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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm at a weird cross roads. I'm at this point putting anything 40K-like on 25mm bases and anything 32+mm on 30mm Dark Age bases. Despite having bought Infinity products since it first came out, I feel it's highly unlikely that I'll ever play a competitive game of Infinity. The minis are now coming out in a scale comparable to Knight Models figures and if I was being totally reasonable I'd probably say that even 30mm DA bases are a bit small for the footprint of this models.

I'm tempted to (re)base all my new CADInfinity models on 30mm bases. In the event that I wanted to play Infinity are there any problems with putting the infantry figures (uniformly) on larger bases...if I never intend to play in an ITS tournament?
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






Do you intend on playing pickup games or do you exclusively play in a group where you all know each other?

If you play in a group, go for it. If you intend on playing pickup games, I wouldn't. Since N3 moved to the silhouette system, each silhouette is tied to a base size. Changing the base size means it's not possible for the silhouette system to work, since if the base is bigger, it can be anywhere on the base that it fits, and if it's smaller, it can overhang without the opponent knowing.

Additionally, while you might not intend on playing ITS, your opponent might, and might be preparing for an event in a pickup game. So be prepared for pick up game opponents to flat out decline games. If you're not up front about it and don't tell them until the game is in play, be prepared for some... heated discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 01:02:58


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I will never play a game with anyone I don't already know, so not worried about pick-up games.

The silhouette thing is more what I'm wondering about. Is that extra 5mm going to break the game if everything is similarly based, or is it just going to be a slightly bigger silhouette assuming uniform basing?
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






Potentially yes. Because the base is bigger than the silhouette, a base could be overhanging enough that a model will have LOS to it, but you could float the silhouette back enough that it's not seen. Considering how this game uses LOS and cover, I could see this becoming a common issue.

However, if you only ever play games with friends, those are the people to be asking, as they are the people who will be having any issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 00:17:11


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





SoCal

I'd advise against it in general. Just because you models take up a set volume.

You ask if 5mm is going to make a big difference in the game, so ask if 5mm is really making that big a difference to your enjoyment of the miniature?

Maybe get some higher quality 25mm bases if you really want to.

   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Silhouettes mean that stuff doesn't matter. Base 'em on whatever you want!
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Kanluwen wrote:
Silhouettes mean that stuff doesn't matter. Base 'em on whatever you want!


They absolutely matter. Silhouettes have a corresponding base size. If you change the base size, you change where the silhouette is in relation to the base. A bigger base means a silhouette might not be in LOS, a smaller base means a silhouette might be in LOS and you don't know.

Silhouettes remove the ambiguity of dynamically posed models or taller/shorter models, but they absolutely need to be the correct base size for the system to work.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 00:47:43


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 -Loki- wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Silhouettes mean that stuff doesn't matter. Base 'em on whatever you want!


They absolutely matter. Silhouettes have a corresponding base size. If you change the base size, you change where the silhouette is in relation to the base. A bigger base means a silhouette might not be in LOS, a smaller base means a silhouette might be in LOS and you don't know.

Silhouettes remove the ambiguity of dynamically posed models or taller/shorter models, but they absolutely need to be the correct base size for the system to work.

A model has a silhouette size as part of its profile.

You can put a silhouette on the appropriately sized base and use it for resolving differences. That was the whole schtick they gave us for silhouettes, remember?
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Kanluwen wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
Silhouettes mean that stuff doesn't matter. Base 'em on whatever you want!


They absolutely matter. Silhouettes have a corresponding base size. If you change the base size, you change where the silhouette is in relation to the base. A bigger base means a silhouette might not be in LOS, a smaller base means a silhouette might be in LOS and you don't know.

Silhouettes remove the ambiguity of dynamically posed models or taller/shorter models, but they absolutely need to be the correct base size for the system to work.

A model has a silhouette size as part of its profile.

You can put a silhouette on the appropriately sized base and use it for resolving differences. That was the whole schtick they gave us for silhouettes, remember?


No it's not.

Silhouettes are to resolve issues like a model crouching having an advantage over the same model standing. The silhouette means it takes up the same volume, and that volume is a certain height and a certain width, and that width matches a base.

If you put an S2 model, which the silhouette is 25mm wide, on a 35mm base, you've got 5mm overhang around the silhouette. So where is that overhang going to be? 5mm each side? 10mm to the left/right/front/back? Is it going to wonder each turn, one turn being 10mm back so it can't be seen at the edge of a building, the next in the middle so it gets cover but has LOS? What if it's S4, so 40mm, on a 25mm base? The model might fit, but you've got 15mm where the silhouette overhangs the base itself. Same problem, where is the overhang in relation to the base?

