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More Total War!!!!


Apparently the announcement was supposed to be tomorrow, but someone leaked aspects of it, so they came out ahead.
Announcing a new Total War era...

The year is 190CE. China is in turmoil. The Han Dynasty crumbles before the child-emperor. He is but a figurehead; a mere puppet for the tyrant warlord Dong Zhuo. It is a brutal and oppressive regime, and as Dong Zhuo’s power grows, the empire slips further into the cauldron of anarchy. But hope yet blossoms.

Three heroes, sworn to brotherhood in the face of tyranny, rally support for the trials ahead. Scenting opportunity, warlords from China’s great families follow suit, forming a fragile coalition in a bid to challenge Dong Zhuo’s remorseless rule. Will they triumph against the tyrant, or will personal ambition shatter their already crumbling alliance and drive them to supremacy?

The crucible fizzes. Allegiances shift. The fires of conflict stoke opportunity. Only one thing is certain: the very future of China will be shaped by its champions. Total War: Three Kingdoms is the next major historical strategy game in the award-winning Total War series.



This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2021/05/27 16:12:40


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Chinese Robert Baratheon on the left of that still.

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Trailer looks like its more for dynasty warriors

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I... actually don't know. Help?

Nice. I've always wanted a chinese-centered Total War, although I was hoping for a 17th-century Europe. A shame it'll probably have the mechanics of the latest games...

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Few issues I currently have on my mind.

Unit diversity, this wouldn't really be that big seeing as the three main factions are very similar and we might not get non-Chinese factions, plus diversity already wasn't huge in the 'early' Chinese armies. So is it going to be a lot of spear men with some early crossbow, sword units and light cav in for flavor? I'm trying not to imagine a more dressed down Shogun roster (all have the same troops).

Siege battles? The Warhammer ones are fine for Warhammer, but for a historical TW with actual background knowledge I would expect a little more.

That trailer? I will echo what some have already said, it screams Dynasty Warriors. I'm ok with Warhammer human heroes massively outperforming other humans and surviving a ton because its fantasy and they have magic weapons and such. A regular human in a historical TW murdering hundreds each battle and surviving a ton? If transplanted 1 on 1 from Warhammer I would pass.

Curious to see how they are approaching these issues, I wonder if they are going for a little fantasy touch seeing as the Three Kingdoms have been very romanticized.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/10 20:28:55


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All I have to say is two words.

fething. FINALLY.

   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:

That trailer? I will echo what some have already said, it screams Dynasty Warriors. I'm ok with Warhammer human heroes massively outperforming other humans and surviving a ton because its fantasy and they have magic weapons and such. A regular human in a historical TW murdering hundreds each battle and surviving a ton? If transplanted 1 on 1 from Warhammer I would pass.


To be fair (even though I brought it up), it may well be just an artsy cinematic trailer and the various leaders don't actually fight that way in game. (Either not on the field or fight with reasonably sized bodyguard units or whatever)

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Voss wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

That trailer? I will echo what some have already said, it screams Dynasty Warriors. I'm ok with Warhammer human heroes massively outperforming other humans and surviving a ton because its fantasy and they have magic weapons and such. A regular human in a historical TW murdering hundreds each battle and surviving a ton? If transplanted 1 on 1 from Warhammer I would pass.


To be fair (even though I brought it up), it may well be just an artsy cinematic trailer and the various leaders don't actually fight that way in game. (Either not on the field or fight with reasonably sized bodyguard units or whatever)

Yeah its possible they won't, but for a TW its still an odd trailer because its very focused on characters, which is why I agree that it seems more suited as a Dynasty Warriors trailer (they made the three guys fighting seemingly a head taller than the foot soldiers). Still, the trailer seems more focused on the heroes like the Warhammer ones were. In a way its also similar to the Shogun 2 one in the duel scene, but that one was less over the top and not focused on important characters. Like I said, lot of questions that will take some time to get answers to I guess. But a hero system transplanted directly from Warhammer just doesn't sound appealing for a 'historical' TW. The trailer does give off that vibe though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/10 21:38:56


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I wouldn't be surprised if heroes and lords take part in the battles like they do in Warhammer, though likely not taking out whole regiments themselves and obviously not throwing fireballs and gak around. It's an era that's been heavily romanticised, so they probably want to play that up a bit for the game itself as well.

