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Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



The Gates of Hell

Hey guys, I feel that it is almost impossible to make a competative list (in the sense that it can beat Top Nids or Eldar anything especially Alitoic) I feel like an absolute butthead when I use Guilliman as a crutch, but without him. Winning is borderline impossible agaisnt decent non-codex armies. I feel even worse for my non- Primarched counterparts. As they were screwed over by our codex being first even more than I. But Ultramarines are a key example or the descrepency between w/wo Guilli. So here is my attempt at a list that wont get steamrolled and at the end how GW can fix/un-nerf us.

List 1: Ballance
Spoiler:

Idea: Tiggy gives the Hellblasters a -1 to hit and throw them in cover for a 2+ save with Guilliman for rerolls and Ancient for a sweet gunline. Agressors act as a counter-charge unit and try and handle infantry spam a bit. I feel bare without Lascannons and everyone will say to bring Assault Cannons instead but I dont see the oppurtunith cost being worth it? Convince me im wrong, cause I probally am.

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 385pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 385pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [81 PL, 1611pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ HQ +

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 130pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Psychic Scourge, 4) Fury of the Ancients, 5) Psychic Fortress, 6) Null Zone

Sergeant Chronus [2 PL, 40pts]

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 78pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 78pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 90pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 222pts]: 5x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Company Ancient [4 PL, 65pts]: Standard of the Emperor Ascendant, Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [16 PL, 330pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 9x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [99 PL, 1996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
[spoiler]

List 2: Armor Focused
[spoiler]
Really the same Idea as the last list, but with Ven Dreads to act as anti armor and are able to fall back. (The thing I have agaisnt predators and refuse to use them, even though i have a bunch lol)

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [18 PL, 385pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ Lord of War +

Roboute Guilliman [18 PL, 385pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [81 PL, 1612pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

+ HQ +

Chief Librarian Tigurius [7 PL, 130pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 2) Might of Heroes, 3) Psychic Scourge, 4) Fury of the Ancients, 5) Psychic Fortress, 6) Null Zone

Sergeant Chronus [2 PL, 40pts]

+ Troops +

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 78pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 78pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

+ Elites +

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator
. 4x Hellblaster
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 116pts]: Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [99 PL, 1997pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


So what do you all think? Usually I'm the one helping with lists but im stuck after losses to lists I had no chance agaisnt even with RoCheese Guilliman. Also I may add in a "How to fix Marines" in Proposed or in Tactics. Ill edit to add in a link, but here are some of my suggestions for GW.

(+) Assualt Squads and Bikes count as Troops and gain ObSec if a Character is on a Bike/Jump Pack.

(+) Chainswords are S User, AP -1 and Extra Attack (Yes for you Chaos boys too, Chainaxes will still be good for making Berzerkers S6 so no its not to much we already pay 2pts fpr Combi and Storm bolters for a slight upgrade over Bolters so Chainaxes will still be good. )

(+) Space Marine Vehicles can shoot while in Combat (Other than Whirlwind, Stalker and Hunter. (Really all Vehicles should be able to but Guard would be so incredibly OP.
Vehicles also have Crushing tracks at -1AP for all Tread Using Factions.

(+)Whirlwind Tanks have New Profiles for Rockets.
Vengence: Heavy | Flat 6 Shots S7 | AP -2 | 2D Ignore Cover and LOS
Castelan: Heavy |12 Shots S6| Ap-1| D1 Ignore Cover and LOS

(+)Vindicator Tanks Weapon Profile now
Demolisher Cannon Assualt 2 |S10| D D6 (Lowest is 3) Units within 3' of the target take D6 S5 AP 0 Hits.

(+) Repulsor Tank lower the dang costs. Its a knock off land raider with worse stats. Even while Land Raiders already suck.

Ill open up another trend for the rest of my ideas. I tried to buff Marines instead of Nerfing other factions. Ill link that one is a sec!




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/31 00:07:23


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




List wise I’d say go with the first list, you’re already gun heavy with it and a gun line like that will be fearsome to face. The second list might be overkill against armour but against horde armies the first list will probably fair better. So in all honesty your lists are sound either way, but it depends on what you come across more often... Armour or horde.

Now in regards to the Spacemarines buffs... the only thing on there I agree with is the obsec point. Everything else doesn’t really need the tweaking. Leave chainswords alone. Armies like orks and nids already suffer enough from shooting without basic army units turning large numbers to mush in close combat too. If you’re getting charged by them, then you’ve just got unlucky or not target prioritised correctly.
No vehicle should be able to shoot in combat... imagine being that surrounded by enemies, you’re not going to be worried about the guys in the distance, you’re going to be worrying about the guys shoving grenades up the exhaust or in the barrels of the cannon. Another reason not to shoot. Drive around and squish them with luck. Further more that would again put armies like tyranids at a disadvantage. Demolisher cannons are fine, they get boosted damage to larger units anyway. Whirlwinds don’t need to get more power they are good, add more shots and you are just asking for spam. Repulsive is roughly about right points wise, consider the amount of shots it can put out, the fact that charges are more difficult against it, and it’s ability to reduce enemy accuracy is actually quite potent. Rush across the battlefield, using auto launchers all the way... dump your pay load of troops and blast away. Most stuff will shrink in front of it. The land raiders durability is its main selling point... it doesn’t need to get better or cheaper, it just needs a little more variety (looking at you Chaos)
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



