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Made in gb
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/2007101416227949/

we have almost come up with the crux of the basic rules at the moment, but we on the facebook group want to hear from you, what would you want to see in combat patrol

here are a list of the orriginal rules from Combat patrol note these may not be the rules we will use.

Patrols are no more than
400 points.
• You must have one Troop choice.
• You may have one HQ choice,
but no more than one.
• You may spend remaining points on
anything in the Codex.
• No character can have more than
2 Wounds.
• No special characters.
• No 2+ saves.
• No vehicles with a total Armour value
greater than 33.
• You must have a completed,
detailed roster and access to the
relevant Codex.
• Painted models only.

I repeat: these are the old rules and not the ones we are necesarily advocating as we will change them, what would you like to see different?
   
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Possibly character wounds upped to three?

Seems the minimum HP for characters, at least among the Guard.

You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!

*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs. 
   
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In My Lab

 Cothonian wrote:
Possibly character wounds upped to three?

Seems the minimum HP for characters, at least among the Guard.


Librarians are 4, so...

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
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Space Marines do not have characters with less than 4 wounds now, and 4 wounds allows almost all IG characters (Well all of them if you ignore those in tanks and Straken). It seems it needs to be 3 for Guard and 4 for Space Marines.

For the old total Armour Value of 33 or less, it would seem it would correspond to T7 or less.

Also Flyers and LoW may be too much.

What might be easier is choosing what units would be best suited, going through each codex, and putting them on a list.

Codex Adeptus Astartes
* HQ
- Librarian
- Primaris Librarian
- Chaplain
- Primaris Chaplain
- Techmarine
- Lieutenant
- Primaris Lieutenant
* Troops
- Tactical Squad
- Intercessor Squad
- Scout Squad
- Crusader Squad
*Elite
- Apothecary
- Primaris Apothecary
- Servitors
- Reiver Squad
- Vanguard Veteran
- Sternguard
- Dreadnought
- Venerable Dreadnought
- Contemptor
* Fast Attack
- Bike Squad
- Assault Squad
- Land Speeder
- Attack Bike Squad
- Scout Bike Squad
- Inceptor Squad
* Heavy Support
- Devastator Squad
- Hellblaster Squad
- Predator
* Transport
- Rhino
- Razorback
- Land Speeder Storm

Bigger list than I thought. But your ideas may differ.




   
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Right Behind You

Done my own Combat Patrol update for 8th, link here.

Basically, given that 2+ can be obtained by any unit with a 3+ save in 8th, limiting 2+ saves is a mistake.

Given how Characters have much more Wounds now, I put a limit of 6, meaning players can still take their Captains and Warbosses, but also put in a level of Wounds to allow for armoured vehicles and monsters. If a unit has the Monster or Vehicle keyword, they can have up to 10 Wounds. So Leman Russes can't be taken, but Chimeras can.

Limit the army to a Patrol Detachment, so the forced Troops choice is still there, and if people want to take multiple HQ, they can. I don't think limiting HQ is a good idea.

Painted models and completed roster don't need to be rules. A completed roster is expected anyway, and "painted" is a nebulous term. A painted model can be a model that's undercoated. A painted model can be one with a single streak of paint on it's. In a tournament, I understand that, but for a friendly quick game that's Combat Patrol, "painted only" is an unnecessary restriction.

Again, more details in my own post on the matter.

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* 400 points feels about right.

* Mandatory troops choice is fine. It restricts army theme slightly (you can't have a mono deathwing force, for instace), but this forces you explore options you might not in a normal game of 40k.
* Multiple HQs is probably fine, though smite is arguably more potent in combat patrol than in normal 40k.
*2 wound limit seems silly. I'm fine with my opponent fielding a chaplain or whatever. We have multi-damage weapons these days.
* No special characters also seems silly. Obviously there are special characters that would break combat patrol, but they should be banned by restrictions that relate to their capabilities, not to some blanket bias against characters with established names and backgrounds. Is Fuegan the Phoenix Lord really going to break Combat patrol?
* No 2+ saves seems silly. A marine in cover has a 2+ save. I believe this edition's armor reduction system has rendered this restriction obsolete.
* In my own version of Combat Patrol, I've implemented a restriction that nothing can be Toughness 6 or higher. While this does restrict some mostly-reasonable choices (like rhinos), it also prevents some problematic options from being taken. To elaborate, one thing I like about Combat Patrol is that it lets you zoom in on a small number of physical bodies without having to think about "big stuff" like primarchs and knights. If I know that my opponent can field a razorback (or whatever), and I know that my small arms fire won't be able to efficiently remove said razorback, then I'm basically forced to either disregard half my options in favor of anti-tank options, or else I have to accept that I will be hard countered every time I run into a razorback (or necron vehicle or whatever).