Most likely they will be mobile morale buffers than can lend a hand disrupting regiments and have some fun fighting animations with other heroes
   
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I would not be surprised if individuals like Zhang Fei or Guan Yu become hero characters, either solo or with their own squads. Zhuge Liang and other such more known for strategists could be generals that have cooldown-based abilities.

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 Melissia wrote:
I would not be surprised if individuals like Zhang Fei or Guan Yu become hero characters, either solo or with their own squads. Zhuge Liang and other such more known for strategists could be generals that have cooldown-based abilities.


If Lu Bu is not a hero character I'll eat my Shogun 2 disc.

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Voss wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:

That trailer? I will echo what some have already said, it screams Dynasty Warriors. I'm ok with Warhammer human heroes massively outperforming other humans and surviving a ton because its fantasy and they have magic weapons and such. A regular human in a historical TW murdering hundreds each battle and surviving a ton? If transplanted 1 on 1 from Warhammer I would pass.


To be fair (even though I brought it up), it may well be just an artsy cinematic trailer and the various leaders don't actually fight that way in game. (Either not on the field or fight with reasonably sized bodyguard units or whatever)


YOu just need to compare the Shogun 2 Cinematic to this Cinematic to see how this doesn't appear to be "historical". Is just totally Dinasty Warriors-esque. And in both of them you see "heroes" fighting.

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 nels1031 wrote:
More Total War!!!!


Apparently the announcement was supposed to be tomorrow, but someone leaked aspects of it, so they came out ahead.
Announcing a new Total War era...

The year is 190CE. China is in turmoil. The Han Dynasty crumbles before the child-emperor. He is but a figurehead; a mere puppet for the tyrant warlord Dong Zhuo. It is a brutal and oppressive regime, and as Dong Zhuo’s power grows, the empire slips further into the cauldron of anarchy. But hope yet blossoms.

Three heroes, sworn to brotherhood in the face of tyranny, rally support for the trials ahead. Scenting opportunity, warlords from China’s great families follow suit, forming a fragile coalition in a bid to challenge Dong Zhuo’s remorseless rule. Will they triumph against the tyrant, or will personal ambition shatter their already crumbling alliance and drive them to supremacy?

The crucible fizzes. Allegiances shift. The fires of conflict stoke opportunity. Only one thing is certain: the very future of China will be shaped by its champions. Total War: Three Kingdoms is the next major historical strategy game in the award-winning Total War series.





YESSSSSS!!!!!!! Called it! I knew this would be a great place for Total War to go. *cue dynasty warriors music*

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 -Loki- wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if heroes and lords take part in the battles like they do in Warhammer, though likely not taking out whole regiments themselves and obviously not throwing fireballs and gak around. It's an era that's been heavily romanticised, so they probably want to play that up a bit for the game itself as well.

Most likely they will be mobile morale buffers than can lend a hand disrupting regiments and have some fun fighting animations with other heroes


The era and the big names in particular. I don't have an issue with the game playing that up though as it is fundamentally part of the charm of the period.

Guan Yu is way more fun as an exaggerated bad ass than as the incompetent military commander he really was, and fun-drunk Zhang Fei is a lot more interesting than a guy who would so frequently go into drunken rages his own men killed him because they hated him that much. Ma Chao the splendid is a lot more heroic than historical Ma Chao (who was a sociopathic maniac). They can still tell the broad strokes of history here while maintaining a lot of the cheesy charm that has made the period so popular both in China and outside of it. I think it's smart to play into the Dynasty Warriors motif a little bit.

   
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 LordofHats wrote:
All I have to say is two words.

fething. FINALLY.


This. It's an important period of time both from an historical aspect, and from a cultural aspect. It's something that really should be getting a lot more exposure from big developers (aside from Koei, who do both the Dynasty Warriors series, and a more serious strategy serious about the era).


As for heroes...