The Gates of Hell

JbR of Endless Spire wrote:
List wise I’d say go with the first list, you’re already gun heavy with it and a gun line like that will be fearsome to face. The second list might be overkill against armour but against horde armies the first list will probably fair better. So in all honesty your lists are sound either way, but it depends on what you come across more often... Armour or horde.


Thanks, btw after re-reading my original post it sounded like I was saying that Codex: Space Marines was bad. While playing the most competitive/OP variant of them. I sounded pretty ungrateful, while people are right about Guili being Op lol
The reason I wrote this is my group is really competitive. And me as a super competitive person loves it. But recently Alatioc is some 7th ed unbeatable Cheese with -2 Flyers and Unhitable Characters with -4 on Bikes. With wave serpents with -1. It was a nightmare, I also witness friends with some strong armies die in a ball of flame, Astra Militarum missing every shot or unable to fire at all with most of his army.
The armies that have been strong/comparable are Astra Militarum (they are balanced really well right now), Tyranids (Jormagandur has some cheesy gimmicks that make them hard to deal with and strong psychic powers. Genestealers are great) and of course Eldar are great but Aliatoic need a nerf. I play Roboute, and I think that it's OP? It must be bad lol . When Orks get their codex, they will be great. Looking forward to more competitive wars with them in the future.

About the buffs, Repuslors are garbage dude, and space marine vehicles should be better and costed appropriately to match the fluff, because right now Vindicators are unusable, and Whirlwinds kill like 3 guardsmen a turn lol. Chain swords should really be -1AP but the other stuff I can see your point.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 04:28:56


Raven Guard XIX
Borne from the Shadows


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Both your lists are pretty good but you are better off just ignoring command points and bringing the stuff that actually hurts. Foget the batallions.

Guilli gives you 3 CP already so with a spearhead you are sitting at 7. Theres literally not a single strategem worth using other than the predator one so 7 will do fine.

The basically philosophy for making a competitive space marine army is - how do I remove as much power armor from my list as possible?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 22:26:16


What is your life?
My honour is my life.
What is your fate?
My duty is my fate.
What is your fear?
My fear is to fail.
What is your reward?
My salvation is my reward.
What is your craft?
My craft is death.
 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



The Gates of Hell

 Xenomancers wrote:
Both your lists are pretty good but you are better off just ignoring command points and bringing the stuff that actually hurts. Foget the batallions.

The basically philosophy for making a competitive space marine army is - how do I remove as much power armor from my list as possible?


That is very true lol, Power Armored models suck this ed. Hey need a buff, but I would prefer not taking 3 squads of 10x Hellblasters or bringing a ton of predators, or bringing Guard as that is the best way to play Imperium.

Raven Guard XIX
Borne from the Shadows


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




JbR of Endless Spire wrote:
.
If you’re getting charged by them, then you’ve just got unlucky or not target prioritised correctly.
No vehicle should be able to shoot in combat... imagine being that surrounded by enemies, you’re not going to be worried about the guys in the distance, you’re going to be worrying about the guys shoving grenades up the exhaust or in the barrels of the cannon. Another reason not to shoot. Drive around and squish them with luck. Further more that would again put armies like tyranids at a disadvantage. Demolisher cannons are fine, they get boosted damage to larger units anyway. Whirlwinds don’t need to get more power they are good, add more shots and you are just asking for spam. Repulsive is roughly about right points wise, consider the amount of shots it can put out, the fact that charges are more difficult against it, and it’s ability to reduce enemy accuracy is actually quite potent. Rush across the battlefield, using auto launchers all the way... dump your pay load of troops and blast away. Most stuff will shrink in front of it. The land raiders durability is its main selling point... it doesn’t need to get better or cheaper, it just needs a little more variety (looking at you Chaos)


First off, every vehicle should still be able to shoot in melee, just not at the guys in melee with them. Land Raiders are silly that way. How many times have you seen one of those 340pt beasts simply get tied up by a few measly infantry and effectively taken out of the game? That to me is the big selling point on Repulsors, since they are FLY they can back up and shoot still. Frankly not sure why you'd ever take a Land Raider. Redeemers crack me up the most, clearly an anti-infantry machine, for one round anyways until they close with it and then tie it up with grunts, lol. Lemme slap 2x Flamestorms on a Repulsor and now we are talking. And why are you so into auto launchers? Who sinks that many points into a gun boat only to have it not fire on the way in? Get a Rhino or hell even a Drop pod and you'll be better off. Besides, the only units it carries are Primaris, and those aren't the guys we need to rush up into battle. You need that for specialty troops, the Melta squad, or Assault Termies, and it can't carry them, or any Character for that matter.

