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Hello Dakka!

I've primarily spent most of my hobby time painting my models. I like to display them. As a way to get social I thought it'd be a nice idea to try playing and to get my boyfriend into the game. We've played 3 games so far, he won the first but I've won the next two. He struggles with confidence I find and I'm just not sure what to do. The only thing he seems to be into is building the models. Painting and playing, even the lore... Not nearly the same interest as building.

I'm primarily focused on the game right now. He feels that he cannot deal with how many models I bring to the table. I only have knowledge of Orks so I can't really give him advice on how to deal with my army properly. He plays Eldar primarily, he's so far got a nice little collection. I'm sure a list will help with advice soooo he has:

1 Wraithlord
5 Wraithblades
5 Wraithguard
Eldrad
2 Farseers
1 Warwalker
1 Fire Prism
20 Guardians
1 Autarch
1 Solitaire
1 Spiritseer

He's been buying models that he likes the look of, especially the wraith construct stuff. From what I've read they are kind of weak though? I'm just not sure what to suggest for him at all. So I've come to you guys for any help you can offer. Perhaps models to look into the future, how to kit out his guys, ways that units work together, etc. We've been playing with the core basic rules so far, using power level instead of points. Just baby steps as I'm learning as well. Would using CPs and the other more advanced stuff help him out? He's using the codex and I'd imagine not having access to all those strategems would be part of the problem?

If it helps my list for most of our games has been 60 Boyz, a warboss or Ghaz, a weirdboy or two and a pain boy. Then I just bring random stuff that I like on top of that, lootas for example. I've suggested to him I can try to bring less Boyz and more toys but he doesn't want me to have to handicap myself just to compete.

(Grain of salt, I’m a more casual Eldar player, and haven’t seen an orc across the table in 8th)

Horde armies are generally in a good spot right now. Just the math of killing that many models makes it hard to chew through. For an Eldar army, he has next to no mobility, so he needs to deal with you on your terms. Almost all his anti infantry firepower is slow and short ranged.

Eldar, and 8th in general, rely on buffs and synergy. Get re-rolls on the important units when you need them, debuff your targets when you can. For Eldar a lot of that is going to be psychic shenanigans. Guide, Doom, Fortune. Although which ones are best depend a lot on the situation.

There are some stratagems that could help as well. Webway strike the 20 man guardian blob, buff it, and vaporize something. Getting a second Fire Prism would let him use another nice one.

Some wave serpents would be nice, and maybe a spiritseer.

It is 2-1? I would hardly call that struggling.

Also, if it's is more important for him to play with certain kinds of models than winning, then that is his choice. If he likes to build models, and you like to play the game, then maybe you should play the game more, and he should build some more models. A relationship does not mandate that you do everything together. Regards

 Nevelon wrote:
(Grain of salt, I’m a more casual Eldar player, and haven’t seen an orc across the table in 8th)

Horde armies are generally in a good spot right now. Just the math of killing that many models makes it hard to chew through. For an Eldar army, he has next to no mobility, so he needs to deal with you on your terms. Almost all his anti infantry firepower is slow and short ranged.

Eldar, and 8th in general, rely on buffs and synergy. Get re-rolls on the important units when you need them, debuff your targets when you can. For Eldar a lot of that is going to be psychic shenanigans. Guide, Doom, Fortune. Although which ones are best depend a lot on the situation.

There are some stratagems that could help as well. Webway strike the 20 man guardian blob, buff it, and vaporize something. Getting a second Fire Prism would let him use another nice one.

Some wave serpents would be nice, and maybe a spiritseer.

Thank you for the input! He's actually never fielded his guardians all in a single unit before, is it generally better to field them in bigger units? We want to bulk out his collection more but there's only so much money to go around lol. I think next time we play we will proxy some models so he can try out some suggestions here.

pismakron wrote:
It is 2-1? I would hardly call that struggling.

