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2018/01/04 01:31:32
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior
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Below is my 8th edition experience - is yours the same? Is it different?
Is 8th living up to your expectations and are you enjoying it?
It’s been a few months since I’ve played; I’m just no longer feeling it. It started so well; the release of the new edition came with promises of balance, clarity and play-tested rules. Initially it looked like those objectives would be met. The morale mechanic looked simple and effective, and the early games my group played indicated that it was a pretty tight rule set. The Indicies were a little bland, but they appeared to be well balanced.
The first cracks appeared when we realised that IG had a couple of mechanisms to materially ignore the morale rules, and then with the release of the Space Marine codex the creep began. Whereas previously my marines had been evenly matched, now they had new Chapter Tactics at no additional cost (I was secretly hoping for +1ppm for any infantry model taking chapter tactics). There was room to recover; the promised points reviews would pick that up, right?
Then the AM codex, and the creep train had left the station. There was no going back - subsequent codicies have had a power level also surpassing their index equivalents; that’s an incontestable fact.
But the situation was still recoverable. I could still play small games where we balance things ourselves, or interesting scenarios that don’t beg the question “who rolls more dice?”. With the release of Necromunda it became clear that the strategy was to move 40k into the larger format and to focus the small-scale conflicts on Necromunda. Alas, I can see the future - the small-format 40k games will go the way of the dodo. A number of the players at my LGS have taken up Necromunda and/or Shadespire, and/or alternatives, thus reducing the pool of people against whom I can play.
And so I’m left with little motivation to continue with 40k.
Tell me your experiences, Dakka.
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2018/01/04 01:42:27
Subject: Re:6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Dropped it like an ugly baby shortly after playing about 11 games of it, learned to never again preorder anything GW that is not LOTR. its not overly misrable at 50PL give or take, but otherwise I am convinced it is the worst miniature game ever made by anybody, including holistic's carnage.
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2018/01/04 01:44:56
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Ute nation
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Overall I like the changes, the rules are a breath of fresh air compared to 7th. Not that 7th ed set a high bar for palatability and balance. My biggest gripe is that the necron changes didn't seem particularly well thought out, but I know I'll get mine, and probably soon, but until then I've been having fun with chaos and dark angels.
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Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon. |
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2018/01/04 02:03:39
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Basically the same; it's easier to play, but I'm still finding the endless push for bigger and bigger models is making the unit type balance tremendously skewey (the way damage is written certain types of units are always going to be just better), certain models (Magnus, Guilliman, whatnot) have a disproportionate amount of impact on the game to the point that even semi-competitive lists have to be written around what you're going to do if you run into one of them, and the relationship between ranges, movement, and melee/ranged damage output still rewards people for nailing their feet to the floor and nuking everything off the table with giant guns.
It's better than the horrorshow that was 6th/7th, for sure, but the underlying problems inherent in how GW thinks about the game (writing lynchpin special characters that make armies either function or not function, pushing the size of models/guns larger, and trying to address deep-seated problems with minimally invasive patches that don't actually address the problem) are still there and aren't getting any better.
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2018/01/04 02:03:56
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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Theres no power creep between Indexs and Codexs. They are different things and play in different leagues.
Now, theres problems with balance both between Indexs and Codexs separately as two cathegorys. But it hasn't been a "power creep"" in 8th edition so far.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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2018/01/04 02:05:19
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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I've played 40K since 2nd edition, and I have to say overall 8th is the best edition thus far. It is not perfect, but the rules are clear and mostly logical and amount of annoying micromanaging has been decreased drastically. My biggest gripe are the terrain rules, where I think they went a tad overboard with the simplification (Intervening terrain should provide cover.)
That being said, I'm more an modeller than a gamer, and I play only maybe once a month, so I haven't played that many games, so it is perfectly possible I will still find some things that start to annoy me.
And yes, codex armies generally tend to be a bit more powerful than index ones, even with Chapter Approved fixes, but if they keep releasing the codices at this pace, that problem is soon resolved.
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2018/01/04 02:14:56
Subject: Re:6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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8th is vastly superior to 7th. 7th edition was an unsalvageable mess of a horrifically broken and overcomplicated game that toppled 40k from its place as #1 tabletop game for a literal generation and saw GW reach its lowest revenue point since the 90's.
8th is without a doubt better than 7E.
