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Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say



UK

Imperial fists were always siege defenders to counter the iron warriors siege attackers in my opinion, but in 8th the fists seem to have swapped roles.

How do people feel about this?

Dark Angels tactics seem to be the new defensive tactics, are these more suitable to traditional fists than the new ones?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts!


"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
"If you can't keep up, go and join the Death Guard"
"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran" 
   
Made in us
World-Weary Pathfinder





Well not knowing the DA 8th codex, but knowing them in general, your just seeing the more shooty side of DA's standard company which can come off as 'defensive'. Fluff wise Ironwing can be kind of Imperial fist'ish too. I doubt GW would ever flip roles like that those are pretty core elements your worried about. I think they could do a better job defining Imperial Fists though in the game setting. Fortification rules, Marines that excel at manning fortification weaponry or even a special fortification just for the fists. It's really not hard, it's almost akin to Wolves, wolfing in wolfville while alpha wolfing wolves. IF should basically be dragging around some type of fortification for games and people should loath it. Its just that IF haven't been defined very well on the table. You more or less are left with grabbing things for a list TOO define them that anyone can grab. DA has been defined very well for years, DW, RW, Fallen, Cypher, Plasma, Interrogator Chaplin's there is a lot going on with DA rule wise.

Comparing them to IF is kind of sad and harsh cause of the treatment IF has had over the years also Index vs Codex. I feel for IF DA has enough toys they don't need anymore if what you worry about is true. I can kind of get that worry as I saw it that way myself awhile back when Fortress of Redemption came out. Who's on the box cover? Oh yeah the one army that does siege warfare right....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

A theme for dark angels has been "Not one step back", and reflects the idea that the battle companies were the anvil to the wings hammer. Grim resolve represents their unwillingness to be moved from their chosen ground, no matter the consequences.

The Imperial fist on the other hand is about making sure their defenses are the only ones that matters. It makes every engagement a horde of enemies charging across open ground into the dug in positions of the Imperial fists. Basically it makes every battle the kind of battle the imperial fists should be fighting.

Mechanics wise, I think the fists Chapter tactic might be a bit stronger overall, denying MEQ the chance to get a 2+ save, and it's not limited by mobility. Large chunks of a dark angels force might never get the reroll ones from grim resolve, like ravenwing and deathwing which should always be on the offensive.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in gb
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say



UK

I'm not saying dark angels tactics aren't suitable for dark angels, I'm just asking if you were going to do traditional defensive imperial fists would you rather use yellow dark angels or codex imperial fists?


"That's how a Luna Wolf fights."
"If you can't keep up, go and join the Death Guard"
"It had often been said that Space Marines knew no fear, but when Angron charged, he ran" 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I'd like to have seen something to the extent of "While an Imperial Fists unit is within X" of a fortification, friendly or enemy, that unit gains X" type of gameplay mechanic. It causes a different type of gameplay design that would make Imperial Fists play differently than vanilla marines. They'd take more fortifications and do better against enemies with fortifications. The enemy can deny that ability by focusing the fortifications while the Fists player is protecting them.
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

DAs totally outclass standard IFs. It's not even close is it?
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

I think the Imperial Fists chapter tactic is fluffy enough, it's just not that great as the game is right now. As more armies come out maybe we'll see more factions getting cover bonuses like Jormungandr?

I hear it mentioned somewhere else that it would have been better if IF/IW had their stratagem and chapter tactics switched, so IF would get exploding 6s with bolters and IW would get FNP and they would both have Ignore Cover and re-rolls against buildings as their stratagem. I think that could have been a better way to go, but maybe with future releases it will become more obvious why GW chose to write the rules the way they did.

 Viridian wrote:
Comparing them to IF is kind of sad and harsh cause of the treatment IF has had over the years also Index vs Codex. I feel for IF DA has enough toys they don't need anymore if what you worry about is true. I can kind of get that worry as I saw it that way myself awhile back when Fortress of Redemption came out. Who's on the box cover? Oh yeah the one army that does siege warfare right....

I would definitely like to see the Chapters/Legions that don't get as much attention get their own stuff down the road, even if it is in the form of more stratagems, warlord traits, etc. rather than lots of special models.

I was listening to a podcast a while back and one of the GW writers (I think Gav Thorpe but I wouldn't swear to it) said that early on it was decided to focus on Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels. The reason being that Ultramarines were extremely conventional while Space Wolves were extremely unconventional, and Blood Angels were physically corrupt but spiritually pure while Dark Angels were physically pure but spiritually corrupt.

