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I'm curious as to what people think the relative power of Ork Gargants are compared to their Imperial counterparts.

A few things:
By "power" I primarily mean their ability to kill things and their durability, and not secondary roles such as troop transport and morale booster.
I'm thinking more in terms of the background lore and stories rather than tabletop performance and points costs.
I recognize that Ork Gargants come in a bewildering variety of sizes and loadouts, but I'm thinking about an "average" example of the most common classifications.
My understanding is that the Stompa of modern 40k is more like the Supa Stompa of Epic in terms of size. Lets assume that I'm referring to the modern 40k Stompa.
Let's not get too far down the rabbit hole of "if Orks believe it is better then it is better". Let's also not buy too much into the Imperial propaganda about Orks, as some in-universe stuff isn't from a reliable or well-informed narrator.

I hope that when I say "half step" and "full step" I'm making sense. What I mean is if a Great Gargant is a half-step below it's Imperial equivalent it would be less powerful than a Warlord Titan but more powerful than a Reaver Titan. If it was a full step below a Warlord (which is generally considered to be its equivalent) it would be on equal footing with a Reaver.

I made this probably unnecessary image to help illustrate my point. Hopefully it doesn't just make things more confusing.

In theory I'd say they're equals, in practice the ramshackle nature of orks is going to make them less capable

They have to be way worse for the fluff to work; the imperium just puts too much time and effort into their titans, the Imperium would be overwhelmed far too quickly by them otherwise.

Based on the old Epic Space Marine game, they are different...

Ork Gargants had more power fields than Imperial Titans had void shields. The main difference was the power fields flickered, so shots could still slip through, and they could not be raised again in the course of a battle. Gargants also had no single spot that would result in destruction, meaning it had to be gradually worn down and blown to bits or until reduced to a combat ineffective towering inferno with raging internal fires. Even a head blown off result would not be fatal as the Gargants did not rely on Mind Impulse Units, though loss of the head and the leader did negatively affect performance. The old Mekboy Gargant had a special field that made it near impervious in the beginning, but it would have higher and higher risk of burning out and exploding if it was kept on, meaning eventually it became vulnerable the longer the battle lasted.

Imperial Titan void shields could be raised again. However they had weak spots with their reactor housing and head being potential places where a solid penetrating hit could result in a one hit kill.

This resulted in Orks having to reach a decisive conclusion quickly with their Gargants before cumulative battle damage took its toll on their effectiveness.

Ork Gargant weaponry for the most part was high volume of light or medium shots, with only a few targeted high power weapons and a few zany Orky Mek weapons. Imperial weapons had a lot of variety and spanned the high volume relatively low power shots like Vulcan Mega-bolters through to the high powered Plasma Cannon and Plasma Annihilator shots.

BrianDavion wrote:
In theory I'd say they're equals, in practice the ramshackle nature of orks is going to make them less capable

I think something along those lines.

A Gargant and a Reaver are "equivalent" roughly in terms of size, but in terms of power I think the Reaver is better. In the stories I read gargants are usually a threat to titans but more often than not the titan is able to destroy the gargant. It doesn't help that the Imperials generally refer to them as "gargants" or "scrap titans" which doesn't necessarily give a clear picture of the "class" of the gargant that was defeated. (It makes total sense for them to call them scrap titans or use the generic term gargant from a narrative perspective.) So in a book a Warlord or Emperor Titan might shoot down several gargants, but I'm not necessarily sure if they mean several regular Gargants (not surprising) or several Mega Gargants (somewhat surprising).

I tend to think that an "average" example of a Gargant is a half-step below its Imperial counterpart, but they can very widely. So a Stompa would usually be worse than a Warhound, and a Gargant would generally be better, but the dividing line between a particularly tricked-out Stompa and a particularly poorly built Gargant would be somewhere around the power level of a Warhound Titan.

I could maybe see them being a full-step worse on average.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
They have to be way worse for the fluff to work; the imperium just puts too much time and effort into their titans, the Imperium would be overwhelmed far too quickly by them otherwise.