That said, 8th has its own host set of issues, and is nowhere near perfect. The game has lots of problems, but we're back in the realm of 4E/5E scale issues, rather than the complete failure that 6E-7E was. The game is playable. It is, as has been noted, an ugly baby, but it's a definite improvement on 7E.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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2018/01/04 02:15:11
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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Galas wrote:Theres no power creep between Indexs and Codexs. They are different things and play in different leagues.
Now, theres problems with balance both between Indexs and Codexs separately as two cathegorys. But it hasn't been a "power creep"" in 8th edition so far.
I disagree, going from codex space marines which limits what gets chapter tactics, to stuff like elder which is basicly "EVERYTHING GETS IT" I'd argue the power creep is real
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2018/01/04 02:30:12
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
Vigo. Spain.
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BrianDavion wrote: Galas wrote:Theres no power creep between Indexs and Codexs. They are different things and play in different leagues.
Now, theres problems with balance both between Indexs and Codexs separately as two cathegorys. But it hasn't been a "power creep"" in 8th edition so far.
I disagree, going from codex space marines which limits what gets chapter tactics, to stuff like elder which is basicly "EVERYTHING GETS IT" I'd argue the power creep is real
Then why Dark Angels and Blood Angels that have come after Craftworld Codex isn't more powerfull than Eldar? People need to learn that GW CAN'T do powercreep even if they tried.
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Crimson Devil wrote:
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote:Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
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2018/01/04 02:30:15
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Repentia Mistress
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Personally im loving it. My main complaint is that im too busy to get more games in. I like how much easier it is. It was hard at first because 7th was so complicated and 8th so simplified , it was hard to stop overthinking possible rules.
My army has never been in a better place and im hoping 8th stays around for a long time.
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2018/01/04 02:57:38
Subject: Re:6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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7th was really bad. 8th is also bad, but better.
I hate how overly simplified it is.
There are some things that it got right, but there are an equal amount of things that they got wrong, but 40K has always been a bad game so nothing new there.
I've pretty much stopped caring after the destroyed Fantasy and brought that abomination AoS to life. Now 40K is just AoS 2.0.
GW still can't figure out how to write rules properly.
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Square Bases for Life!
AoS is pure garbage
Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi |
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2018/01/04 03:03:55
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Worthiest of Warlock Engineers
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I stopped playing. The rules are daft and oversimplified whilst still managing to be bloated, and unless I invest in blobguard and artillery I might as well not turn up.
It sucks to be a fluff player :/
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Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
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2018/01/04 03:48:33
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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The usual lousy balance as expected from GW turned up to notch, rules as hollow as initially seen with no saving grace. Thank god HH stays at the 7th deluxe style it was with some new improvements too. Still not perfect but nothing ever is and at least they have less things to fix than they would need if it had switched editions. Less need to rewrite everything from scratch.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 03:49:44
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2018/01/04 04:14:06
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer
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I've had only a couple games of it, but prefer it to prior editions. It has its issues, though.
My son and I have only been playing with the Indexes (I have no desire to buy another round after having bought the 5E and 6E/7E codexes in the past), and only 1,000 points games - the idea was to ramp up to 2,000 but after our experiences I don't expect to be be playing more than 1,250 at most.
Certainly won't be migrating to 9E when it comes out. Like their models, but I feel I can write better rules than they can.
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It never ends well |
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2018/01/04 04:17:06
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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8th edition is my favourite since 3rd. It's simpler to teach and pick up, and there's less worrying about minutia, and fewer rules disputes. Things are more clear cut. There's strong stuff, but the game is fun with whatever you play. Everything sharing the same stats is great. The big increase in wounds is fantastic, as it allows multi-damage weapons, and dealing multiple damage or getting lots of shots is a real decision point - you can take lots of shots like before to help kill hordes, but the big anti-tank guns are still the best ways to take out big stuff. I like where characters are now, as you can't use characters to hide other characters, but it's really hard to pick out characters. I like how almost all HQ's Characters and most Elite Characters buff folks around them. I love stratagems as a way to boost units with fluffy abilities. I also think that it's the most balanced game thus far, with Infantry having their day in the sun by being important in even tourney lists, and there being some good counters to stuff.