* Roster/codex/painting. Meh. I mean, this sounds more like a personal preference for a given player or a guideline for an organized event than a set of guidelines for a potentially casual game between friends. In the same way that people should be free to play regular 40k with unpainted models and hastily written lists, people should be able to play Combat Patrol with unpainted models and hastily written lists. If your local club, league, or tournament organizer wants to put additional restrictions in place, fine, but it doesn't need to be baked in to the Combat Patrol format.

Some additional things to consider:
*Stratagems that are fine in normal 40k are potentially broken in Combat Patrol. Consider infiltrating Alpha Legion berzerkers, for instance. Consider disallowing faction-specific stratagems and possibly creating some Combat Patrol specific ones.
*Psychic powers that are fine in normal 40k are potentially broken in combat patrol. Consider Quickened Shining Spears, for instance. Or imagine how much more effective Executioner or Smite are when each model removed represents a significantly larger portion of the enemy force than usual.
*Relics are probably fine, but you may want to comb through them to make sure there aren't any abusable ones.
*Chapter tactics/craftworld attributes/etc. are actually probably mostly fine. Even things like "-1 to to-hit rolls made against targets more than 12" away" is less effective on a 4"x4" play area. However, it might not hurt to consider reviewing and revising any problematic ones.
*Warlord traits can potentially get out of hand. Personally, I like the idea of simply not having warlords in such small games. If you want a mission where killing the "leader" is important, just have each player designate a single model as their "leader" before deployment or whatever.
   
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This is how AdeptiCon is doing it this year:

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2018/201840Kcp.pdf
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Sorry for the long gap in coms I had problems with my laptop recently coupled with essays over the Christmass period

Please find attached our draft rules, there has been some play testing but not alot if honest.

Patrols must consist of

. 400-750 points or 20-30 power level
. No special characters.
• No 2+ saves.
• No vehicles with wounds greater than 10
. No character with more than 3 wounds
. You must have a completed, detailed roster and access to the relevant Codex.

As you might not pick an HQ choice, the patrol should still have a commander who gives the orders and against which Leadership tests are made. This, of course, would be the most senior ranking figure. In the case of two figures being of an equal rank then the player may choose which is the patrol’s leader,and only that figure may confer its Leadership bonus to friendly squads.

optinal
games last 40-45 mins (you must complete your turn you are on whenthe time is up)
gmes last 40 turns
[/img]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea of only having a 3 wounds restriction went down like lead balloon

On FB they wanted a 4 wound restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the idea for a 3 wound restriction went down like a lead Ballon. the facebook group wanted a 4 wound restriction.
[Thumb - combat patrol.jpg]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/24 06:30:15


 
   
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In My Lab

Well yeah. Freaking Commissars have 4 wounds, so...

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







Scanning through the Indexes for a quick list:

Four-Wound cap gets you: Marine Librarian, Apothecary, Chaplain, Techmarine, Lieutenant on foot only. Marine Company/Chapter Champion and Ancient. Unique and Chapter-specific versions of each. Guard Company Commander, Lord Commissar, Tempestor Prime. Tech-priest Enginseer, Cybernetica Datasmith. Imagifier, Hospitallier, Dialogus. Repentia Mistress. Primaris Psyker. Necron Lord, Cryptek. Sslyth. Wierdboy, Big Mek. Painboy, Runtherd, Nob Banner. Ethereal. GSC Icon. CSM Sorcerer, Warpsmith. Heralds.

Three-wound cap gets you: Lone Wolf. Guard Master of Ordnance, Officer of the Fleet, Platoon Commander. Commissar. Astropath. Warlock Skyrunner, Lhamaean, Medusae, Ur-Ghul, Mek. Farsight Marksman. GSC Magus.