I don't have a problem with those four chapters and the four legions that are associated with specific Chaos Gods getting the most attention. What really bothers me is when people say things along the lines of "[Chapter/Legion] shouldn't have its own book because they don't have enough interesting stuff to make it worthwhile." Even though the other chapters and legions haven't had near as much attention, by this point the ones I'm familiar have all have enough cool things that have never had rules that they could easily support their own books. I'm definitely not saying that I think that giving every chapter and legion their own book should be a priority, just that it would be nice to see that happen down the road eventually.

A Castellan Rhino stratagem for the Iron Warriors would make me really happy. It could be done in such a way that makes the Imperial Fists chapter tactic better as well. A model and separate unit entry would be even better, but not necessary.

I'd like to see more mobile and field expedient fortifications like Aegis Defense Lines and the Tau Tidewall. Things that are easier to explain narratively as they are movable. I was thinking about modeling up some Vengeance Weapon Batteries as Iron Warrior's daemonic drop pods. Basically the idea is that they are dropping in immobile daemon engines from space. I also want to model Ork fortifications as being trailers that they pull behind their Battle Wagons and Kill Tanks and unhitch when the enemy is spotted.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





I think nearly any chapter COULD have it's own "codex: if you where willing to change what that was. during 6th and 7th edition GW tried releasing codex supplements. and these where something that, could have, with the right work, done pretty good. however at the same time I think those who would want a "big book of fluff" are likely in a minority. as most people want their expanded setting lore simply from BL.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'




Alaska

There's were lots of mini-dexes back in the day. They were inexpensive and could actually have a lot of special units, although that was back when GW didn't care about not having official models available.

The more recent AoS books are also pretty good examples of using Warlord Traits, Relics, Spells and Battalions to make a very useful book even though all the unit entries are available elsewhere for free. With a few stratagems it could be possible to add a lot of flavor and a distinct playstyle to an army without giving it special units.

After all the remaining existing armies get their codexes I'm hoping we see more campaign books and more specific codexes coming out. I hope that the campaign books mostly have stuff for Narrative Play while the codexes have the rules for matched play, which could help keep people from complaining about having to buy and carry so many books.

YELL REAL LOUD AN' CARRY A BIG CHOPPA! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Geederps couldn't get their own fluff right with both hands and a map.

Pretty disappointed with the faction blandness of 8th. Too many copy-pasted stratagems etc.
   
Made in ru
Longtime Dakkanaut



Moscow, Russia

It seems to me that IF's chapter tactics will really come into their own in Stronghold Assault and suchlike -- the kind of things that they are, in fluff, specialized in.

It's quite situational, but they should be very good there.

Has anyone tried it?
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

I actually made this point to GW myself. There is a bit of supporting evidence for Imperial Fists having the rules for Grim Resolve.

1. The Rerolls of 1s mimics the Bolter Drill rule of 6e/7e. While they didn't have to be still for that in past editions, there has to be a give and take. Additionally, those Rerolls when sitting still increases the effectiveness of Devastators, as they are likely to be stationary anyway, so their heavy weapons will be more likely to hit.
2. The Imperial Fists are all about extreme accuracy. How does Ignore Cover reflect that? Cover affects Armor Save, not to hit.
3. The Imperial Fists are all about hunkering down and letting the enemy come to them. Being stationary for the bonus from Grim Resolve can reflect that.
4. Imperial Fists and their Successors are traditionally quite Hardy and difficult to move once they have planted their feet. In 7e(6e for Pedro as well), Pedro Kantor and Captain Lysander both had the Iron Resolve Warlord Trait. They don't back down easily. Never losing more than one man to Morale fits quite well here. The Hallmark of this trait was the Iron Cage. Despite taking mounting casualties, the Imperial Fists did not back down and never lost their resolve.
5. They ARE the Last Wall. They do not back down.

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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 casvalremdeikun wrote:

2. The Imperial Fists are all about extreme accuracy. How does Ignore Cover reflect that? Cover affects Armor Save, not to hit.


I agree with most of your points, however I can see an argument for ignoring cover making sense. Cover isn't actually adding to the unit's armour, that's an abstraction. It's a combination of some obstacles blocking shots, and others that don't really stop shots but obscure vision and make it difficult to accurately determine where to aim on the target.

So ignoring cover saves, when applied to weapons without an area of effect, is essentially saying the unit is firing with a high degree of precision.

Yes, this could have been represented by a +1 to hit, but that is incredibly powerful in this edition, so I can see this as a compromise for balance purposes.
   
 
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