Base size is crucial for a silhouette system to work. Once you change the base size, it becomes a headache trying to figure out where the silhouette is in relation to the base.

If there's any doubt, refer to page 17 of the N3 rulebook.

In game terms all troops occupy an unvarying volume on the tabletop. This volume is cylinder-shaped, with its width determined by the base size and its height by the type of troop.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 01:14:07


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

The silhouette system, headache that it is, has base size as part of it. If you know something has S2 then you know it should be on a 25mm base.

But what if, like the Umbra Samaritan model, it's a godawful topheavy model that won't stay put on a 25mm base and someone puts it on a 40mm?
Then you know it's S2 with a 40mm base instead of the 25mm and can take the appropriate steps for ranges and the like.

Honestly, that's my feelings on the matter. Most people should be grown-up enough to know when it is or isn't appropriate to make an issue of this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 01:21:00


 
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Kanluwen wrote:
You're really kinda making my point for me I feel.

The silhouette system, headache that it is, has base size as part of it. If you know something has S2 then you know it should be on a 25mm base.

But what if, like the Umbra Samaritan model, it's a godawful topheavy model that won't stay put on a 25mm base and someone puts it on a 40mm?
Then you know it's S2 with a 40mm base instead of the 25mm and can take the appropriate steps for ranges and the like.


How do you know what size the base is meant to be if you change the base of the model is on? There's no base size listed on a model, so you only have the silhouette to go by.

Page 17 explicitly states the silhouette is as wide as the models base and as tall as the silhouette. That's why the silhouettes you can print are a certain size, because it's assumed you're basing the models on the correct sized base.

Again

In game terms all troops occupy an unvarying volume on the tabletop. This volume is cylinder-shaped, with its width determined by the base size and its height by the type of troop.


If you change the base size, by the rules as written, you're changing the silhouette.

You're wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 01:23:21


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 -Loki- wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
You're really kinda making my point for me I feel.

The silhouette system, headache that it is, has base size as part of it. If you know something has S2 then you know it should be on a 25mm base.

But what if, like the Umbra Samaritan model, it's a godawful topheavy model that won't stay put on a 25mm base and someone puts it on a 40mm?
Then you know it's S2 with a 40mm base instead of the 25mm and can take the appropriate steps for ranges and the like.


How do you know what size the base is meant to be if you change the base of the model is on? There's no base size listed on a model, so you only have the silhouette to go by.

Page 17 explicitly states the silhouette is as wide as the models base and as tall as the silhouette. That's why the silhouettes you can print are a certain size, because it's assumed you're basing the models on the correct sized base.

Because you can handily enough, look it up?

Again

In game terms all troops occupy an unvarying volume on the tabletop. This volume is cylinder-shaped, with its width determined by the base size and its height by the type of troop.


If you change the base size, by the rules as written, you're changing the silhouette.

You're wrong.


Want to try again?

If I can pull this up that easily, there's no excuse.
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






That's a photo shopped imaged used as a rough example? It didn't disprove anything either.

The S1 and S2 print out templates are 25mm wide. They're showing 2 models that come with 25mm bases. The S3, S5 and S6 templates are 40mm wide. They show 3 models that come with 40mm bases. The S4 and S7 templates are 55mm wide, and they're showing 2 models that come with 55mm bases.

Stop being bad at this.

The rules plainly say the silhouette is as wide as the base of the model. The print out templates match the width of the bases the models come with. Stop being obtuse.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 01:30:39


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 -Loki- wrote:
That's a photo shopped imaged used as a rough example? It didn't disprove anything either.

The S1 and S2 print out templates are 25mm wide. They're showing 2 models that come with 25mm bases. The S3, S5 and S6 templates are 40mm wide. They show 3 models that come with 40mm bases. The S4 and S7 templates are 55mm wide, and they're showing 2 models that come with 55mm bases.

Stop being bad at this.

It's a "photoshopped image used as a rough example" in the Infinity N3 rulebook on the same page you're telling me to refer to. It shows you that S2 models and S1 models are on 25mm bases, S3, S5, and S6 models are on 40mm bases, and S4 and S7 models are on 55mm bases.

What's the problem again?
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






 Kanluwen wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
That's a photo shopped imaged used as a rough example? It didn't disprove anything either.

The S1 and S2 print out templates are 25mm wide. They're showing 2 models that come with 25mm bases. The S3, S5 and S6 templates are 40mm wide. They show 3 models that come with 40mm bases. The S4 and S7 templates are 55mm wide, and they're showing 2 models that come with 55mm bases.

Stop being bad at this.