Two-wound cap gets you: Warlock on foot.


If you want a wound count cap it can't be four, because at that point you're letting Guard and Marines have rerolls while keeping them away from everyone else, and it can't be three, because at that point about a third of armies get any characters at all. And going up to five wounds you start running into questions like why the Tau army is allowed to put everyone but the Shas'el in a battlesuit.

I'd almost suggest trying to make new profiles to recreate the intermediate character ranks that existed back in 4e and earlier (inspired by the Lords/Heroes distinction in WHFB); the Dracon (sub-Archon) in DE, Palatine (sub-Canoness) in Sisters, etc. so you can keep the cap at 4 (or 5, so your four-wound characters can still have bikes/whatnot and you can still make a Primaris army) without taking rerolls away from almost everyone.

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Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
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Mississippi

Personally, I’d like to see 2+ armor units allowed, but up their cost to factor in how resiliant they are. Maybe +50% to model cost?

On wounds, prehaps Allow 4 wound characters to be taken but limit them to 3 actual wounds? Don’t reduce cost, if they want them that bad, they’ll pay the premium.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Blackdheild_Barbarian wrote:
Sorry for the long gap in coms I had problems with my laptop recently coupled with essays over the Christmass period

Please find attached our draft rules, there has been some play testing but not alot if honest.

Patrols must consist of

. 400-750 points or 20-30 power level
. No special characters.
• No 2+ saves.
• No vehicles with wounds greater than 10
. No character with more than 3 wounds
. You must have a completed, detailed roster and access to the relevant Codex.

As you might not pick an HQ choice, the patrol should still have a commander who gives the orders and against which Leadership tests are made. This, of course, would be the most senior ranking figure. In the case of two figures being of an equal rank then the player may choose which is the patrol’s leader,and only that figure may confer its Leadership bonus to friendly squads.

optinal
games last 40-45 mins (you must complete your turn you are on whenthe time is up)
gmes last 40 turns
[/img]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea of only having a 3 wounds restriction went down like lead balloon

On FB they wanted a 4 wound restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the idea for a 3 wound restriction went down like a lead Ballon. the facebook group wanted a 4 wound restriction.


Doesn't 30 PL roughly translate to about 600 points rather than 750? Other than that, I'll mostly reiterate some of my previous thoughts:

a.) Why no special characters? What concerns do you have that have caused you to prevent them, and can those concerns be addressed without preventing me from playing a cool, fluffy combat patrol skirmish between Drazhar's entourage and Karandras's students?

b.) Why no 2+ saves? I know this was a restriction in past versions of combat patrol, but we're in a new edition now where a tactical marine in ruins has a 2+ and tons of weapons can reduce that 2+ with AP. If half my opponent's army is wrapped up in terminators that are sitting in cover, I'm very okay with him shrugging off a wound on a 2+ instead of a 3+ when out in the open. Again, I'm curious to know what the concern being addressed by this is as it prevents a lot of not necessarily problematic options from being fielded.

c.) 10 wounds seems like a reasonable cut off, although I'd point out that it still allows things like razorbacks into the game. Have you considered just barring all models with a Toughness of 6 or higher? This would also catch any especially durable MCs (no need to specifically call out vehicles these days with 8th edition's mechanics).

d.) You've already mentioned that the wound limit for characters has met with a lot of resistance. Have you considered just dropping that particular limitation entirely? Again, what is the concern that such a limit addresses? Are space marine captains a problem in Combat Patrol? Why add a limitation that prevents people from fielding a wider variety of fluffy forces?
   
Made in us
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Addendum: If you're trying to keep Combat Patrol as a "patrol"-scale game rather than throwing people who should be leading armies rather than small detachments into the mix going "no special characters" on its own should be enough. If you want to restrict/prohibit reroll auras and the like I'd suggest making them not function in Combat Patrol and giving the relevant characters a discount to compensate, or if you don't mind the extra work writing an array of "force commander"-grade characters that don't have those rules.

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Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
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Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte




U.K.

