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Hello, I've been trying to find some clarity on this subject for a bit now but haven't seen it brought up anywhere (Could be my google-fu is weak)

The question is in regards to the Forge World Relic Contemptor's rule 'Unstoppable Fury', which reads (roughly) "When equipped with 2 Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons you can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for this model".

Seems obvious how it works when you look at it within the context of a regular dreadnought, but the Relic Contemptor can take a bunch of 'hand weapons' like Plasma Blastguns and Cyclone Missile Launchers on it's back, and while Rules as Written it appears that Unstoppable Fury would allow you to re-roll 1's for those, it definitely does not look to be the way it's intended. Am I Reading this wrong, or is that how it actually works?

Bonus Question: Is there any 'non-relic' Contemptor that can take double fists? The only ones I've found is the super limited Burning of Prospero(Or was it betrayal?) Contemptor in the Codex, the Relic Contemptor and the Mortis Contemptor (Which can only take guns).

Thanks in advance

the rule reads "Unstoppable Fury: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for this model if it is equipped with two melee weapons."

key phrase here for me is hit rolls - so both shooting and melee.

as for your bonus question the SM codex contemptor doesn't appear to be able to take two fists/melee weapons - but as you cant get the unstoppable fury perk, the points might be better spent elsewhere anyway!

No, there are no other contemptor for 40k that can take double fists, in the codex or fw book.
for index or other sources idk.

As for the rule, the logical interpitation is that it is rerolls for the fists only. (that is how i atleast will use that rule)
And there is no mention of it in the faq 6 months ago. (dunno if there are any faq from FW since then released)

RAW you can reroll 1s in the shooting and in the fight phase. RAI only in the fight phase ? I dont think so. Otherwise it would have been mentioned in the index forces of the adeptus astartes update 1.2.

I dunno about it being FAQ'd. This is Forge World we're talking about after all... Don't get me wrong, getting re-rolls on Plasma Blastguns and the Cyclone would be really good, but that's part of why I Think it's not how it 'should' be, it's REALLY good :/

Guess I'll discuss it with my opponents Before each game, and ask the TO for tournaments.

So weird that there's no normal FW contemptor... Oh well, Mortis or Relic it is I suppose.

the rule clearly states hit rolls, not hit rolls in the fight/ shooting phase - so i believe it should be good for both. I agree it doesnt make sense but its the rules.

A clearer case for melee only is for the ironclad ability "Wrecker: You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for this model
when it fights if it is equipped with two melee weapons."

I agree on the RAW, it's just one of those cases where I go "Is this the intention... Or is it just Forge World being Forge World?"

I dunno, just feels dirty xD

Think its a case of forgeworld using a poor choice of words - but take it!

p5freak wrote:
RAW you can reroll 1s in the shooting and in the fight phase. RAI only in the fight phase ? I dont think so. Otherwise it would have been mentioned in the index forces of the adeptus astartes update 1.2.

as written means it is overpowered as hell and the whole models needs a point increase!

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

p5freak wrote:
RAW you can reroll 1s in the shooting and in the fight phase. RAI only in the fight phase ? I dont think so. Otherwise it would have been mentioned in the index forces of the adeptus astartes update 1.2.

as written means it is overpowered as hell and the whole models needs a point increase!

Note that it's specifically only when it's equipped with 2 Dreadnought Close Combat weapons, it's still really good but it's very likely a wording error on their part and if anything it should be the DCW's that should have a Point increase. But then they don't become worthwhile if you want to keep the Contemptor focused on just melee... So just one big pile of balancing problems.

It can re-roll hits with ranged weapons, yes. Ignore anyone trying to guilt-trip you by saying it's not "intended" or "abuse".

It's Forge World being Forge World. I definitely wouldn't use it.

Yea the Forge World Book , Current edition does not distinguish between shooting or fight phase.

SO its re-roll 1's to hit period.

Is it over powered? Naw. Its ok.

If you outfitted it with , plasma blast gun x2, fist x2, cyclone launcher , its 307 points.

It’s pretty clearly not intended. Just follow some form of sense.