On the one hand, a purely historical game would be nice. On the other, this is the Three Kingdoms era that we're talking about. The characters - as depicted in the novel - would fit right in with the Dynasty Warriors games.

The fact that they're playing up Lu Bei tells me that, at the very least, they're going to be ignoring some of the more troubling aspects of the real history. Hopefully that doesn't mean that Cao Cao automatically gets the villain hat.


Edit - I'm pretty sure the first guy in the big fight at the end of the trailer is supposed to be Lu Bu.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 05:21:52


 
   
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It looks like they will be basing much of it off Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is easily the best known "history" of the period despite knowingly containing massive amounts of ahistorical content and Characters a lot more romantic (and noble) than their historical counter parts.

Personally my favorite of the three big states has always be Eastern Wu Shu Han is overrated. The only reason they lasted any period of time at all was because of Zhuge Liang's political machinations and geography. Wu is where it's at


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eumerin wrote:



Edit - I'm pretty sure the first guy in the big fight at the end of the trailer is supposed to be Lu Bu.



The guy their fighting is clearly using Sky Piercer (depictions of Lu Bu's legendary halberd don't seem to change much across media), so the scene is clearly intended to represent the Battle of Hulao Pass, where Guan Yu and Zhang Fei are attributed as fighting Lu Bu in Romance of the Three Kingdoms (the battle itself is considered to be a fictional addition to the history of the era).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 05:36:58


   
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 LordofHats wrote:
It looks like they will be basing much of it off Romance of the Three Kingdoms, which is easily the best known "history" of the period despite knowingly containing massive amounts of ahistorical content and Characters a lot more romantic (and noble) than their historical counter parts.

Personally my favorite of the three big states has always be Eastern Wu Shu Han is overrated. The only reason they lasted any period of time at all was because of Zhuge Liang's political machinations and geography. Wu is where it's at


No Wei. Cao Cao is the lord and master of all!

If this game doesn't have an achievement called "Do not pursue Lu Bu!", then I will be very disappointed. ^_^



Just took a peek at the Total War reddit. Most of the posters there seem fairly enthused about it. But there are a few grumpy individuals who apparently feel the need to interject their "more historical than thou" comments about this announcement as a reply to anyone who suggests that this might be a good game.

Unit diversity, this wouldn't really be that big seeing as the three main factions are very similar and we might not get non-Chinese factions, plus diversity already wasn't huge in the 'early' Chinese armies. So is it going to be a lot of spear men with some early crossbow, sword units and light cav in for flavor? I'm trying not to imagine a more dressed down Shogun roster (all have the same troops).

Siege battles? The Warhammer ones are fine for Warhammer, but for a historical TW with actual background knowledge I would expect a little more.


As you note, unit diversity is a problem. Though there are some technological advances as time goes by. For instance, my understanding is that the Chinese repeating crossbow shows up mid-way through the era. We'll see. Additionally, the various "barbarians" (i.e. any group that isn't Han Chinese) will likely add some limited unit variety. I'm not familiar with siege tactics during the era. So I can't comment on that. But we should get some naval stuff. The Battle of Red Cliffs is a pretty strong contender for the title of "Biggest Naval Battle of All Time".

   
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The Repeating Crossbow is much older than the Three Kingdom's Era, though Zhuge Liang's improved design became incredibly prominent resulting in repeating crossbows in general being called "Zhuge Crossbows" which is where I assume the myth that they originated in the 3K period comes from.

As for the kinds of units there will be I suspect this game will be closer to Shogun 2 in style, which the factions generally having access to the same basic unit roster but with faction bonuses. Wei will almost certainly have bonuses toward's cavalry, Wu toward professional infantry/navy, and Shu toward more generic peasant infantry. They could do a more mercenary heavy system given the prominence of hired soldiers in the period. I'd expect Nanman to be present in south China and the Steppes peoples to be in North China. I don't know what they were called in this period but the Turks also had relatives living in the Western mountains who could be a faction. EDIT: They could port over the units of renown concept from Warhammer though as there are many special units featured in the myths and legends of the period that could be featured as such.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 06:58:50


   
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Eumerin wrote:
Unit diversity, this wouldn't really be that big seeing as the three main factions are very similar and we might not get non-Chinese factions, plus diversity already wasn't huge in the 'early' Chinese armies. So is it going to be a lot of spear men with some early crossbow, sword units and light cav in for flavor? I'm trying not to imagine a more dressed down Shogun roster (all have the same troops).