That said, it will always need some work. Chapter Tactics and "free rules" is unfortunate in that some of them are just so ridiculously better than others. I'd rather Chapter Tactics and similar come through faction-specific stratagems rather than army-wide rules. I also would rather see minimum unit sizes increase, or for Leadership scores to decrease, so that Leadership matters - because if feels like we're pretty close to it not mattering again. Finally, I'd like to see a rule that the player with the first turn have some kind of drawback compared to the player going second; like all their attacks are at -1 to hit, or they can't bring in reserves turn 1. Something that helps mitigate first movers advantage.
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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2018/01/04 04:29:55
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Sagitarius with a Big F'in Gun
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I played 3rd edition years ago and it was fun, but was my first tabletop war game. I eventually quit due to the expense, played a few other games and got back in recently.
The game is vastly simplified since 3rd or compared to almost any other wargame. Maybe over-simplified. Not sure yet. I feel the over-simplification really removes any nuanced tactics and just makes it into a rock-paper-scissors + exploiting broken rules game. I've only been collecting 2-3 months, and have only gotten 2 games in. I feel the games may get boring quickly.
40k still has the same starting problems as it did in 3rd. You need to drop several 100 dollars just to start. That was a big reason I quit. Some games, you can spend $50-$100 dollars and start playing. However, finding players for smaller games is always the biggest problem.
The biggest disappointment I had with 3rd is the removal of facings on vehicles, and the super-simplified rules for giant units like Knights. Considering how much more the large units cost point-wise, I figured they'd keep more complex rules. ie: it takes the same amount of time to manage/run 3 knights as it does 8 infantry squads.(or whatever number) I think something like battle-tech lite would have made Knights and Titans interesting - but no, they're just big infantry units. Just like tanks. And planes. And Titans.
I'm also quite surprised that they *still* haven't figured out how to write cohesive rules. Use a standard language format. ie: "You may exchange any/all/one units WeaponA for a WeaponB". That exact phrase should be used every time with a standard language choice that means a specific thing. I feel their lack of understanding of how to write cohesive rules is what pushed them to simplify the game so much. Regardless, there are still arguments even when the core rules are what - 3 pages?
My hope is that they come out with some form of advanced rules. Maybe something that includes bringing back facings for vehicles and walkers. Some sort of rules that can be discarded for new players, but add depth to games for more experienced players who want to add an more realistic tactics like flanking, location damage, disabled weapons, etc.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/01/04 04:47:00
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2018/01/04 05:01:10
Subject: Re:6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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In fairness simplication is simply the way things are going these days. Modern war games are simplier and more "Stream lined" then ones 10-20 years ago.
It's a long running trend. Back when I played battletech, about 15 years ago you'd see people commenting that battletech needed to stream line as it was slow and clunky, and noting 40k as an example of a more streamlined system. so yeah it's just a long running trend.
being simple to pick up and learn is IMHO important for 40k especially as IMHO it's the "D&D of wargaming"
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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2018/01/04 06:42:53
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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I still enjoy it. It has more tactics than 7th, balance is much better and I really like Stratagems. Morale hardly ever has an impact on the game, just like in 7th, but at least it doesn't take time. Psychic phase, CC, wound allocation, vehicle rules, AP System, movement, FAQs, narrative scenarios are all vast improvements to 7th Edition. That being said you should still take 40K for what it is: it's not a very deep game like Lotr, but rather a fun experience. Drink a beer while watching tanks explode and roll on random tables for the scenario rules. 40K is at it's best when played for fluff and not for competition. And it does that better than 7th due to less rules debates.
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2018/01/04 06:55:38
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
Tampa, Florida
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I like it, but I don't love it. I really liked early 7th before all the detachment shenanigans and codex creep screwed it up, I thought the rules were solid, the minis were awesome, and the game was fun. 8th is enjoyable, but 1st turn advantage is way too significant. The amount of firepower and speed in 8th has meant almost every game I've played was decided by turn 2-3 at the latest, and the side that went first has won the majority of battles. The reroll auras, combined with doubling or tripling the firepower on display really puts out a lot of hurt in the early turns, and rare is the army that can recover after losing a few hundred points in turn 1 before they even get a shot at moving or shooting back.
Most of my groups games have resulted in near tablings by turn 3. We've been putting out a lot more terrain, and that helps, but cover doesn't matter much in 8th so you need 100% LOS blocking terrain. That can be tricky to come by when a Land Raider can fire 4 Lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, and a multi melta out of the headlight...