I can see what you mean, but I think there might be several factors that help keep that from happening:
*Orks spend more time fighting eachother than anyone else. It's been written before that if all Orks were to unite they would overrun the galaxy, but the chances of that happening are theoretically close to zero (Ghazzy might throw a monkey-wrench into that).
*Orks can build Gargants faster than Imperials, but they often build them on-site which would give the Imperials a chance to destory them before they are complete.
*The biggest Ork Gargants also aren't that common. In Evil Sun Rising it was mentioned that Grukk's waaagh had two Mega Gargants as though this was a great achievement. This was a waaagh big enough to roll over a Space Marine homeworld and a hive world before giving a knight world backed up by a lot of Cadians and the Space Wolves a run for their money. (Grukk might have conquered a lot of other worlds too, those are just the ones I can remember.)

I'm not sure, but I also think that there might be a lot more smaller Gargants relative to the larger Gargants than there are smaller Titans relative to the larger Titans. Warhound Titans are scouts, and in my understanding an average Titan Maniple might have two of them and three Reaver and/or Warlord Titans. My understanding of the big Ork walkers is that there would be a lot more Stompas than Garagants, a lot more Gargants than Great Gargants, and a lot more Great Gargants than Mega Gargants. Does what I'm saying make sense?

Like all Ork vehicles, their effectiveness hinges on the beliefs of the Orks around them and whether Orks think the towering monstrosity that is an Emperor Titan is more or less Orky.

Generally one gargant is less powerful than imperial ones(the one with mega gargant and imperator had 2 mega gargants vs lone imperator though not sure was that balanced match up) so have generally numbers on their side. Makes sense overall. Orks are always been generally outnumbering enemy. Why not with titans?

On more practical difference imperial ones generally outgun ork ones, are less likely to be good in h2h, had recharging void shields but inshielded could be taken down even by single hit(in theory against warlord with void shields already downed single land raider could blow warlord down). Orks meanwhile were slightly less shooty, tended to always have cc weapon for titan busting cc ability and soaked up ungodly amount of firepower. When imperial titan was already down gargant would be generally just lumbering around in fires but still firing. Their power fields were one use only though.

And yeah stompa used to be just land raider on feet basically. Now it's more akin to supa-stompa or mek-gargant.

By the old Epic and Titan Legion rules, it was impossible to take down a Gargant or Mega-Gargant in a single hit even if its shields were down. However even an Imperator Titan, if its void shields were down, was susceptible to a one hit kill, even if it was unlikely.

Broadly speaking, Imperial Titans are, one-for-one, superior to their Orky equivalents, simply because their weapons are more reliable.

However, a Great Gargant equipped for Titan killing is not to be sniffed at. Mega Gatler for shield stripping, then let rip with a chainshot from the Belly Gun - even a Warlord is going down after that.

The Warlord, as noted, can be taken down with carefully concentrated firepower (shoot it in the head is a good tip). A Great Gargant can be a blazing inferno staggering about the field and still be duffin' up gitz.

Plus, any type of Gargant can be built by any Mekboy, so long as he can get his mitts on enough materials (Stompas are only built when they can't build anything bigger!)

Lots of good points here and its where the fluff is pretty similar to the rules.

Ork Gargants are not as efficient, usually slower and if they have shields they are usually burnt out when they fail. However they need to be worn down - and this gets more impressive as the scale of the Gargant goes up. Smaller stompas and the like can be one shoted by larger Titans.

Helsreach is not only a great read (and it really is) but has plenty of Titan vs Gargant combat culminating in Storm Herald (Imperator) vs Godbreaker (mega gargant - or maybe bigger) - earlier in the book, Storm Herald and her escorts (2 Warhounds and a Reaver) have killed something like 14 gargants - or Scrap Engines on their own in one engagement.

