same but in a filtered pool that draws its water from the ocean. No nasty sea creatures (i.e. daemons) affecting the individual Tyranid as they have been filtered out by the Hive Mind. The 5th edition Tyranid Codex described individual daemons being unable to make any inroads or even fleeing before the massed gestalt of the Shadow in the Warp/Hive Mind of a Tyranid fleet.

Wraithflight is Guy Halley’s work. He has done a lot of Tyranid content lately. Valedor, The Last Days of Ector, The Death of Integrity and most recently The Devastation of Baal. I think he treats the Tyranids respectfully and is coming into his own giving them a solid theme within his stories beyond being bolter fodder. His Tyranid segments in the Baal novel are well written and manage to imbue the Tyranids with enough character to keep them compelling, but keeping them alien enough to be faithful to the core concepts. This is usually done by making a statement about the Tyranids, and then making another seemingly contradictory statement with both being true. For example, every Lictor is the same Lictor, but each is clearly its own self. Except when it doesn’t need to be. I quite like the style, it’s a fresh way of keeping the Tyranids unknowable. For every ‘fact’ we are given, we see something else which makes us doubt what we know. As Devastation of Baal puts it, “at the height of their power, mankind probably wouldn’t have understood the Tyranids” (paraphrasing).

Back on topic, this is how we have the Hive Mind presented to us. It is clearly the amalgamation of all Tyranid minds; they are it’s constituent parts. Yet it seems to be more than that as well. A singular, vast intelligence which is on such a scale that it is almost impossible to interact with. To some degree it perceives is, and it can certainly view things on our scale, if it chooses to do so (for instance having a look at Iyanna, or deciding that the Blood Angels gene line was worth going out of it’s way to secure) but it is most definitely not of our scale. We look up into it’s face and find that it’s eye fills the entire horizon and more. The only time the galaxy has really interacted with it in a meaningful way beyond attracting mild curiosity is the opening of the Cicatrix Maledictum on top of a Leviathan superfleet which caused it pain and disrupted the Synapse web across the galaxy for a short time. Which means that the only entities who have managed to make it sit up and take notice are the Chaos Gods. Entities on the same sort of scale.

What is the Hive Mind? We don’t know. It’s beyond our ability to properly perceive, just as the Chaos Gods are. We know that the Chaos Gods are sentient Warp storms to some degree, but beyond that? It gets sketchy. The same issues occur when trying to understand the Hive Mind. We have some basic principles, but not much more than that. It is clearly different than the Chaos Gods though because it seems to follow different rules, and is as alien to them as it’s servitor organisms are to us.



Meanwhile, back on topic. None of the OP scenario is beyond the capabilities of Genestealers. A cult could easily form in the bowels of a ship, which is home to tens of thousands of serfs and labourers, many of whom are born and die in the ship. Astartes seem to have limited resistance to the Kiss, but not total resistance. There are examples of Marines falling to both the Genestealers’ hypnotic gaze and Kiss (even Chaos Marines are not immune; this happens in the Word Bearers books, and the Marine doesn’t recall being hypnotised or infected, and can later feel the alien genetic material taking over his mind). The Genestealers would probably go to great lengths to enslave one or more of the Astartes in one way or another as doing so would secure their safety to a greater degree. A mixture of hypnosis, genetic infection and their own alien telepathy might well circumvent the anti-Chaos protections of the Grey Knights. Genestealer Patriarchs can certainly “look through” their children and reach out telepathically over enormous distance. The Patriarch aboard the Death of Integrity was thousands of years old, had millions of children and was the ultimate progenitor of cults across hundreds of worlds and ships. It’s powers could reach out to attack Astartes through other Genestealers, so it is not much of a stretch to think that others could too...

I see a lot of statements about the tyranids and the warp. It seems like there are many opinions and not a lot of cannon or hard facts. Also people tend to use metgaohors to describe the hive mind, witch makes it harder.

Do not genestealer cultists seek out psykers to mate and make a magus? Is this inherent begore the tyranids came to this galaxy? What about tau sociaties with no psykers? Note, that is not proof that the hive mind use psykers that draw on the warp.

We don't really know much about the warp except it is another dimension accesable from our dimension. Perhaps the hive mind uses another?