Also, if it's is more important for him to play with certain kinds of models than winning, then that is his choice. If he likes to build models, and you like to play the game, then maybe you should play the game more, and he should build some more models. A relationship does not mandate that you do everything together. Regards

I think I may have misrepresented his interest in playing in my original post. He enjoys the game but just feels ineffective at it. When I had said my focus was on the game now I just meant that I want to figure out how to make the game better for him instead of building his skill as a painter, or exploring the lore. Not that I'm focused on the game and he is not. The main reason behind starting to play was to make friends and become social as we both don't really have any friends. The first game he had won because I made a few horrible tactical errors, the two after that I won were pretty one sided. I really do appreciate the advice still, I should have fleshed out my post a bit more.

 KelseyC wrote:


Thank you for the input! He's actually never fielded his guardians all in a single unit before, is it generally better to field them in bigger units? We want to bulk out his collection more but there's only so much money to go around lol. I think next time we play we will proxy some models so he can try out some suggestions here.

In general you want more smaller units. However, there are times one big one is better. If your farseer can only guide one unit, you can get 20 guys in one cast, rather then 10. Same with stratagems. There are drawbacks, such as the whole blob being vulnerable. It’s a more high risk, high reward ploy. YMMV

I assume he's taking Ulthwe craftworld?

How many points are you playing?

What sort of missions?

He needs to use his stratagems and manoeuvrability. The Fire Prism should be able to light up a fair few Boyz every turn for example. Is he using the codex rules and double firing? He should deploy his unit's away from you and in cover. If you're playing objectives he should place his in his own deployment. He should take only shuriken cannons for his optional weapons (on war walker for example), any heavy AP weapons are probably wasted against you. His wraith lord should be built for cqc and with flamers. His wraith guard should be built anti horde (can't remember weapon name). With the Ulthwe specific black guardian stratagem Guardians can melt Boyz with their 2+ to hit and 5+ - 3AP shots. He probably has too many psykers but they should be dropping Doom, Guide and the movement debuff power every turn in addition to smite. His war walker should come on a flank and attack a vulnerable or dangerous target.

I find your post particularly interesting, my friend and I play often - he is Ulthwe and his list is not too dissimilar from your bf. I am Orks and my list isn't too far off yours. My friend does not struggle against me much at all. Particularly if he has the first turn. Does your bf run his units towards you? Is he engaging you on you terms rather than his?

He's been taking the Iyanden trait, Ulthwe seems like it'd benefit him much more against me. We've been using power level to keep it simple as we are both new to playing. We want to start using points soon, I figured starting with PL would be better to keep it simpler for him. He finds all the rules and things overwhelming so I try to slowly introduce new things instead of going straight into the deep end. We usually do 50 power level or so. He got some new models over the holidays so we did 75 for our last game, which was mostly all his models. For all our games we've done the basic Only War missions, I got the rulebook during the holidays though so I'm eager to try other missions. Maybe there are some that might favour him slightly?

He is using the codex rules, I'm definitely scared of his fire prism. He doesn't really come towards me at all. He deploys his guys and fires what he can and waits for my horde to approach. We've actually not used detachments and CP, as mentioned before: baby steps. Our next game we will be using detachments, CP, and strategems. I suppose I should have mentioned all this in my OP as it may be partly to blame for his struggles.

I'm hoping this thread will end up helping him some. Thank you

 KelseyC wrote:
He's been taking the Iyanden trait, Ulthwe seems like it'd benefit him much more against me. We've been using power level to keep it simple as we are both new to playing. We want to start using points soon, I figured starting with PL would be better to keep it simpler for him. He finds all the rules and things overwhelming so I try to slowly introduce new things instead of going straight into the deep end. We usually do 50 power level or so. He got some new models over the holidays so we did 75 for our last game, which was mostly all his models. For all our games we've done the basic Only War missions, I got the rulebook during the holidays though so I'm eager to try other missions. Maybe there are some that might favour him slightly?

He is using the codex rules, I'm definitely scared of his fire prism. He doesn't really come towards me at all. He deploys his guys and fires what he can and waits for my horde to approach. We've actually not used detachments and CP, as mentioned before: baby steps. Our next game we will be using detachments, CP, and strategems. I suppose I should have mentioned all this in my OP as it may be partly to blame for his struggles.

