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Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

In a few different threads, here and elsewhere, I've seen people asking if multilasers are as bad as people make them out to be. They simply are, of course. They are mathematically worse against nearly any target than the heavy bolter (aside from T5/6 models with poor saves or mostly invulnerable saves, which is an achingly narrow niche.) For this, they actually pay more than a heavy bolter, which itself is a fine, if workhorse weapon. But running the poor multilaser into the ground isn't the point of this post. To understand how bad the multilaser is now, you have to understand how it became such a common weapon in the IG arsenal, and why it's place in the pecking order shifted.

For many editions, the Multi-laser, while never strong, was at least efficient. It was common on chimeras, which were dirt cheap and rugged. At S6, it wounded most infantry on a 2+, and it could penetrate Armor Values up to 11, and even glance AV12. It was the poor man's version of the scatter laser spam that eldar enjoyed. So what happened?

1) The change from AV to wounds for vehicles knocked out the multilasers main target: light armor. At S6, the multi-laser did work against AV10 and AV11, which included the ubiquitous rhino. Even under smoke launchers, 27 Multilaser shots would knock out a Rhino. Now, against T7 and 3+ save, it takes 18 shots to just strip a single wound from a rhino! Also, many vehicles had weaker side/rear armor, which allowed good shots.

2) flattening the wound chart makes the ML only wound T4 on a 3+, while the change in cover means that it's lack of AP really matters now. IN prior editions, bing AP6 was only marginaly worse than AP4, since they probably got cover anyway, and if they get cover, why waste shots with good AP? Now, when even heavy bolters can punch through camo cloaks, the ML lost a lot of ground.

3) higher wounds gives a big nod to weapons that do more damage. In past editions, even a greater daemon might have only 6 wounds and a 4++, making the ML a decent weapon for knocking the odd wound or two. Now, even as the saves block half the lascannon shots, the half that land do d6 damage!

4) Finally, the multi-laser was a mobile heavy weapon. When vehicles could shoot heavy weapons without penalty, even though it wasn't great, Chimeras and Sentinels (and even cheap valks) could at least snag side armor shots or hunt down things out of LOS.

In editions past, the Multilaser took advantage of a few niches that don't exist anymore, and gave a skilled player some tools. Now, however, it is simply a lost soul, with no real niche, especially since it competes with far better and/or cheaper options on every platform.

But, for players new to 8th, or new to IG, you need to understand why every chimera you buy second hand comes with multilaser.
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

 Polonius wrote:
In a few different threads, here and elsewhere, I've seen people asking if multilasers are as bad as people make them out to be. They simply are, of course. They are mathematically worse against nearly any target than the heavy bolter (aside from T5/6 models with poor saves or mostly invulnerable saves, which is an achingly narrow niche.) For this, they actually pay more than a heavy bolter, which itself is a fine, if workhorse weapon. But running the poor multilaser into the ground isn't the point of this post. To understand how bad the multilaser is now, you have to understand how it became such a common weapon in the IG arsenal, and why it's place in the pecking order shifted.

For many editions, the Multi-laser, while never strong, was at least efficient. It was common on chimeras, which were dirt cheap and rugged. At S6, it wounded most infantry on a 2+, and it could penetrate Armor Values up to 11, and even glance AV12. It was the poor man's version of the scatter laser spam that eldar enjoyed. So what happened?

1) The change from AV to wounds for vehicles knocked out the multilasers main target: light armor. At S6, the multi-laser did work against AV10 and AV11, which included the ubiquitous rhino. Even under smoke launchers, 27 Multilaser shots would knock out a Rhino. Now, against T7 and 3+ save, it takes 18 shots to just strip a single wound from a rhino! Also, many vehicles had weaker side/rear armor, which allowed good shots.

2) flattening the wound chart makes the ML only wound T4 on a 3+, while the change in cover means that it's lack of AP really matters now. IN prior editions, bing AP6 was only marginaly worse than AP4, since they probably got cover anyway, and if they get cover, why waste shots with good AP? Now, when even heavy bolters can punch through camo cloaks, the ML lost a lot of ground.

3) higher wounds gives a big nod to weapons that do more damage. In past editions, even a greater daemon might have only 6 wounds and a 4++, making the ML a decent weapon for knocking the odd wound or two. Now, even as the saves block half the lascannon shots, the half that land do d6 damage!

4) Finally, the multi-laser was a mobile heavy weapon. When vehicles could shoot heavy weapons without penalty, even though it wasn't great, Chimeras and Sentinels (and even cheap valks) could at least snag side armor shots or hunt down things out of LOS.

In editions past, the Multilaser took advantage of a few niches that don't exist anymore, and gave a skilled player some tools. Now, however, it is simply a lost soul, with no real niche, especially since it competes with far better and/or cheaper options on every platform.

But, for players new to 8th, or new to IG, you need to understand why every chimera you buy second hand comes with multilaser.


Maybe it could gain some nieche back if it was not a heavy weapon. To make it a long range but light vehicle weapon. If they changed it to assult it could have a place of it's own again.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





+1 shot and assault class if placed on a VEHICLE keyword (similar to dark lances for DE) could give it a decent niche back.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Even back in it's heyday, it really struggled to find a niche between the heavy bolter (dedicated anti-infantry) and Autocannon (light vehicle slayer to the stars). The main reason it got as much play as it did was that on the most common platform, the chimera, it was the same cost as a heavy bolter, and simply out performed the heavy bolter for anti-infantry in practice.