In the old epic box you got 1 Imperator class and 2 mega gargants in the box for roughly equivalent points. So one on one Titans do outclass Gargants but when do you ever juse see 1 Gargant

As others have said it seems like Imperial Titans tend to be a bit better (though I'd be inclined to say a half-step less rather than a full step). That said, there are almost certainly the occasion Mega-gargant that can take down an Imperator by itself; Orkish technology is notoriously variable in its efficiency.

I am reminded of a short passage about an Imperial Assassin (a Vindicare I think) sent to stop the construction of a gargant. He causes the fuel lines to detonate but considers his mission only a partial success as the gargant can be rebuilt. I imagine that the gargants in general are quicker to repair and send back into action that Imperial titans which isn't something which would come up in a one on one but if the Orks manage to recover their fallen gargants it could be quite important in a war.

I think any attempt to generalise about the capabilities of gargants is doomed to failure. Each one is a unique invention of the overseeing Mek, and could correspondingly be better or worse. There'll be plenty of variation. The categories are simply invented by the Imperium based roughly upon size and function, the Orks aren't sitting there constructing to a set standard.

To them it's just Da Gargant, Da slightly bigger Gargant, dat Gargant over dere wit da shooty lectric thing, dat gargant with tracks, dat Gargant made by dat zoggin Sharptoof wot stole my grabba, dose tree Gargants bolted together by dat nutta Snagface who wanted da triplegant, Big Mek Shieldy's Supa-Gorka-Plated-Mega-Krushagant, Dat Gargant whose 'ead pulls back to reveal da Supa-Mega-Lazer, etcetc.

the average ork titan is merely a imperial size guide to deploy titans to counter them. they may hare a few factors but after that every one is a unique enemy.

Imperial titans are different in distinct class and design patterns.
They are far more formalised. there load outs are similar and weapons are measurable as same class often has same armaments.

In terms of background lore, I honestly don't know.

In terms of tabletop, stompas are white-hot, raging dumpster fires, which is what I based my vote on.

Things like orkanauts are ok, and while they are vastly inferior to imperial knights, they are also considerably cheaper.

But if tabletop is any indicator, gargants are laughably inferior to imperial counterparts.

Even so, a gargant is my dream projekt, but they don't have any rules for one, and I don't really want to cut & paste from imperial titans, and don't really feel comfortable making up my own rules.

Sorry to resurrect this but with Adeptus Titanicus 2018 out, I am using this to build an Ork faction. More thoughts here is EXTREMELY helpful

Well stompa isn't supposed to be warhound equilavent. That would be more like the supa-stompa. Stompa is our knight equilavent.

And well...if orks are equal they would kick ass imperial titans as they are generally described as outnumbering imperial titans yet imperials wins so 1 on 1 clearly imperial win.

Also they are different in style. Ork ones have generally less firepower and their void shield equilavents are inferior but then again when they suffer hits they just keep going. Imperial titans can be _one shotted_ without even dedicated super titan killing weapons like volcano lances. The moment void shields go down any hit that can penetrate the armour can blow you up. Orks...They suffer fires, they slow down, they keep coming at you until they are blown apart to tiny pieces.

I don't think that comparison chart is accurate;

Mega-Gargants are more powerful than Warlords, but not equivalent to Imperators - the Titan Legions game gave you two Mega-Gargants to go up against the IMperator, after all.

Also, the Stompa is more equivalent to an Imperial Knight; the Gargant roughly equivalent to a Warhound would be the Mekboy gargant (one that the Meks cobbled together for themselves once they' finished the bigger Gargants for the Warlord and Warbosses).

Also, I can't remember if the chainshot from a Gargant's belly gun ignored Void shields or not. A solid hit from chain shot would bring a Warlord down in one hit, in the same way that Wedge brought down an AT-AT at Hoth. A prudent Princeps would always keep some low terrain - woods, low buildings, etc - between himself and a Gargant.

Isn't the Morkanaut/Gorkanaut supposed to be equivalent to knights?

I'd say it varies between Ork Titans. They're so ramshackle that one Mekboy could make an Ork Titan capable of fighting three Titans at once while another makes one that barely takes one down.

As with all things.....it depends.