The idea behind combat patrol was that it represented more 'basic' forces. They didnt include things like terminators because they are more elite, a lot rarer, generally not being used in smaller scale skirmishes and finally to even out saves by making 3+ the best you could get. There were limits on heavy weapons and ordnance which basically made the game troops vs troops and light vehicles. No special characters, no Lords running around.
If you want to play with those guys then play a bigger game, the game is called 'Combat Patrol' for a reason

3 SPRUUUUUEESSSS!!!! 
   
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 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
...No special characters, no Lords running around...


The issue that keeps coming up here is that the Lords/Heroes distinction has disappeared from 40k, and restricting 'characters' by Wound count ends up giving a few armies a bizarre and arbitrary assortment of support characters and other armies squat; not to mention the problem of giving some armies psykers and other armies no psykers, and the question of how some armies' Characters live in HQ and some don't. And the other problem is that the Wound count restriction for Combat Patrol is entirely based on pre-8e Wound counts (where three Wounds was a Chapter Master).

As an experimental overhaul here let's imagine that no Characters are allowed in Combat Patrol unless they're explicitly on a list of "Junior Officers" (to avoid things like forward observers and banners), and all count as HQ regardless of their original slot.

And stripped-back rules for said junior officers: Patrol Leader: <sub-faction> (Chapter, Regiment, whatever) units within 6" of the patrol leader may reroll one failed to-hit roll per phase. Refractor Field: 5+ Invulnerable save.

The characters (price tweaks necessary but not present here at the moment):

Space Marines (also Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Deathwatch):
Force Commander (one Lieutenant, replace Tactical Precision with Patrol Leader and MC boltgun with a boltgun. Add refractor field.)
Primaris Force Commander (one Primaris Lieutenant, replace Tactical Precision with Patrol Leader, replace MC auto/stalker bolt rifle with choice of normal bolt rifle, auto bolt rifle, stalker bolt rifle. Add refractor field.)
Codicier (Librarian, Primaris-Librarian, or Librarian on Bike. Only knows one power and may only cast one power.)
Junior Chaplain (Chaplain, Primaris-Chaplain, or Chaplain on Bike, replace Rosarius with refractor field and replace Litanies of Hate with Patrol Leader.)
Techmarine (one Techmarine or Techmarine on Bike. May not take a servo-harness.)

Space Wolves
Wolf Guard Battle Leader (Battle Leader or Battle Leader on Bike. Replace Huskarl to the Jarl with Patrol Leader, add refractor field.)
Wolf Priest (Wolf Priest or Wolf Priest on Bike. Replace wolf amulet with refractor field and replace Oath of War with Patrol Leader.)
Rune Priest Apprentice (Rune Priest or Rune Priest on Bike. May only attempt to cast one power each turn.)

Grey Knights
Grey Knight Force Commander
M 6", WS 2+, BS 3+, S 4, T 4, W 4, A 4, Ld 8, Sv 3+
Nemesis sword, storm bolter, frag, krak, psyk-out grenades. May trade Nemesis sword for a different Nemesis weapon.
ATSKNF, Daemon Hunters, Rites of Banishment, Patrol Leader. May attempt to cast/deny one power per turn, knows Smite and one Sanctic power.

Imperial Guard
Platoon Commander, Commissar fielded unaltered.
Tempestor Secundus (Tempestor Prime, may not have a command rod.)

Adeptus Mechanicus
Enginseer-Adept (as per Enginseer, unaltered)

Adeptus Ministorum
Ministorum Preacher (Ministorum Priest, replace Rosarius with refractor field)
Palatine
M 6", WS 2+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 4, A 3, Ld 8, Sv 3+
Equipment and options as per Canoness. Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith, Refractor Field, Patrol Leader.

Adeptus Astra Telepathica
Astropath (unaltered)

Sisters of Silence
Oblivion Knight
M 7", WS 2+, BS 2+, S 3, T 3, W 4, A 3, Ld 8, Sv 3+
One Oblivion Knight, equipped with Executioner greatblade, bolt pistol, and psyk-out grenades
Psychic Abomination, Witch Hunters, Refractor Field, Patrol Leader.
Ex Oblivio: If there is a psyker within 1" of an Oblivion Knight during the Combat Phase roll a d6. On a 4+ the psyker takes one mortal wound.