Siege battles? The Warhammer ones are fine for Warhammer, but for a historical TW with actual background knowledge I would expect a little more.


As you note, unit diversity is a problem. Though there are some technological advances as time goes by. For instance, my understanding is that the Chinese repeating crossbow shows up mid-way through the era. We'll see. Additionally, the various "barbarians" (i.e. any group that isn't Han Chinese) will likely add some limited unit variety. I'm not familiar with siege tactics during the era. So I can't comment on that. But we should get some naval stuff. The Battle of Red Cliffs is a pretty strong contender for the title of "Biggest Naval Battle of All Time".


Some advances true, but the majority of it was driven by incredible amounts of spear men and not more specialized troops (even though they came into being this was against armies in the tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands even though that is a stretch There is some diversity due to geographical nature such as the more mountainous Shu or more cav influenced Wei, but beyond the sailing capacity of the WU neither was really decisive. Population advantage really did most of the work it seems, with a large population decline too.

So I hope its not just the three Han ofshoots with minor variations, as they had interactions with what is now Korea, Vietnam and Mongolia with their respective peoples at the time. So it depends on if they take the easy way out for real variation. I hope they won't go back to the more fantastical approach for diversity such as Middle/New Kingdom Egypt for the Ptolemaics in Rome 1 or Elephant Cannons in Medieval 2.

Siege warfare over strategic locations played a large role, but its less emphasized in the romanticized version because its just less dramatic. Yet mountains, cities and passes had sometimes incredible fortifications. But Warhammer has very straightforward flat plain, small wall sieges. Which is fine for WFB (discounting Dwarfs) because the lore emphasises field battles. So a bit more investment into the appeal might be needed, as the annoying 'bugs' are destructive enough for possible gameplay.

Who knows, they don't have a large team available as they did for older games as they have split up into several teams. Will it weaken the final product? As long as it works on release its still objectively better than Rome 2. But what will we get? Part of me is excited and part is left wondering.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 08:30:00


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Ideally they'll start the game in the time period around the Yellow Turbin Rebellion. Might not be 100% historically accurate but it would let them build a map with all the major players of the period and not just the Three Kingdoms themselves.

   
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 LordofHats wrote:
Ideally they'll start the game in the time period around the Yellow Turbin Rebellion. Might not be 100% historically accurate but it would let them build a map with all the major players of the period and not just the Three Kingdoms themselves.

Its a good bet they start early with that rebellion. According to their blurp they start in 190 and the Yellow Turban Rebellion should still be in full swing. As for major players, I assume they will follow their formula, no large starting unified power blocks. Following Rome 2 and Atilla I would expect some core territories with the rest of the territory of major starting players to be made up of vassals in the vein of the Seleucids and Sassanids respectively in those games. Depends on map size and how fractured they plan to go, maybe they will just go for the one faction per province.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 09:25:34


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Absolutely brilliant, I've been waiting for this all my life! We will see if it can eclipse Dynasty Tactics 2 in my heart.

I think they will base this on the Romance of the Three Kingdoms book rather than the true history in which characters are larger than life therefore justifying them being hero units.

Lets hope they include factions from the whole stretch rather than just the titular three kingdoms of Wu, Shu and Wei. I would love to be able to play the Nanman, Yuan Shu, Lui Biao, Ma Teng, Zhang Jiao etc

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 09:35:02


 
   
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Yep sounds like a good play to start. I'd suspect starting playable factions to be Shu, Wei, Wu, Yuan Shao, and Dong Zhuo. They could implement Lu Bu as his own faction since he did have lands independent of his relationship with Dong Zhuo and simply start him as a vassal. Just cut out a few unimportant years/figures and Liu Bei can start in Xu province from the get go just for convenience. Tao Qian, the ruler of Xu in 190, isn't really that significant a figure of the period anyway. The interesting thing about this is that I don't think anyone in 190 would have thought that in ten years the winners of the great civil war would be three minor warlords with little land or resources. Cao Cao, Liu Bei, and Sun Ce/Quan would end up vying against each other for China but when the Yellow Turban Rebellion occurred they were nobility with low titles and limited (if any) holdings. Sun Jian was a figure of some renown at the time, but he died in 191. The creation of Wu was pretty much completely the work of his sons who didn't have nearly the same clout their father had. In 190 it would have been betting money on Liu Biao, Yuan Shao, Kong Rong, and Yuan Shu to take over China.