It's a "photoshopped image used as a rough example" in the Infinity N3 rulebook on the same page you're telling me to refer to. It shows you that S2 models and S1 models are on 25mm bases, S3, S5, and S6 models are on 40mm bases, and S4 and S7 models are on 55mm bases.

What's the problem again?


The problem is that you just said you can base them on anything you want. The text on that same page and your example directly contradicts this.

This is why I put you on ignore. You're going back there.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

Infinity The Game: N3 Rulebook. Page 17 wrote:
In game terms, all troops occupy an unvarying volume on the table. This volume is cylinder-shaped, with its width determined by the base size and its height by the type of troop.

Silhouette Templates are a game aid designed to help players determine the in-game volume and height of a troop.

If doubts about the volume of a troop arise during a game, players can use the Silhouette Templates to decide exactly what cylinder-shaped space it takes up on the game table.


You focused upon the "base size" while ignoring that the base size and height is determined by the type of troop.
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

Try a 25mm base that lacks the slanted sizes. Such a base is actually 25mm diameter at the top, rather than 23.5mm. It might make enough of a difference for you.

FWIW, I dislike over-large bases. They steal focus from the mini.

Measurements. Since things are base to base measurements, if your bases are not the official size, in a game where distances really do matter, using over-szed bases is a bit shady, even in casual play.

 
   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





Measurements. Since things are base to base measurements, if your bases are not the official size, in a game where distances really do matter, using over-szed bases is a bit shady, even in casual play.


I didn't rebase my Dragoe or my REM that came with base extensions. My friend couldn't care less and I don't intend to play ITS scene to find out how those people would react.

Consult with your friends, my own experience tell me that different bases didn't result in any negative feelings. Some of the cut out paper tokens that are used for camouflage or objectives felt more off to be honest. Would still be sad, if after all you did couldn't get a game.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/03 18:52:46


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





It's weird that CB changed the TAG base from 40mm to 55mm yet likes to stick 35mm infantry on 25mm bases. The base should be as wide as the model is tall--for reasons.

Thank you Kanluwen for pointing out that the silhouettes won't matter if all the figs are uniformly based.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Belgium

What I had the most trouble with were indeed the miniatures with extensions - some drones or the infamous japanese TAG. Not only it's a bother to glue, I always hated miniatures that can't stand on a standard base.

I'm with Kanluwen on this matter.

Also, IMHO, Infinity standard infantry miniatures look way more awesome on 30/32 mm bases. Helps a lot for stability and some dynamic poses.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/06 05:48:20


Cuteness for the Cute Goddess! 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

The base size change for TAGs was done to eliminate the base extensions. Some of those, like on Scarface, were really terrible. It was also meant to give the sculptors more room to indulge their creativity.

Ultimately, they are your minis, so do as you see best.

 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Red Harvest wrote:
The base size change for TAGs was done to eliminate the base extensions. Some of those, like on Scarface, were really terrible.

Truthfully, remotes were the big potential offenders for those stupid base extensions.

It was also meant to give the sculptors more room to indulge their creativity.

Yeah, all of those "standing at attention with one ragefist and gun held up in the air" models we get now really stretch the bounds of creativity!
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

Yeah, four little extensions... fragile extensions. Well, the new bases also have more room for tactical rubble, which seems to be proliferationg.

 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Yeah, four little extensions... fragile extensions. Well, the new bases also have more room for tactical rubble, which seems to be proliferationg.

Truthfully, with the prices they charge us?

They could at least make a flipping effort to include a second set of legs and arms for models that they load up with tactical rubble.

Also I was pretty disappointed by the fact that my Szalamandra--which is basically a single cast body--didn't properly fit onto the base the way it should have. It had a bit of a lean to it, so I had to build a rock or something for it to be Captain Morganing on.
   
Made in si
Skillful Swordmaster





You're soon going to have base extensions for those on new and larger bases too. More tactical junk that artificially increases the space (rock that allows the foot to be just slightly over the edge of the base) could work as well.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/07 07:09:40


 
   
Made in us
Combat Jumping Ragik






Beyond the Beltway

And therein lies a peeve of mine, feet hanging over the edge of the base, where they will get dinged and scratched. Having a base which is 25mm at the top, instead of 23.5mm, helps, however, I think if CB went to such bases, we would start to see "Stance Creep". Considering that a 25mm base represents a circle nearly slightly over 1.2m diameter, how wide of a stance... yeah. Chairman Aeon's desire to use a larger 30mm base seems quite sensible and pragmatic. The Hsien HMG (in the Yu Jing starter) ought to have a 40mm base, TBH. Look how much the mini overhangs the 25mm base. The 25mm base is on a 40mm base for comparison

That sword and coat and the back fins are going to be to transport or play.


 
   
 
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