Only just had time to come back to this, wall of text!

Audustum wrote:Okay:

1. The Hive Mind uses and is part of the Warp. It's just the mass collective of Tyranid minds. It is not some god or independent entity (ala the Overmind for the Zerg).

The Hive Mind is an entity, from what I gather, but it's not BASED in the Warp. Used psychic energy, however, which IS Warp based. That doesn't mean the Hive Mind is a God though, so agreed.

2. Grey Knight armor runes are inscribed against Chaos specifically, pretty sure. Not going to help with Tyranids.

Not actually true. Quote Grey Knights Codex, "Aegis Armour allows Daemon Hunters to better combat Warp Entities and Rogue Psykers by protecting them from psychic attack. The technology incorporated into The Aegis represents the most potent anti-psychic defenses in the Imperium of Man."
Anti-psychic, not anti-daemon. Anti-psychic means that whatever the origin of those psychic powers, be it Daemon or Xenos, it will work. If it was anti-Daemon, I'd agree, but the fact it's psychic as well as featuring daemonic wards is proof against that.

3. Grey Knights are not Witch Hunter's (despite the old Codex name). Sisters of Battle help Hereticus with Psykers, GK specifically help Malleus with Daemons.

They specialise against Daemons, but they also go for other threats too. They're not JUST called in on Daemonic threats. In the 5th edition book there's reference to them wiping out an Ork horde before they can attack an Imperial world. Again, anti-PSYCHIC wards, not anti-Daemonic. They're perfectly potent against psykers.

4. A Purifier probably has no more protection against Tyranid psychic powers than a Librarian with really strong willpower and intense training, do a lot but not invincible. It's not all that crazy to think they got him.

Except the Purifier is:
- Warded in Aegis Armour (anti-psychic)
- Notable one of the LEAST CORRUPTIBLE of the Grey Knights (hence being a Purifier)
- Being a Grey Knight (who are already known to be "incorruptible")

Considering it's not even the Hive Mind that got him, just a few Genestealers with the Brood Mind, and that it was a Purifier, I think this is a massive error in terms of lore.

5. The terrible KDA was probably to reflect that Purifiers suck in 8th!

All jokes aside, the fact that they couldn't even do a 6:1 K/D is a little insulting. Seems like the author wanted to do a scenario but couldn't really find a way to make it actually work.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why has Chaos never mind controlled a Grey Knight then?

I don't see why Chaos forces couldn't if sufficiently powerful. It's just really, really difficult and probably pretty much impossible if there's a group of them Psychically linked. Grey Knights would have to be highly resistant to Psychic powers for them to survive against non-Khornate Chaos forces.

I don't really see such a small Genestealer brood managing it. Was it a Patriarch or Magus or what?

No. Just Genestealers.
Which is why I think this is a bit of a blunder.

Again, given that we've never seen a Grey Knight corrupted, barring the Silver Knight we see with Slaanesh (who we have no idea if they even are a Grey Knight), and that they are deemed Incorruptible, this reeks of bad writing.

Grey Templar wrote:Incorruptable doesn't mean you are immune to being overwhelmed. It means you will never voluntarily submit.

A Grey Knight can still be harmed by psychic powers, which could potentially control his body. But he will never submit and join the other side as a willing participant.

I'm down with them being harmed by psychic powers, but mind control is corruption, something they should be massively warded against?

Grey Knights are resistant to psychic powers of course, so mindcontrolling one would be difficult.

Which is why I think a handful of Genestealers doing it to a Purifier is stupid. Especially seeing as this hasn't even happened to a normal Space Marine, let alone a psychic one.

Formosa wrote:This does beg the question are grey knights immune to the genstealer kiss?

Normal marines are not immune as I remember a short story where the last surviving terminator is held down and given the kiss, marines cannot reproduce as the will is chemically suppressed if I remember correctly but are they also chemically castrated? If they are then the Marine is just a big mind controlled cultist, if not it could produce some odd hybrids.

So are grey knights more resistant to such things I wonder.