Inquisition
Interrogator
M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 4, A 3, Ld 8, Sv 4+
Identical to an Inquisitor in all ways other than the statline.

Necrons
Necron Captain (Necron Lord, no Resurrection Orb, otherwise unchanged)

Eldar
Xentarch (apprentice Autarch) (Autarch Skyrunner, Autarch with Hawk wings, or Autarch Skyrunner. -1 W/A/Ld, replace Forceshield with Refractor Field, replace Path of Command with Patrol Leader. May not have a Reaper Launcher.)
Seers (Warlock, Warlock Skyrunner, Spiritseer, unaltered.)

Dark Eldar
Dracon (as per Archon -1 W/A/Ld, replace Shadowfield with Refractor Field)
Bloodbride (as per Succubus, -1 W/A, replace Brides of Death with Patrol Leader working on Wych Cult units only.)
Haemonculus-Adept (as per Haemonculus, -1 W/A)

Harlequins
Deputy Troupe Master (as per Troupe Master, -1 W/A/Ld. Replace Choreographer of War with Choreographer of Skirmishes (same thing only just reroll 1s)).
Shadowseer-Adept (as per Shadowseer, -1 W/Ld. May only cast/deny one per per turn.)

Orks
Underboss (Warboss or Warboss on Warbike. -1 W/S.)
Wierdboy (unaltered)
Mek (unaltered)

Tau
Shas'el (Commander or Fireblade. BS 3+, -1 W. Replace Master of War/Volley Fire with Patrol Leader. Battlesuit Commander may only take one additional weapon/support system.)
Ethereal (unaltered)
Kroot Shaper Apprentice (Kroot Shaper, -1 W.)

Tyranids
Warrior-Secundus (as per Prime, -1 W, replace Alpha Warrior with Patrol Leader)
Genestealer Cult-Secundus (as per Primus, -1W, replace Cult Demagogue with Patrol Leader)

Chaos Marines
Chaos Champion (Lord or Lord on Bike, replace Sigil of Corruption with Refractor Field, replace Lord of Chaos with Patrol Leader. -1 W/A/Ld, BS3+.)
Dark Priest (Dark Apostle, replace Dark Zealotry with Patrol Leader and replace Sigil of Corruption with Refractor Field.)
Sorcerer-Apprentice (Sorcerer or Sorcerer on Bike, only knows one power in addition to Smite and may only cast/deny one power a turn.)

Chaos Daemons
Herald (any god, on foot only, unaltered)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/27 03:34:06


Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte




U.K.

I think the easiest solution is a list for each army of what can/cannot be taken.

Power armour should be in, it doesnt matter that its save can be modified positively by cover, it can also be modified negatively by weapons. Things like Noxious Blightbringers, Blightspawn, Chaplains, Meks, Techpriests and the like should be in, stuff like Lords of Contagion, Magos Dominus, Chapter Masters, Space Marine Captains, Ork Warbosses and the like should be out. believe changing rules for units already well established in 40k is a mistake, the whole idea is just about paring back and using more basic forces. CP forces should be about tactical marines and scouts, ork kommandos, guardsmen and scout sentinels, chaos cultists alongside chaos marines and so on. I think that with the new rules with things like weapons in the same unit being able to fire at different targets that it will be more interesting than last edition

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/27 23:35:43


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Fresh-Faced New User




Wyldhunt wrote:
Blackdheild_Barbarian wrote:
Sorry for the long gap in coms I had problems with my laptop recently coupled with essays over the Christmass period

Please find attached our draft rules, there has been some play testing but not alot if honest.

Patrols must consist of

. 400-750 points or 20-30 power level
. No special characters.
• No 2+ saves.
• No vehicles with wounds greater than 10
. No character with more than 3 wounds
. You must have a completed, detailed roster and access to the relevant Codex.

As you might not pick an HQ choice, the patrol should still have a commander who gives the orders and against which Leadership tests are made. This, of course, would be the most senior ranking figure. In the case of two figures being of an equal rank then the player may choose which is the patrol’s leader,and only that figure may confer its Leadership bonus to friendly squads.

optinal
games last 40-45 mins (you must complete your turn you are on whenthe time is up)
gmes last 40 turns
[/img]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The idea of only having a 3 wounds restriction went down like lead balloon

On FB they wanted a 4 wound restriction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the idea for a 3 wound restriction went down like a lead Ballon. the facebook group wanted a 4 wound restriction.