I'm hoping this thread will end up helping him some. Thank you

Is he into any types of strategy computer games, chess, sports or anything like that? Like anything else in life, the only way to become more effective and to achieve your "desired" results is to prepare, practice and set yourself up for success. Watching battle reports, reading up on tactica, listening to some podcasts, attending tournaments can all help him increase his exposure to the game and the quicker things become natural and less (I wonder how things work) the sooner he'll be able to play the game it was meant to be played with tactics and strategy in mind.

For the future I'd say look into any units with a high rate of fire to take down all those Boyz. Swooping Hawks, the Night Spinner tank, Windriders and Vypers with shuriken cannons/scatter lasers are missing from his list - all have a high rate of fire and the manoeuvrability to keep out of your reach.

Yea I'd play with missions. They make a pretty significant difference. I'd also play with points, they are a lot more balanced for Eldar players since the codex release.

At the end of the day it sounds like you're both still learning or at the very least he is. Wins/losses don't really mean much when you've only had 3 games so I'd suggest you keep doing what you're doing. Take it steady, maybe tell your bf what we said here in terms of weapons that are particularly effective against Orks and so on.

Keep playing your friendly games and most importantly play for fun. For all we know you might have misinterpreted a rule or you might not be following the game properly anyway and that could have a massive impact on the outcome.

I have a friend that plays eldar against my orks notable things that have put a lot of pain on my boys squads:

Him casting doom on a boy squad and guide on a squad of warwalkers equals nearly entire squads wiped.

There is some unit i am not familiar with in eldar that has a flamer type effect (auto hit) absolutely miserable to charge from within range for orks.

Really him managing his psychic powers with appropriate threat recognition is going to really help him out.

I think our play was before the codex craftworlds though so take that all with a grain of salt.

I have no particular insight about Orks nor Eldar, but one thing you could try is swapping armies for a game or two. One of the fastest ways to get insight into the vulnerabilities and strengths of an army is to play it.

If you win with the Eldar, you can give him tips on how to do it as well. If he wins with the Orks, he should get good insight into the biggest threats that for him to counter, and you may be able to offer suggestions on what the Eldar need to be competitive against your Orks.

See if he'll proxy those Guardians as Dire Avengers. Without command points he'll get much more use of the Dire Avenger's extra range and Overwatch bonuses.

Wraithblades with Swords will chew Orks better than Axes, and nearly as survivable.

Wraithguard with D-Scythes will make charges a lot more risky and mow down Orks in range.

Run both Farseers one to Guide and Doom, one to Executioner and Smite (but take Doom anyway).

Spiritseer can either increase Wraithguard/blades saves or make sure they get to their targets faster.

Try taking smaller units of orks and fewer units of basic orks. If you throw in some less efficient, multi-wound model units, his more costly elite eldar will have an easier time.

Orks are way, way strong right now (just had a rough game against them myself). If i had to say his best bet is to take flyers against orks. -1 to hit really nerfs ork shooting and if they can't fly then they can't even melee the flyers. This basically leaves orks in a really awful position against flyers unless they themselves bring flyers to fight them.

Thank you for all the input and advice!

We've played two more games since I created this thread. The first was 1000 pts, we did Cleanse and Capture. It was the best game of 40k I've ever played (to be fair I've played less than ten total). He tried using Wraithblades with the swords instead. Just a unit of five put out 20 attacks on the charge! If he takes a unit of ten and guides them that'd be a scary thought. The last few turns left us with just a few units each. 2 Wraithblades and a Hemlock against my KMK, Warboss, and a painboy. The Warboss ended up taking out the Hemlock at the end, with an insanely lucky potshot. The Warboss and painboy were the last ones standing. We both ended with 4 victory points though. Tonight we played a small 500 point game, He had Eldrad, 2 units of 10 Guardians, and the Hemlock. I had a unit of 30 Boyz, a painboy, Warboss, and 6 warbikers. It was totally one sided, we both feel bigger point games give him a better chance.

