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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





With some stuff from the new daemons codex showing up and getting highlights in faction focus, for the most part they seemed reasonable, with the exception of this:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/40kDaemonsPreview-Dec28-Boxout4hd-500x308.jpg

The thing that really jumps out at me is that while it might do nothing some of the time, when it works it can create massively untouchable forces that can be worse than any -1 to hit mechanics currently in play, and those reductions of to-hit were already being considered by many to be some of the worst elements of 8th's design.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 18:34:12


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





It only applies to close combat so I don't think it will be as devastating as the -1 to hit from shooting.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





There's not many units with 5+ Fight either. Orks have a practically universal 5+ shooting but the only other things that'll be affected really are already terrible in the Fight phase to begin with. While making it so that there's both a chance to avoid it due to bad rolling, and many fighty characters and units tend to have a 3+ to hit already.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 18:44:57


 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Most annoying thing about that is it's bloody fiddly.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Had to read it 3 times to figure out what it meant. Jezz GW

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's highly likely to not do anything at all, and even when it does it has the same effect of a -1 to hit. Nothing to see here, we already had the -1 to hit in melee.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Fight phase only. -1 to hit wold have been lightyears better.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Spoletta wrote:
It's highly likely to not do anything at all, and even when it does it has the same effect of a -1 to hit. Nothing to see here, we already had the -1 to hit in melee.


This effect stacks with the changeling. which is exactly why it seemed like a bad idea to me, it reeks of old invisibility.
   
Made in ie
Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Had to read it 3 times to figure out what it meant. Jezz GW


Same

Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be

By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.

"Feelin' goods, good enough". 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





It doesn't actually stack with the Changeling because its pre-modifiers.
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





It is significantly worse than -1 to hit. WS 5+ is rare and those units with it are not charging into close combat even then it is unlikely to do anything. So against WS 4+, 25% of the time it is equivalent to -1 to hit. The rest of the time it does nothing. Against 3+ to hit 44% of the time it is equivalent to -1 to hit, the rest of the time it does nothing. Now if changling is still the same it can be randomly very annoying. But on face value it is akin to a rule that said "on a 5+ this unit is -1 to hit. Except it is better against higher WS units than it is vs lower WS units. Against WS 5+ it works 1/9th of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Farseer_V2 wrote:
It doesn't actually stack with the Changeling because its pre-modifiers.


It sort of does. If you are WS 3+ and you throw out your 4s you essentially become -2 to hit. But changling means it does something less often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said we don't know that the changeling still does the same thing. Maybe he has this locus but gets some bonus to it (takes higher dice instead of lower)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/28 19:47:24


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





just something to put in so people can see the numbers, if we consider 3, 4 and 5 to be desirable numbers to roll, there is a 41.66% chance to get any of those three values. with 19.44% of that being the chance to get a three.

http://anydice.com/program/e12f

the locus function shows the possible statistical results.

It's not as strong as I first predicted by itself, but combined with a command reroll, and the changeling or other stratagems (unknown at this time) it could be quite potent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 19:50:01


 
   
Made in us
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





But 3 is not a desirable result. Against any WS other than 2+, against a 3+ it is equivalent to -1 to hit, but if you use the changeling it does nothing. The most desireablr result is a 6, which is a 1/36 chance. Followed by a 5, 3/36 chance, followed by a 4, 5/36 chance. Thats (if you use changling) is a 25% chance before any re-roll. The CP re-roll is not a great investment though unless you are against a WS 3+ unit and have one high dice. It isn't bad but it is not particularly strong, and is highly random. The changling is good (if unchanged) but his inclusion actually makes this ability worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would argue it is decided worse than the khorne or slaanesh loci. As both of those seem to always be useful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/28 20:09:34


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






I think it's an exceptionally fiddly way of making them -1 to hit "most of the time". Is it a problem when stacked? Sure.

 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight




Maybe I just don't get it but it seems to me to be saying if the Daemon player rolls say "6" and "4" that when I swing at him every die of mine that has a "4" on it after re-rolls is a miss while all the "2"s, "3"s, "5" and "6"s could hit (assuming no modifiers). I then add all the modifiers to the rest of my dice and see whether or not I hit.
   
Made in ca
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker






Tzeetch and nurgle seem to be not as good, just for the simple reason that they interact with RNG. Rerolling a charge, and being able to move faster and still charge will always apply in some form, while the other two might very well never come up.

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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





That's it.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

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Made in us
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 Elbows wrote:
I think it's an exceptionally fiddly way of making them -1 to hit "most of the time". Is it a problem when stacked? Sure.


It isn't even most of the time. Since you keep the lower of 2 dice most of the time you are doing nothing.
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress




Tacoma, WA, USA

That is exactly what it says. If there are no other modifiers on the attack, all good.