Doesn't 30 PL roughly translate to about 600 points rather than 750? Other than that, I'll mostly reiterate some of my previous thoughts:

a.) Why no special characters? What concerns do you have that have caused you to prevent them, and can those concerns be addressed without preventing me from playing a cool, fluffy combat patrol skirmish between Drazhar's entourage and Karandras's students?

b.) Why no 2+ saves? I know this was a restriction in past versions of combat patrol, but we're in a new edition now where a tactical marine in ruins has a 2+ and tons of weapons can reduce that 2+ with AP. If half my opponent's army is wrapped up in terminators that are sitting in cover, I'm very okay with him shrugging off a wound on a 2+ instead of a 3+ when out in the open. Again, I'm curious to know what the concern being addressed by this is as it prevents a lot of not necessarily problematic options from being fielded.

c.) 10 wounds seems like a reasonable cut off, although I'd point out that it still allows things like razorbacks into the game. Have you considered just barring all models with a Toughness of 6 or higher? This would also catch any especially durable MCs (no need to specifically call out vehicles these days with 8th edition's mechanics).

d.) You've already mentioned that the wound limit for characters has met with a lot of resistance. Have you considered just dropping that particular limitation entirely? Again, what is the concern that such a limit addresses? Are space marine captains a problem in Combat Patrol? Why add a limitation that prevents people from fielding a wider variety of fluffy forces?


a.) Why no special characters? What concerns do you have that have caused you to prevent them, and can those concerns be addressed without preventing me from playing a cool, fluffy combat patrol skirmish between Drazhar's entourage and Karandras's students?
We don’t mind Characters but when it comes to special characters we have to keep to the ‘spirit of the game’ or in other words the LORE and general common-sense. Can you imagine Ghazghkull Thraka or Calgar going out on a patrol? Or even that a commissar (the Catachans would find a way of convincing him/her) where they would have everything to lose if they were to die and patrols have been known to go missing. Second special (named) characters are OP in small scale games like this.
b.) Why no 2+ saves? I know this was a restriction in past versions of combat patrol, but we're in a new edition now where a tactical marine in ruins has a 2+ and tons of weapons can reduce that 2+ with AP. If half my opponent's army is wrapped up in terminators that are sitting in cover, I'm very okay with him shrugging off a wound on a 2+ instead of a 3+ when out in the open. Again, I'm curious to know what the concern being addressed by this is as it prevents a lot of not necessarily problematic options from being fielded.

Spirit of the game again. Many 2+ plus units are rare like terminators as Kaullus puts it “The idea behind combat patrol was that it represented more 'basic' forces. They didnt include things like terminators because they are more elite, a lot rarer, generally not being used in smaller scale skirmishes”.

c.) 10 wounds seems like a reasonable cut off, although I'd point out that it still allows things like razorbacks into the game. Have you considered just barring all models with a Toughness of 6 or higher? This would also catch any especially durable MCs (no need to specifically call out vehicles these days with 8th edition's mechanics).

We haven’t no, that’s the first suggestion of that ilk that has came up. There has been mainly from Tau and the one single grey knight player of having Power Limit on vehicles so they can potentially field a Devilfish.

d.) You've already mentioned that the wound limit for characters has met with a lot of resistance. Have you considered just dropping that particular limitation entirely? Again, what is the concern that such a limit addresses? Are space marine captains a problem in Combat Patrol? Why add a limitation that prevents people from fielding a wider variety of fluffy forces?