In Space Hulk (the novel), some Techmarines are infected with the Kiss. Because of their biology, it reacts badly, but the Marines are not controlled by the Brood Mind. The Kiss doesn't react in a stable way - it basically horrifically mutates the flesh of the host, but doesn't prompt any urge to aid the Tyranids like on a normal human.

epronovost wrote:I would say all these events are believable on paper. Considering the size of even the smallest ship used by the Imperium that are cabable of warp travel, a hundred people infected by genestealers is possible and difficult to detect since there would be at least 10 000 person on board beside the Grey Knights themselves and that's if they are on a very, very small warship. If they are on something like a Strike Cruiser or a frigate there would be around 50 000 crew members. A few hundred genetealer cultists might be able to keep a low profile in such a circomstances.

If they got on board in the first place. Don't forget, this is a Grey Knight's ship, which means getting aboard is a MASSIVE issue for security.

Genetealers being extremely stealthy creature who smuggle themselves frequently from planet to planet could have used a Grey Knight ship as a lifeboat. Warships like those of the Grey Knights could be suceptible to be infected since they travel a lot. While unlikely, it's possible in my opinion.

Genestealers smuggle aboard from low-security vessels, such as trading ships, merchant vessels, sometimes PDF shuttles and suchlike. Not top-secret Grey Knight military vessels.

Grey Knights do move frequently, but they are TOP secret. How did these genestealers get on? Through a boarding shuttle? So there was no security, no scans, the Grey Knights didn't known they took a GENESTEALER on board? Unlikely. If they hit a Spore Mine in space, I'm sure they'd report that. Couldn't have been a Tyranid conflict, considering they weren't coming from one in the story. So the only thing left is them docking on with another ship. Willingly? Doubtful - Grey Knight vessels are top secret - they're not known for mingling with "normal" ships. If it was a member of crew, that ignores the EXTREMELY tight security aboard a Grey Knight vessel.

I don't see how they could have got aboard.

As for 60 genetealer killing ten elite Space Marines, I think it's perfectly plausible. Hell, I would have believed 6 genestealers could have done it if they managed to surprise the said elite Space Marine in close combat. If the Space Marines are well armed and can shoot on the damn thing who charge at them, they require high numbers to triumph, but in other circomstances, other results.

Considering Space Marines are well documented to get higher K/D ratios on Space Hulks with unfamiliar terrain, I think getting a 6:1 K/D is insulting. Especially when 53:1 isn't seen as too outlandish in Death of Integrity.

On the subject of the surviving Purifier being mind-controlled by the genetealer, I do find it puzzling. If there was a Patriarch amongst them, it would have been credible. The Grey Knights and Purifiers incorruptability is in regard to the forces of Chaos. I don't think they are immune to any sort of warp powers from lightning bolts to psychic flames. Their willpower must be enormous and they possess great knowledge on how daemons possess people which helps them triumph over them. It might be possible for another psyker to use a certain form of mind controll over a Purifier provided they aren't daemon-possessed. Even then, it's said that no Grey Knight ever fell to the power of Chaos. We don't know for sure if it only covers Grey Knight willingly turning to Chaos or both willing and unwilling conversion. In the same vein, only one Sister of Battle ever fell willingly to Chaos, but many more were mind controlled or even possessed. In resume, if there was a Patriarch I would say it's perfectly plausible, but if there is none, most certainly bs, unless the Purifer was comatose or on death door (if not outright dead) when he was mind-controlled.

I don't believe there was a Patriarch at all. The Purifier isn't in a bad physical state at all, considering the rescue team don't think anything's afoot by his armour.

Again, I absolutely agree that offensive psychic attacks like flames or lightning affect them, certainly not immune to them. But controlling them psychically seems like the exact thing that they are trained to resist, and be, well, incorruptible to.

shortymcnostrill wrote:Exactly, I was wondering the same thing. Nids / the hive mind do not use the warp at all. This means that the Grey Knight's protection against chaos would not necessarily have its full effect against tyranid abilities (or any effect whatsoever; speaking English does not really help me understand Russian).

If they're using psychic attacks, they're using the Warp. That's where ALL psychic energy is created. Sure, it's not channeled straight from it, and it doesn't come from a Chaos god, but, like Eldar psychic powers, it still comes from the Warp. Hell, the Hive Mind is described as "a psychic embodiment of the Tyranid instincts and racial imperatives to devour and destroy". There's no way to use psychic powers without using the Warp in some way (looking at you, Space Wolves).