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2018/01/04 08:19:28
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Well, the 8th ed comes with a simplified rule set. Too simplistic if you ask me.
Problems are cover, facing of vehicles for shooting, and withdrawal from close combat.
Its more like a board game now as maneuvering is less an issue.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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2018/01/04 08:20:27
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Battleship Captain
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This pretty much sums it up.
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2018/01/04 08:42:41
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Sneaky Lictor
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Wow Dakka is on a endless cycle of this topic huh, it always devolved into "I think 8th is better, 7th is garbage" and vice versa.
I play HH, I play 40k and enjoy both. I like I can turn off for a couple of hours when I play 40k / roll some dice while pushing some cool models about and I also like using the complexity of the HH rules to play a real tactful game all the while depicting my favourite hobby thing ever.
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A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
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2018/01/04 10:32:16
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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What we need to factor in is that with 40k, as with most hobbies, your personal interest will naturally wax and wane over time.
If you played loads in 7th, but are not feeling it now and just have a desire to play less games, this is likely to be the reason for some people. Not that 8th is garbage, but you're just a little burned out on the hobby. Maybe give it some distance for a few months, play something else or whatever, come back and see how it is then.
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2018/01/04 11:07:35
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Deadly Dark Eldar Warrior
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Stux wrote:What we need to factor in is that with 40k, as with most hobbies, your personal interest will naturally wax and wane over time.
You know, you’re right. Sometimes I can’t stop painting and sometimes I go for weeks or months without doing it. I’m sure it will come back to me.
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2018/01/04 11:10:17
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Sorcererbob wrote:Stux wrote:What we need to factor in is that with 40k, as with most hobbies, your personal interest will naturally wax and wane over time.
You know, you’re right. Sometimes I can’t stop painting and sometimes I go for weeks or months without doing it. I’m sure it will come back to me.
Yeah probably!
The real test will be when you've had a break and get an itch to play, come back and THEN hate it. Then you'll know!
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2018/01/04 11:24:45
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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I like it - it's probably the best 40K has been since Rogue Trader. Not perfect, but I don't expect perfection out of 40K. 90% of my games have been interesting, close affairs where the decisions made at the game table meaningfully changed the outcome. The opposite was true in 7th where 90% of my games were decided before the first model was deployed and the rest was just rolling out the dice. The decision to boost the profile of narrative gaming has been beneficial to me as well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 11:25:23
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2018/01/04 11:25:52
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I still happily play it at every occasion. I really like 8th and how they learned from AoS. That said, i'm also an AoS fan, so...
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2018/01/04 11:29:36
Subject: Re:6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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I admit I want to play the game alot more in 8th ed. than 7th, so I'm mostly happy with it.
My complaints:
7th was all about getting more free stuff than your opponent with detachments, like space marine transport, improved aspect warriors bs, better necron reanimation etc... and using that to overwhelm your opponent with snazzy rules.
8th is starting to move back in that direction with chapter tactics and the like (-1 to hit an army for free, really?) and strategem (units that can shoot or move twice for example, how does that not cost points?)
rerolls everywhere slows the game down
unimpressive cover rules,
unimpressive morale rules. I'd prefer if these could force an enemy to move or get pinned instead. The game should be about movement and placement, not about who has the most firepower all the time.
smite
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Brutal, but kunning! |
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2018/01/04 11:32:47
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Battleship Captain
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I think a lot of people are looking at 8th too much like its actually complete yet. A third of the factions have yet to get their real codex and even then the difference between the first books released which would have obviously been rushed and the more recent ones like Nids and Eldar that have had a bit of time put into them are miles apart.
8th won't REALLY be finished totally until the cycle of getting every faction up to date with stratagems and such is done later this year. At that point is when the devs can focus on tweaking balances properly in codexes. When Space Marines get a new codex then we'll really be in a position to judge because that will really be the first proper codex instead of just a placeholder.
Of course GW might just print the same codex again with the March/November FAQs and Chapter Approved edited in. Who knows?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 11:35:45
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2018/01/04 11:37:00
Subject: 6 months in; how are you finding 8th?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I love it. I don't play powerplayers so I have fun. I don't just take an op list and destroy people. It is VASTLY better to seventh, which was unbearable. Automatically Appended Next Post: That said, if you hate what is wrong with 40k, start AOS- because that system works and is fun
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/04 11:39:28
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