If the Changeling is giving your opponent a -1 to Hit, then it gets weird:
  • Attacker needs 3+ to Hit, Locus Roll 3: The Locus negates the Changeling since 3 are misses before the modifier

  • Attacker needs 3+ to Hit, Locus Roll 4: The Locus causes 4 to miss and the Changeling causes 3 to miss. Same thing as an additional -1 to Hit

  • Attacker needs 3+ to Hit, Locus Roll of 5: The Locus causes 5 to miss and the Changeling causes 3 to miss. Average effect is the same as a -2 to Hit, but oddly implemented since 4's hit but not 5's

  • Attacker needs 3+ to Hit, Locus Roll of 6: The Locus causes 6 to miss and the Changeling causes 3 to miss. Average effect is the same as a -2 to Hit, but opponent get's really annoyed if 6's to Hit have special rules
  •    
    Made in us
    Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





    The changling would negate th bonus on 6s to hit anyway.
       
    Made in ie
    Missionary On A Mission





    You're all assuming The Changlings rules will stay the same.

       
    Made in us
    Awesome Autarch






    Breng77 wrote:
     Elbows wrote:
    I think it's an exceptionally fiddly way of making them -1 to hit "most of the time". Is it a problem when stacked? Sure.


    It isn't even most of the time. Since you keep the lower of 2 dice most of the time you are doing nothing.


    Not as I read it.

    The way I read is that you auto-fail on whatever dice result you roll. Not above, or below, but that exact result. So you roll a 4 and a 2. Your enemy will auto-fail hits which roll a '2' before any modifiers or re-rolls, etc. It doesn't trigger if you roll, say, a 6 and a 1, as 1's are already auto-fails, etc.

     
       
    Made in us
    Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





    I think what Breng means is that against the vast majority of opponents the 2 was a failed to-hit anyways. You have to get at least a 3 on 2d6-drop-highest to expect significant value out of the ability, which isn't great odds.
       
    Made in us
    Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




    Inside Yvraine

    WindstormSCR wrote:
    It's not as strong as I first predicted by itself, but combined with a command reroll, and the changeling or other stratagems (unknown at this time) it could be quite potent.


    So in actuality, what you're saying is that it's a fairly balanced ability.

     
       
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    Northridge, CA

     BlaxicanX wrote:
    WindstormSCR wrote:
    It's not as strong as I first predicted by itself, but combined with a command reroll, and the changeling or other stratagems (unknown at this time) it could be quite potent.
    So in actuality, what you're saying is that it's a fairly balanced ability.
    Perish the thought.
       
    Made in us
    Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





     Arachnofiend wrote:
    I think what Breng means is that against the vast majority of opponents the 2 was a failed to-hit anyways. You have to get at least a 3 on 2d6-drop-highest to expect significant value out of the ability, which isn't great odds.


    Right the ability is you roll 2d6 drop the highest, and then you opponents hit rolls of the lower value auto fail.

    20/36 times that lower number will be a 1 or a 2 so 55% of the time against most opponents it does absolutely nothing.
       
    Made in us
    Regular Dakkanaut





     BlaxicanX wrote:
    WindstormSCR wrote:
    It's not as strong as I first predicted by itself, but combined with a command reroll, and the changeling or other stratagems (unknown at this time) it could be quite potent.


    So in actuality, what you're saying is that it's a fairly balanced ability.


    It might be, but it doesn't stop it from being bad design either. Since as others have posted not only is it very confusing to some, but it has limited options for the opponent to engage with it in any meaningful way. it's just a "haha you": the ability. And is far from the only case of such a thing in 8th, thus the original thread title.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 00:47:13


     
       
    Made in us
    Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





    Sure their is a meaningful way to engage with it you shoot your opponent as it doesn't apply to anything but close combat.
       
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    Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord




    Inside Yvraine

    WindstormSCR wrote:
    it's just a "haha you": the ability.
    I mean, so are saving throws, going by your logic.

    What is the difference between "you rolled a 3, your attack misses" and "I rolled a 3, your attack soes nothing"?

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 01:12:40


     
       
    Made in us
    Regular Dakkanaut





     BlaxicanX wrote:
    WindstormSCR wrote:
    it's just a "haha you": the ability.
    I mean, so are saving throws, going by your logic.

    What is the difference between "you rolled a 3, your attack misses" and "I rolled a 3, your attack soes nothing"?


    Well, to put it in context, at least with other hit penalties several armies have methods of adding to hit rolls as well, so my definition of interaction here is that there is at least something that can be done to mitigate it.

    I'm of the opinion that anything that messes with attacks prior to the save roll isn't good design, because it creates several meta twisting problems all to itself. That means giving factions armywide -1 to hit, this thing, and yes, even conceal, nightshroud, and some of the unit abilities in the Craftworlds codex. If every army had equal options for shooting and melee, making 'just shoot them' the answer might be fine. But across the spectrum of factions that is far from the case. 7th had a problem with invulnerables and FnP. 8th is developing a problem with hit modifiers.
       
     
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