We did try using stratagems. It didn't really help him all that much. Although I think a lack of knowledge regarding his available strategems is a problem. He spent lots of time reading while we played to see if any applied to what was happening. I'm starting to think it may be a bigger issue than a lack of understanding of the rules that lead to his struggles, perhaps there's some skill in tactics/strategy that needs to be developed on his end. He seems to struggle coming up with his own strategies, I noticed this especially with list building. He doesn't seem to build his lists with cohesion. It's sort of just take stuff that sounds like it'll get the job done. Instead of making a list that'll get the job done more effectively with units that work well together. As suggested above, he has been using his psychic powers more effectively, I've noticed the improvements from that for sure. Although there are many more things to help him fine tune before he'll be mopping the floor with my horde. We are heading out to a community centre tomorrow to play with people. Every Sunday people go play 40k, I'm hoping playing against others and maybe seeing and talking to other Eldar players will help too.

Would any one have suggestions and how to expand his army next in the future? We've both been thinking two more boxes of guardians would be a nice addition. Then as mentioned above by someone else maybe we should look into more Windriders or Vypers. I accidentally left out the three Windriders that he already has in my OP.

How the hell is he fielding a Solitaire? That's a harlequin unit....

As for additions, dark reapers, shining spears, and hemlock wraithfighters are some of our best units.

Also, he should definitely drop some farseers, maybe replacing with a couple of spiritseers. You can only cast each power once a turn and farseers are expensive for smite. Honestly just Eldrad would be fine, maybe 1 farseer but 2+Eldrad is massive overkill.

He wants to kill swarms? As elder that's easy, but it may be hard for him given what he has and what he likes to take. I am lucky because I love warwalkers.

3 warwalkers with eldar missile launchers, farseer lord with Beil-tan reroll trait, 3 squad of 10 dire avengers, exarch with dual shurikens, wraithlords with shuriken cannons or wave serpents with shuriken cannons.

The farseer can doom anything that it wants dead, the Warwalkers can reroll thanks to the farseer and those eldar missile launchers are useful vs anything really, and all those shuriken weapons will also reroll thanks to Beil-tan. Use the avengers and wave serpents to protect the farseer / warwalkers firebase from deeps trikes and assaults.

I don't play against orks but this is where I start vs Tyrnaids and it has worked very well against genestealers/gaunt swarms. And if you do lose the Warwalkers to long range fire jump everything back into the waveserpents and switch to very mobile force mid game.

Good luck!

The basic thing he needs is more little toy soldiers, with more guns. His collection is mainly made up of characters, who aren’t that good against hordes because they don’t bring meaningful firepower compared to their cost.

Eldar actually have loads of good shooty units, so he’d just need to take some of them to have a better chance. And the general rule should be to try and shoot orks from a distance, rather than getting close where their choppas start working.

It's a bit difficult to give advice because it sounds like your bf is just learning the game. As other have said, his best bet is to sit as far away as possible from you and light you up.

Eldrad is probably a waste in such a low point game (500 - 1000), instead take a farseer on JB or foot. Take a Warlock and dump him near the Guardians (that are preferably in cover) and get him to buff them every turn.

Vypers I find to be very annoying because they are so fast. Does he have a Prism? He can fly out of combat and still shoot, he needs to make sure he's doing this if he's using the model. It also does well enough against hordes, it'll eat your bikes.

If you want to make things easier for him, take 6 or 9 Nob Bikers. Don't take the KMK. That should tip things in his favour significantly.

Everyone is different but I don't like the advice of take weaker stuff to make it easier on him. When I first learned to play the person who taught me won the first 15 games we played. He didn't take it easy on me by throwing the game or taking obviously weak stuff to what I was taking, we would play then after I would ask what I could have done better. I learned the hard way as a sm player that eldar are evil and must die.

(Took 10 years before I started to collect my own eldar because I wanted to be evil too lol)

Point is eldar can do it, and orks are not that amazing. Anything that lowers their bs to hit will cause them serious issues. His stuff looks like it would be better vs heavy armor / elite targets like marines. He has no aspect warriors which are a huge part of eldar ability for success. You don't need them but if he is going wraith constructs and hq based then he is going to have a hard time and will need more guardians.