Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What's the view of the Imperium on human cloning. Is it considered heresy? Isn't acceptable as long as the clones are perfectly humans? I have heard somewhere that some servitors were built on cloned humans and that Kreigs might be clones (or at least vat-born). Could a planet count on extansive cloning program to produce new members for its society?

According to James Swallow's Red & Black, clones are not considered people under Imperial law. Not only do they have literally no rights, it is actually illegal for an Imperial world to grant them rights or any level of independence. Legally, they must always be slaves. Even allowing them independence of thought is legally dodgy, as arguably that violates the ban on AI.

So a world producing "new members for its society" is explicitly a no-no, but producing servitor bodies or helot-soldiers by cloning is fine as long as measures are taken to ensure they can never break their slave-programming.

Of course, this might be putting too much faith in one BL author to have got the nuances of Imperial Law correct...

Also, "vat-born" or "vat-grown" doesn't necessarily imply cloning. Imperial law seems to distinguish between mass-producing copies of a single (probably artificially-constructed) genotype and merely using IVF and artificial wombs to avoid taking half the population out of fighting readiness for nine months at a time (which AFAIK is what the Krieg do). The latter isn't cloning as far as the Imperium is concerned.

Bio cloning tech is pretty advanced

They can clone replacement limbs, it takes time to heal the wounds to allow a organic replacement, but they can replace arms, hands etc in Elishorn.

Space marines can dip hands in acid and have flesh regrow etc.

They can grow servitors, biologicaly upgrade kreig horses etx. Also genetics and bio augmented soldiers, humans, and others. It's expensive but can be done.

Theres a inquisitor who got bio upgraded to be a near spacemairine level super soldier. Near. There'd a human limit.

epronovost wrote:
What's the view of the Imperium on human cloning. Is it considered heresy? Isn't acceptable as long as the clones are perfectly humans? I have heard somewhere that some servitors were built on cloned humans and that Kreigs might be clones (or at least vat-born). Could a planet count on extansive cloning program to produce new members for its society?

You're talking about a galactic empire that clones babies with angel's wings, to turn into creepy "cherubs" that buzz around some big wig to make them feel holy. Ditto for other kinds of Servitors that aren't condemned individuals. In other words, cloning is acceptable in some cases (and those cases would be official cases, managed/carried out by the Magos Biologis. Anybody else, and it's HERESY).


The Kriegers use a combination of artificial incubation and natural birth to keep their numbers up. They're not actual clones, though they might as well be considering their aloof and cold personalities, and desire to die in droves like the proverbial lemmings.

Iirc in the priests of Mars series a tech Magos clones himself to create a successor. It goes wrong and he gets a daughter instead.
OFC Mechanicus rarely follow imperial rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wee find out in Talon of Horus that the legionarys really hate cloning. (Except Fabius, of course )

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Iirc in the priests of Mars series a tech Magos clones himself to create a successor. It goes wrong and he gets a daughter instead.
OFC Mechanicus rarely follow imperial rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wee find out in Talon of Horus that the legionarys really hate cloning. (Except Fabius, of course )

Meh admech... By thr time your a senior. Your so augmented no one has any biological parts.

Cawl could have been a woman.. Admech cares not for gender.
Any, and all flesh is infiror to the machine.

Well, it's not heresy on Krieg for sure.

Also, the Skitarii are all made-men created from vats. Only senior commanders are normal humans receiving the gifts of the Machine God.

Duskweaver wrote:
According to James Swallow's Red & Black, clones are not considered people under Imperial law...

Of course, this might be putting too much faith in one BL author to have got the nuances of Imperial Law correct... ;.

Of course he got it correct. It's something never before addressed, so there's literally no way the author could have got it wrong; he's adding to the background, not referring to it. Of course, something else my contradict that, but hey, it's a big Imperium, and not everyone gets the latest amendments, addenda, new legislation or repeals of old laws at the same time.

bibotot wrote:
Well, it's not heresy on Krieg for sure.

Also, the Skitarii are all made-men created from vats. Only senior commanders are normal humans receiving the gifts of the Machine God.

Pretty sure it's never stated that Krieg uses cloning.

There's also the Afriel Strain, which was an attempt by someone within the Imperium to effectively clone their greatest heroes to create the perfect IG regiment.

AndrewGPaul wrote:

Duskweaver wrote:
According to James Swallow's Red & Black, clones are not considered people under Imperial law...

Of course, this might be putting too much faith in one BL author to have got the nuances of Imperial Law correct... ;.

Of course he got it correct. It's something never before addressed, so there's literally no way the author could have got it wrong; he's adding to the background, not referring to it. Of course, something else my contradict that, but hey, it's a big Imperium, and not everyone gets the latest amendments, addenda, new legislation or repeals of old laws at the same time.

I reckon it’s more like cloned products remaining entirely the property of the original donor, even if sapient. So if someone nicks a chunk of your liver and clones it they are guilty of theft, and fraud if they try to sell it (especially if they try to sell it back to you!). But the Law doesn’t differentiate between a liver, a limb, or a life.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Well, it's not heresy on Krieg for sure.

Also, the Skitarii are all made-men created from vats. Only senior commanders are normal humans receiving the gifts of the Machine God.

Pretty sure it's never stated that Krieg uses cloning.

Indeed they repeatedly go to the trouble of pointing out that what the Krieger’s do is not cloning, but is still dodgy as anything and sails far too close to the line for them to get away with it if they weren’t churning out fanatically loyal regiments by the dozen.

Krieg doesn't actually use clones. What they use is artificial wombs to grow new humans, who are conceived in a lab, and then artificially have their growth sped up. Every member of Krieg society donates their sperm/eggs as needed.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

AndrewGPaul wrote:

Duskweaver wrote:
According to James Swallow's Red & Black, clones are not considered people under Imperial law...

Of course, this might be putting too much faith in one BL author to have got the nuances of Imperial Law correct... ;.

Of course he got it correct. It's something never before addressed, so there's literally no way the author could have got it wrong; he's adding to the background, not referring to it. Of course, something else my contradict that, but hey, it's a big Imperium, and not everyone gets the latest amendments, addenda, new legislation or repeals of old laws at the same time.

I reckon it’s more like cloned products remaining entirely the property of the original donor, even if sapient. So if someone nicks a chunk of your liver and clones it they are guilty of theft, and fraud if they try to sell it (especially if they try to sell it back to you!). But the Law doesn’t differentiate between a liver, a limb, or a life.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Well, it's not heresy on Krieg for sure.

Also, the Skitarii are all made-men created from vats. Only senior commanders are normal humans receiving the gifts of the Machine God.

Pretty sure it's never stated that Krieg uses cloning.

Indeed they repeatedly go to the trouble of pointing out that what the Krieger’s do is not cloning, but is still dodgy as anything and sails far too close to the line for them to get away with it if they weren’t churning out fanatically loyal regiments by the dozen.

Ans impirum is so desperate for man power that they turn a blind eye.