The autocannon has a very different niche in 8th edition now, most notably against two wound models, or high invulnerable save, high toughness models. The heavy bolter is now actually pretty good against infantry. I'm not sure where the multi-laser really fits in, especially since it's on such an odd group of chassis.

Assault 4 would be good, since it's still not really doing a lot of damage. Personally, I'd drop it to five points and make it Assault 3, but that would allow for some super cheap sentinels.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





Complaints aside, the multilaser is designed to be a cheap side weapon like the laser ports. Consider part of the basic package and pay more points if you want some backup firepower

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

Was going to make a snarky comment along the lines of 'big shootas say hi', but yeah, str 6 ap 0 heavy 3 for 10 points is pretty bad.

I really think that a lot more things should ignore heavy weapons. I'm ok with infantry being affected, but the entire point of mounting big gunz on vehicles is to have a stable firing platform.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 23:11:47


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

Poor multilaser, you were my go to swiss army knife. As far as I see it they need one (or more) changes to make them ever worth it, especially considering that it has such a limited range of targets that it is effective. Really we need a reason to not pay LESS points for the much better heavy bolter.

1. Price reduction, I'd argue for zero points, they are pretty awful and very few vehicles use them, all of which could use a point reduction. Barring that, 5 points would make me think twice about just taking a heavy bolter.

2. Change in weapon type. Hellhounds became assault weapons theres no reason the multilaser couldnt be assault, or......RAPID FIRE 1! That would certainly find it a niche as a close range high volume weapon

3. Stat change. Alternatively it could up the shots (4-5) or give it d3 damage. this way it can still have a reason to be different than a heavy bolter and to justify its price of 10 pts vs the 8 of the HB.

The venerable Multilaser needs a facelift and doing so would certainly make chimeras, sentinels, and valkyries better in comparison.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 23:59:33


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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

To be honest I believe the three first points you have said have actually been changes for the better.
More durable vehicles, more relevance for the proper anti tank weapons, the differences in AP and cover bonuses being important instead of AP4-6 being irrelevant.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

 Galas wrote:
To be honest I believe the three first points you have said have actually been changes for the better.
More durable vehicles, more relevance for the proper anti tank weapons, the differences in AP and cover bonuses being important instead of AP4-6 being irrelevant.


Oh, the changes to the game were absolutely for the better. I'm a huge fan of 8th. It's just interesting that a weapon that basically didn't change from 7th to 8th went from solidly boring to god awful. I was just trying to explain why.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ChargerIIC wrote:
Complaints aside, the multilaser is designed to be a cheap side weapon like the laser ports. Consider part of the basic package and pay more points if you want some backup firepower


I think it is now, although when you look at Chimeras, they have the heavy bolter available, which is cheaper but better. On Sentinels, I'm probably going to take wahtever is cheapest, with a number of exceptions: catachan heavy flamers, cadian plasma, and tallarn anything. You can also argue that for only two points more, the autocannon is a spicy option.

Only on the valk does the basic package argument hold, but 10pts more for a lascannon is now a no-brainer, given how little the multi-laser buys you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/12 00:14:45


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Personally, I would like it if multilasers could be rapid fire on vehicles, that would make them interesting as at least it would be a different option to the heavy bolter. Oh well.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I think the 8th ed Multilaser's only problem is its cost. Set it to 5 or 6 points and the cost reflects what it is - a default weapon that you can upgrade to something better.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

As a giant laser gun, wouldn't be more interesting as DMG 2 or D3? It then at least does something substantial when it does a wound.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Prosecutor





I like hte rapid fire idea since it's more thematic. I would also support if the attacks went to d6, but I really don''t want to pay the increased points costs for either.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


https://www.victorwardbooks.com/ Home of Dark Days series 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I love the rapid fire idea!

The Multilaser always struck me as a laser gatling anyways - but it's from the edition where 3 shots was "machine gun" and 4 shots was "so much dakka that it literally punctures armour by hitting the same place multiple times" (is why assault cannon has Rending!)

Now, we're in an edition where gatling guns have 20-40 shots, and even the assault cannon was buffed to 6.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love the rapid fire idea!

The Multilaser always struck me as a laser gatling anyways - but it's from the edition where 3 shots was "machine gun" and 4 shots was "so much dakka that it literally punctures armour by hitting the same place multiple times" (is why assault cannon has Rending!)

Now, we're in an edition where gatling guns have 20-40 shots, and even the assault cannon was buffed to 6.
.

Now we all need to get on the 40k facebook page and let them know to make Multilasers great and rapid fire.

17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in sg
Humorless Arbite





Hull

I'm alright with them but then again, I face a lot of T5/T6 so they're actually in their niche.

It's a case of using them to the Guard Strength - fire enough so that weight of dice cause failed saves and victory. Think of them as simply larger flashlights, get a bunch and throw them all at a target.

   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Otto Weston wrote:
I'm alright with them but then again, I face a lot of T5/T6 so they're actually in their niche.

It's a case of using them to the Guard Strength - fire enough so that weight of dice cause failed saves and victory. Think of them as simply larger flashlights, get a bunch and throw them all at a target.


Problem isn't not using them to guard strenght. Problem is heavy bolter does same weight of dice for cheaper. The niche where they are good is as said very narrow. Of course if you face that mostly then it helps but for TAC armies heavy bolter simply is much more better option.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
 
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