Gargants are ultimately designed to lead armies as figureheads. Mechanical manifestations of Gork and Mork.

So whilst yes, a Warlord has superior firepower in a duel, a Great Gargant just isn’t going to be found on its own.

Then there’s typical Orky ingenuinity. Chainshot from a Bellygun. If your shields are down, so is your Titan, as they take a leaf out the Snowspeeder Playbook.

They’re also a tougher to deal with. Unless you detonate their magazine, there’s no real opportunity for critical damage. And all the time they keep on lumbering on

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As with all things.....it depends.

Gargants are ultimately designed to lead armies as figureheads. Mechanical manifestations of Gork and Mork.

So whilst yes, a Warlord has superior firepower in a duel, a Great Gargant just isn’t going to be found on its own.

Then there’s typical Orky ingenuinity. Chainshot from a Bellygun. If your shields are down, so is your Titan, as they take a leaf out the Snowspeeder Playbook.

They’re also a tougher to deal with. Unless you detonate their magazine, there’s no real opportunity for critical damage. And all the time they keep on lumbering on

The last Knight book from Andy Clark has some great bits with Orks vs Knight Households(not just Knights but the households have air support, infantry and vehicles including bane blade sized crawlers) including all the various Orky war machines - Great Gargants and the like - one has a very nasty super powerful EMP style gun arm which wreaks havoc.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Lots of good points here and its where the fluff is pretty similar to the rules.

Ork Gargants are not as efficient, usually slower and if they have shields they are usually burnt out when they fail. However they need to be worn down - and this gets more impressive as the scale of the Gargant goes up. Smaller stompas and the like can be one shoted by larger Titans.

Helsreach is not only a great read (and it really is) but has plenty of Titan vs Gargant combat culminating in Storm Herald (Imperator) vs Godbreaker (mega gargant - or maybe bigger) - earlier in the book, Storm Herald and her escorts (2 Warhounds and a Reaver) have killed something like 14 gargants - or Scrap Engines on their own in one engagement.

And the reason Stormherald lost this was because they'd been fighting for so long, while the Gargant equivalent was almost fresh out of the line.

 Lysenis wrote:
Isn't the Morkanaut/Gorkanaut supposed to be equivalent to knights?

Well not in game terms and not in model size nor in historic terms from when stompas and knights were first introduced(Epic)

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Lots of good points here and its where the fluff is pretty similar to the rules.

Ork Gargants are not as efficient, usually slower and if they have shields they are usually burnt out when they fail. However they need to be worn down - and this gets more impressive as the scale of the Gargant goes up. Smaller stompas and the like can be one shoted by larger Titans.

Helsreach is not only a great read (and it really is) but has plenty of Titan vs Gargant combat culminating in Storm Herald (Imperator) vs Godbreaker (mega gargant - or maybe bigger) - earlier in the book, Storm Herald and her escorts (2 Warhounds and a Reaver) have killed something like 14 gargants - or Scrap Engines on their own in one engagement.

And the reason Stormherald lost this was because they'd been fighting for so long, while the Gargant equivalent was almost fresh out of the line.

the titans in that fight never should have been deployed as they where too. the governer was almost criminally incompetant IIRC

Not the same War for Armageddon

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not the same War for Armageddon

ahh my bad, so many bloody wars for that world

tneva82 wrote:

 Lysenis wrote:
Isn't the Morkanaut/Gorkanaut supposed to be equivalent to knights?

Well not in game terms and not in model size nor in historic terms from when stompas and knights were first introduced(Epic)

So where does everything sit now?

Stompas are bigger than Knights (perhaps comparable to Acastus Knights?), Gorka/Morkanauts are smaller - perhaps comparable to Armigers.

I would say the classes of titans are similar, warlord tomgreat gargant etc but with all,things ORK if it’s working well it should be better than an imperial version but how often does it work exactly as it should. In the old adeptus and codex titanicus games great gargants were absolutely deadly. Masses of firepower and very very tough. Degraded as the absorbed damage but kept on going. They were far more resilient than a warlord but not as agile or versatile.