And besides, as I stated above, Grey Knight Aegis Armour is anti-PSYCHIC, not anti-Daemon or Chaos. Tyranid powers are still psychic, so should still be nulled.

locarno24 wrote:Because it's not a psychic control that mattered. Yes, it's the broodmind directing him, but he's vulnerable to it because of the genestealer kiss, which is a biological phenomena.
i.e. no matter how strong-willed you are, if a parasite organism is physically/chemically cutting off your higher functions from motor control, it doesn't matter.

If you took a grey knight and servitorized them with augmetics and lobotomising surgery, you'd have the same situation, and no-one would be surprised at the effect, but a stealer kiss essentially does this without anyone realising.

The Purifier wasn't Kissed though. It was purely psychic, no biology involved, hence my issue.

Plus, as Space Hulk proves, the Kiss doesn't mentally affect Astartes, but it does cause extreme physical mutilation.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Incorruptable doesn't mean you are immune to being overwhelmed. It means you will never voluntarily submit.

A Grey Knight can still be harmed by psychic powers, which could potentially control his body. But he will never submit and join the other side as a willing participant.

I'm down with them being harmed by psychic powers, but mind control is corruption, something they should be massively warded against?

Mind Control is not corruption.

Mind Control means that you are NOT in control of your own actions, somebody else is using you like a puppet on a string.

A Grey Knight would never willingly submit to that, but he could be overwhelmed and have his body be controlled by something else sufficiently powerful enough to dominate his mind.

Being corrupted means you are a willing participant in something.


To use a real world example.

The Nazis used slave labor in a number of their factories. Because those slaves were making equipment for the Nazis, does that make them Nazis? Of course not. They weren't willing participants.

Its the same with a Grey Knight getting mind controlled. He's not a willing participant, and thus hasn't been corrupted. If he was corrupted, they wouldn't need to mind control him now would they

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Incorruptable doesn't mean you are immune to being overwhelmed. It means you will never voluntarily submit.

A Grey Knight can still be harmed by psychic powers, which could potentially control his body. But he will never submit and join the other side as a willing participant.

I'm down with them being harmed by psychic powers, but mind control is corruption, something they should be massively warded against?

Mind Control is not corruption.

Mind Control means that you are NOT in control of your own actions, somebody else is using you like a puppet on a string.

A Grey Knight would never willingly submit to that, but he could be overwhelmed and have his body be controlled by something else sufficiently powerful enough to dominate his mind.

Being corrupted means you are a willing participant in something.


To use a real world example.

The Nazis used slave labor in a number of their factories. Because those slaves were making equipment for the Nazis, does that make them Nazis? Of course not. They weren't willing participants.

Its the same with a Grey Knight getting mind controlled. He's not a willing participant, and thus hasn't been corrupted. If he was corrupted, they wouldn't need to mind control him now would they

In your real world example, those slaves weren't being psychically influenced. They were under threat, but to my knowledge, the Nazis didn't have space magic.

The fact the Purifier's mind has been broken and that they had been PSYCHICALLY dominated is why is say they were "corrupted".
Even a Corrupted Space Marine might not be willing, but they were still corrupt, regardless if they embraced the corruption or not. See Phosis T'Kar - corrupted, but let himself be killed by Valdor when he realised.

Being mind-controlled by Tyranids is nowhere near the same as being corrupted by Chaos IMO, but I'm also of the opinion that Grey Knights are not actually incorruptible.

Some quotes from the story might help.

I'm of a mind to think that mind controlling Grey Knights is possible (and not the same as corrupting them) but incredibly difficult. I think a small band of Purestrain Genestealers managing it shouldn't have happened fluff-wise.

"Plus, as Space Hulk proves, the Kiss doesn't mentally affect Astartes, but it does cause extreme physical mutilation. "

Contradicted by the Deathwatch graphic novel, though, where a Kissed Deathwatch veteran is compelled.

Regarding terrible KD... maybe the story was already almost done featuring some normal chapter and GW marketing said "no we need another GK story... make it GK now" Author: "psshhhhht f me , yeah whatever".