This would be a prime game to bring back the Horde system as well. Mass evacuation/forced migration were commonly used in Chinese history to move economic and labor resources to strategically vital positions and out of potential seizure by enemies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 10:11:29


   
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Hopefully they can do it some justice, but politics and diplomacy was never the strong suit of TW.

As for mechanics, no further removal would be my minimal expectation. With some luck they will re-introduce some old or just new mechanics. Its not the way they went previously though, I hope they don't just put all their effort into a shiny new engine with state of the art graphics. Pretty to look at but as shallow as a puddle makes for terrible longevity.

Give modders more freedom I would say. They did some amazing work in earlier TW games and are filling in some glaring gaps in mechanics in Warhammer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 10:31:14


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Oooh nice. I was wondering when CA will cover China.
I hope my antiquated rig can run it

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 11:48:02


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Liu Bei can start in Xu province from the get go just for convenience.

It's a tough one because even starting him in Xu would make the historical partition of China very unlikely.

Maybe Shu could be an emergent faction that appears in Jing at a particular date? A bit like the Romano-British in Barbarian Invasion.


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I hope they put in a mechanic where you can obtain the Imperial seal and declare yourself Emperor like Yuan Shu did :-p

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 12:48:15


 
   
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 Kroem wrote:

It's a tough one because even starting him in Xu would make the historical partition of China very unlikely.


Well he did historically start in Xu. It was the first government position he held that afforded him his own territory (and one he claimed in 196). Prior to hold that position he was just a landless lord under others. The alternative is starting him closer to Yi province but that would be even more historically inaccurate (it didn't happen until 212) and was only an option following the victory at Chi Bi.

I'm thinking of Shu as a playable faction mind you cause especially with the prominence given the sworn brothers in that trailer there's no way they won't be, which is tricky for Shu. Cao Cao and the Suns had territory holdings in 190 that give them definitively simple start positions. Liu Bei did not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 12:52:11


   
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Yea I'm not saying he didn't rule in Xu, but by placing him there to start with would encourage Shu to be in the North East rather than the South West.

So how to encourage them to attack Lui Shang and transfer their powerbase to the Yi province?

Jing would be ahistorical as he was only there after the surrender of Lui Biao, but would give him a chance of ending up in the right place!

I think you are right and they will start him in Xu though, CA never cared about Oda getting crushed every campaign in Shogun 2 after all

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 13:18:22


 
   
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Another possibility is to actually portray him as landless. Have him start as a horde and having to take his own territory? I wouldn't be surprised if they starting him in Yi honestly. That's the kind of historical detail CA has overlooked in the past for the sake of convenience. I'm fine with it either way. I'm just spit balling XD For that matter there were in general a lot of landless lords and rebel armies in this time period, something they could mechanically build into the game by separating the managing of armies from the holding of territories. Let the player lead and build a small force, work for landed lords and build up their power base until they can take their own territory?

Though Xu will likely be for Liu Bei what Owari was for Nobunaga. It's just a bad starting position, and from there Shu will likely be surrounded and wiped by all the factions around it. Especially if they go the obvious route and give Shu bonuses toward peasant armies which have typically been weak in the franchise.

Another interesting possibility is to create a more dynamic vassal system, one where no one ever really confederates and instead you have to keep your vassals in line and happy. Give the player the option to submit to another lord and scheme against him while using his position and power to advantage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 13:29:00


   
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Dorset, England

Yep a mix of total war and crusader kings would be perfect!

I think the starting factions will also include Yuan Shao and Dong Zhou at least, because surely they won't start with just 3.
   
 
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