And the reason people hardly ever take Demolishers and Whirlwinds is because their shots are so friggin random. You're paying good points for a nice gun, there should be a set number of shots instead. Not sure if the WW should be 6/12, but the Assault on the Demolisher is an excellent idea. Either way now they are super expensive for what you get and extremely situational. Nice to have one just to rattle your opponent as it hits just about anywhere on the board from behind cover, but never once seen or heard of them being decisive in a battle. And Land Raiders aren't that durable. They are the MOST durable in the space marine armory, but that doesn't mean they don't almost always get popped in round 1, round 2 at the latest of your opponent decides he'd rather do that than tie it up with some small cheap and maybe fast unit.

Honestly, the 2 things to me that are no brainers, the things that everyone else seems to get and Marines(and Chaos) don't, is:

1) their Chapter Trait only applies to infantry, dreads and bikers when everyone else's (cept Chaos), applies to their vehicles as well
2) Their transports are the only ones that have like 3 different types of compatibility that don't overlap. Every Marine transport should be able to carry every marine unit, just takes up more space, like everyone else.

The other stuff is fuzzy, trying to gauge points for effectiveness is about as much art as science, but those 2 things there just make we wonder wtf?
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Gwarok wrote:
JbR of Endless Spire wrote:
.
If you’re getting charged by them, then you’ve just got unlucky or not target prioritised correctly.
No vehicle should be able to shoot in combat... imagine being that surrounded by enemies, you’re not going to be worried about the guys in the distance, you’re going to be worrying about the guys shoving grenades up the exhaust or in the barrels of the cannon. Another reason not to shoot. Drive around and squish them with luck. Further more that would again put armies like tyranids at a disadvantage. Demolisher cannons are fine, they get boosted damage to larger units anyway. Whirlwinds don’t need to get more power they are good, add more shots and you are just asking for spam. Repulsive is roughly about right points wise, consider the amount of shots it can put out, the fact that charges are more difficult against it, and it’s ability to reduce enemy accuracy is actually quite potent. Rush across the battlefield, using auto launchers all the way... dump your pay load of troops and blast away. Most stuff will shrink in front of it. The land raiders durability is its main selling point... it doesn’t need to get better or cheaper, it just needs a little more variety (looking at you Chaos)


First off, every vehicle should still be able to shoot in melee, just not at the guys in melee with them. Land Raiders are silly that way. How many times have you seen one of those 340pt beasts simply get tied up by a few measly infantry and effectively taken out of the game? That to me is the big selling point on Repulsors, since they are FLY they can back up and shoot still. Frankly not sure why you'd ever take a Land Raider. Redeemers crack me up the most, clearly an anti-infantry machine, for one round anyways until they close with it and then tie it up with grunts, lol. Lemme slap 2x Flamestorms on a Repulsor and now we are talking. And why are you so into auto launchers? Who sinks that many points into a gun boat only to have it not fire on the way in? Get a Rhino or hell even a Drop pod and you'll be better off. Besides, the only units it carries are Primaris, and those aren't the guys we need to rush up into battle. You need that for specialty troops, the Melta squad, or Assault Termies, and it can't carry them, or any Character for that matter.

And the reason people hardly ever take Demolishers and Whirlwinds is because their shots are so friggin random. You're paying good points for a nice gun, there should be a set number of shots instead. Not sure if the WW should be 6/12, but the Assault on the Demolisher is an excellent idea. Either way now they are super expensive for what you get and extremely situational. Nice to have one just to rattle your opponent as it hits just about anywhere on the board from behind cover, but never once seen or heard of them being decisive in a battle. And Land Raiders aren't that durable. They are the MOST durable in the space marine armory, but that doesn't mean they don't almost always get popped in round 1, round 2 at the latest of your opponent decides he'd rather do that than tie it up with some small cheap and maybe fast unit.

Honestly, the 2 things to me that are no brainers, the things that everyone else seems to get and Marines(and Chaos) don't, is:

1) their Chapter Trait only applies to infantry, dreads and bikers when everyone else's (cept Chaos), applies to their vehicles as well
2) Their transports are the only ones that have like 3 different types of compatibility that don't overlap. Every Marine transport should be able to carry every marine unit, just takes up more space, like everyone else.

The other stuff is fuzzy, trying to gauge points for effectiveness is about as much art as science, but those 2 things there just make we wonder wtf?

Yeah - capter tactics should totally apply to everything - or like AM have with each trait having specific vehicle and infantry traits. Also - vehicle compatibility is a no brainier. Probably about a 50 point drop for all land raider types. Or they should come stock with a 4++ save.

What is your life?
My honour is my life.
What is your fate?
My duty is my fate.
What is your fear?
My fear is to fail.
What is your reward?
My salvation is my reward.
What is your craft?
My craft is death.
 
   
 
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