RAW is clear, but given gwvthemsekves don’t think raw is a real thing, good luck with sticking to it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It’s pretty clearly not intended. Just follow some form of sense.

RAW is clear, but given gwvthemsekves don’t think raw is a real thing, good luck with sticking to it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't Believe this is how they intended it to be read either, but claiming "Rules as Written" isn't a thing is claiming the rules mean nothing.

Interpreting rules based on RAW (The most objective way to read the rules) is using the language and words the Rules Writers used to figure out how something works. Sometimes the intention is "clear", but that doesn't mean the discussion isn't Worth having regarding the RAW, if only to bring attention to a possible loop-hole that needs patching.

Rerolling 1s in the shooting phase is not a big deal. Dark angels have it for free, its their chapter tactic. Not for all units, and only if they didnt move.

GW don’t think raw is a real thing. They just don’t, when it contradicts their intention behind a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
GW don’t think raw is a real thing. They just don’t, when it contradicts their intention behind a rule.

All that means is they are bad at writting consistent rules (News at 11), not that RAW isn't a thing. Because again, if RAW doesn't mean anything, it means the rules don't mean anything. I can claim their intention with Battleshock tests was "the number of models that come back to Life", and I'd be just as right as you claiming Unstoppable Fury doesn't allow re-roll 1's to hit with all weapons.

Obviously my example is far more egregious of a rules breaking, but all the same they're both wrong interpretations of the Rules as they are Written.

AGAIN. I do not Think how it's written is how it's intended in this case, but that just means (as I said above) that they can't write consistent rules.

Lungpickle wrote:
Yea the Forge World Book , Current edition does not distinguish between shooting or fight phase.

yea i have noticed that in the past 2 weeks as i create my dread army.

another example that falls into the same issue as this topic is the chaplain`s icon of hate ability.
the words >combat< and >fight< as used in its description are some of the worst they could have choosen, and does not explain in detail if it is mele, ranged or both.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

another example that falls into the same issue as this topic is the chaplain`s icon of hate ability.
the words >combat< and >fight< as used in its description are some of the worst they could have choosen, and does not explain in detail if it is mele, ranged or both.

The words "....for the duration of the fight phase." are pretty clear. What would +1 do in the shooting phase anyway ? There are no ranged weapons for marines who depend on the strength characteristic.

RejjeN wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
GW don’t think raw is a real thing. They just don’t, when it contradicts their intention behind a rule.

All that means is they are bad at writting consistent rules (News at 11), not that RAW isn't a thing. Because again, if RAW doesn't mean anything, it means the rules don't mean anything. I can claim their intention with Battleshock tests was "the number of models that come back to Life", and I'd be just as right as you claiming Unstoppable Fury doesn't allow re-roll 1's to hit with all weapons.

Obviously my example is far more egregious of a rules breaking, but all the same they're both wrong interpretations of the Rules as they are Written.

AGAIN. I do not Think how it's written is how it's intended in this case, but that just means (as I said above) that they can't write consistent rules.

You’re preaching to the choir
Seriously. Look at number of posts. Been here since 4th, from memory.

I also know two or three of the studio, and they really don’t think strict at all costs raw, as BCB advocates, is a thing. It’s thought quite hilarious. Hence, don’t be a d*ck is the rule at our club - if it’s obviously not intended, don’t do it.

Except for some who know the people from the rules team most of us players cannot know the intention of the rule writers. Thats why its important that rules are written as precise and clear as possible. If an update is released, and something like this is not changed, then its probably intended.

It’s great if they do write clear rules. I never say it shouldn’t be clear. However they will never be precise.
Better this edition yes, but never perfect.

You can tell that a rule where you get better at hitting people with fists is unlikely to be meant to I,prove your shooting. It’s not a tricky one.

since GW bases its rules around fluff in some cases maybe the dreadnaught gets better at shooting due to less complex arm weaponry.

No one but GW knows the "Whys" of the rules unless GW explicitly tells us. I've seen times when most people think that a rule should be interpreted one way and GW comes out and says it's to be done in a different manner.