Everything is up for discussion



Automatically Appended Next Post:
When it comes to charectors and allowing 2+ armour saves we have got to be carefull that we don't sudenly enter the world and domain of Killteam too much (this should be reserved for games likes pace hulk etc.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/30 11:16:50


 
   
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 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:
The idea behind combat patrol was that it represented more 'basic' forces. They didnt include things like terminators because they are more elite, a lot rarer, generally not being used in smaller scale skirmishes and finally to even out saves by making 3+ the best you could get. There were limits on heavy weapons and ordnance which basically made the game troops vs troops and light vehicles. No special characters, no Lords running around.
If you want to play with those guys then play a bigger game, the game is called 'Combat Patrol' for a reason


I see where you're coming from, but here are some counterpoints:

a.) I find the idea of a phoenix lord and his pals or shadowsun and her cadre or a squad of terminators facing off in a small scale battle really cool. Saying "just play a big game" means that you don't really get to zoom in on the action with such characters quite as much, and you don't get to play out certain types of stories. How cool would it be to have a squad of grey knights trying to assassinate the Masque while she's isolated? How about having a squad of isolated terminators holding off a swarm of termagaunts? These seem like scenarios that would be reasonable in terms of both the fluff and the mechanics of combat patrol. Yeah, Celestine is a problem in Combat Patrol, but don't punish a hundred other characters that would be perfectly fine.

b.) If we're going by the "it's literally meant to be some dudes patrolling" argument, then it seems odd that I can field my semi-aware wraith guard, a squad of rubric marines, or a unit of lych guard, but I can't have Illic the Super Scout Nightspear, Shadowsun, Tellion, Karandras, or Death Leaper.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The starting point for combat patrol 40k should probably be to take a look at Age of Sigmar: Skirmish and Age of Sigmar: Path to Glory. 8th edition 40k is way, way close to AoS than to previous editions of 40k.

Having played more games than I can count of AoS: Skirmish/Path to Glory and then finding it's very compatible with 40k and playing tons of barely house rule 40k: Skirmish, I don't think the same design concerns from previous editions of 40k apply at all.

I also think the special character restriction doesn't make much sense from a fictional perspective. The black library novels are chocked full of named characters fighting at this level of engagement. A trusted squad and a couple heroes, maybe a single other interesting thing. It happens all the time in the novels.

2+ save restriction shows a lot of previous edition thinking. As has been pointed out, every time a space marine gets cover, you have 2+ save in your game.

What we do for our 500 point games, skirmish or not, is to simply require anyone taking anything with 7 wounds or greater (or the vehicle keyword) to tell the opponent what they are taking and allow the opponent to modify their list in response if they are also not already taking a similar model. For speed of play, some people have already preprepared 2 lists. One with their normal stuff and one with a bit more anti-tank or a vehicle themselves. This has led to a 10 second pre game "anything big?" check and people putting down the appropriate list.

Oh, and if someone doesn't have appropriate anti-tank stuff painted yet, they simply say no. You can't use anything with 7 or more wounds unless your opponent can either do so as well or has a list they want to take against such a model. If your higher wound model is a rhino, people might not care and can just go with their regular list, but if its a predator, that might change their mind.

Also, different things are stronger in smaller point games, so if you've got a bunch of people doing a competitive matched play approach for combat patrol, things will shake out as obviously better and obviously worse. We tend to use Open War cards and haven't had too many problems with people trying to figure out what is the strongest list possible. Everyone tends to take what they are excited to paint.

Current painting project: Mixed nurgle 40k army
Current terrain project: DIY Zone Mortalis terrain
Current rules project: 40k Skirmish 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced Inquisitorial Acolyte




U.K.

the black library novels are chock full of named characters fighting because thats what sells. You can say that a patrol with a special character would happen, because it does, but its far less common than all the other patrol skirmishes. People just want the special snowflakes , but when it happens all the time, which it more than likely will with some, then its kind of missing out on the small scale joe bloggs battles. Its fun to have them very so often, but taking them all the time makes them feel less special. Im not 100% against them, you can always talk to your fellow gamers about certain types of games such as SCs being used, or terms against hordes of gaunts, theyre both v cool but should probably not be the default and more of a 'special scenario' type thing.

Maybe different types of missions allow you certain things like a SC versus lots of enemy troops such as assasin or karandras, a bit like the standard 40k missions and then say planetstrike or or bunker assault. Last stand could be an elite unit vs hordes etc that have a sustained assault type thing and you note how long the unit survives, or maybe till 6 turns is up and then a thawk comes in to rescue them, teleport homer locks onto Inquisitor and teleports him out or the like

3 SPRUUUUUEESSSS!!!! 
   
 
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