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Which have you found to be more competitive in tournament style battles? If I run Manticores I'll take them in a Catachan detachment, the Basilisk would be Cadian as that's what the rest of my army is and I can avoid an HQ tax

Strictly competitively speaking, front-loading damage in an alpha-centric game is the cut-throat option. As such, I'd say the Manticore is better. Games are basically over, win or lose, by the third turn. 4 shot limit is a non-issue, in practice.

Yeah. You can forget the 4 turn limitation. If you run into that as game decider then you can comfort yourself you ran into once in the blue moon situation. In 99.99% times extra killyness of manticore trumps.

Much agree with the other responses. 4 turn shot limit is essentially unlimited shooting in 8th edition.

Manticores. Twice the fire output early makes the difference.

Though, there might be an argument for the Basilisk from its AP, now that the Manticore is more expensive. I might have to run the numbers again.

I'm going to play devils advocate here and say basilisks.

Ap -3 is the difference between having a save and not having a save against many of your ideal targets

In what has been in my experience the most alpha strikey edition of 40K ever having redundancy is key so saving 40 points per vehicle is an extra meat shield screen per tank or it's a buy 3 get one free.

Finally, consider it is not double the number of shots. Your average shots on a manticore is 7 and your average shots on a basilisk is 5. Paying 40 points for 2 extra shots with less AP doesn't sell me on manticores.

The rules must be quite different in the codex, compared to the index. Average for the Bassie is closer to 3.5, is it not?

Given that with a Manticore, you have options to reroll one of the dice, my expectation would be that you wind up with a better overall value, than you would with a Bassie.

For example, Manticore rolls a 2 and a 5. Obviously, you keep the 5 and reroll the 2, hoping for better. You can spend your CP / ability to reroll shot value more specifically. A Bassie rolls a 2 for shot number, you then take your chance and reroll hoping for better. The Manticore has a degree of reliability in the distribution of 2 dice being rolled that you'll almost never have a "BAD" round of shooting.

Again, stacking damage up front in a vicious way would be the most effective means to prevent damage back, and thus allow you to more easily destroy your opponent.

Your enemy can not launch a bomb, if you disable his hand.

Also, I believe the AP difference is 1 point... I wouldn't consider it a valuable trade-off compared to extra wounding opportunities. Again, front-loading damage is a legitimate strategy. You can generate more potential wounds, and thus more saves, to offset the less likely chance to create a casualty.

Basilisks roll two dice and take the highest value for their number of shots. This is the same in the index and codex.

You also only get to reroll a die on the manticore if you are catachan. If we are factoring doctrines in I would much rather have the basilisk since I can make it Cadian and get free reroll 1's or even full rerolls against chaos with their relic.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The rules must be quite different in the codex, compared to the index. Average for the Bassie is closer to 3.5, is it not?

It's roll two, take highest. I just did the maths, and the average number of shots that gives is 4.472'

Perhaps most significantly though, you only have a 1/36 chance of only getting one shot, which is pretty great.

My bad, didn't look that close at the Bassie.

Manticore has a 1/36 chance to get. 2. Hits.

Manticore has a 26/36 = 72% to score 6 *OR MORE* shots, without rerolls, while the Bassie has a [1- (5/6 x 5/6)] = 31% to score a 6.

Even with the "pick the best" the Manticore is still the clear-cut winner in terms of shots / damage output. If you think about it, the Bassie is roll two dice, discard the lowest, where the Manticore is roll two dice and add them. No matter what, you'll always have rolled better with the Manticore, because you always add the lower die, instead of discarding it.

There isn't a way that the Bassie outputs more damage in the first 3 turns than the Manticore does, and that's what matters at the competitive edge of the game. Funsies? Sure, but there's no real question when the rubber hits the road. Manticore is the better unit for the points. The potential to damage spike upwards on the first turn, alone, is worth the extra points.

Alpha damage and board control are the ways IG win the game, and they're damned good at it.

You guys are wrong. You can't simply look at 1 bassie vs 1 manticore and say "well the manticore deals more damage so it's better!" Yeah, and 1 baneblade deals more damage than 1 manticore too. That doesn't make it more competitive. You're not taking cost into account.

You have to look at the ratio of how much damage on average does a manticore do vs how much a basilisk does and compare it to the ratio of manticore cost vs basilisk cost.

Does a manticore do more damage? Absolutely. But not enough to justify its cost. I would've sided with the manticore before chapter approved, but after the point increase, basilisks do somewhere between 10-20% more damage per point cost vs all vehicles (ideal targets). And that's even ignoring the ammo limit. It's looking at a single round of shooting. You gotta realise 3 manticores will buy you almost 4 basilisks.

I did the mathhammer on a napkin somewhere but I don't have it with me right now.

I did the maths!

Basilisk Vs T7 3+ save:
2.6W, or 42pts/W

Basilisk Vs T8 2+ save:
2.1W, or 51pts/W

Manticore Vs T7 3+ save:
3.1W, or 46pts/W

Manticore Vs T8 2+ save:
2.3W, or 62pts/W

Basilisk wins against both targets. It's close Vs a 3+ save, but this is based on 1 rounds of shooting. Basilisk has the potential to do up to 2 more rounds of shooting over the Manticore, so is the winner.

In reality it's not as cut and dry. You might have a situation where you have the points to spare for a Manticore, so might as well!

Stux, what happens when you calculate both with Catachan doctrine?

Basilisk vs. Manticore???? Why not Basilisk AND Manticore?

More artillery is a good thing.....running 2 of each is nice

Riggs wrote:
Stux, what happens when you calculate both with Catachan doctrine?

That's really complicated. What is your threshold for rerolling a die? Do you just reroll 1s and 2s? Or do you try to high roll at the risk of lowering your shots and reroll 3s and 4s too? Entirely on the user and how many shots they feel are a minimum for the given attack. I feel like won't reroll 3s even though statistically it gives the higher average, so as to lower the chance of dropping shots.

Basilisk is much easier in that sense, as you always reroll the lower number. This will take some crunching in a spreadsheet I can't do right now. But it will significantly increase the chance of the Basilisk getting a full 6 shots.

A Catachan basilisk averages 4,96 shots, a Catachan Manticore ideally averages 8,24. This translates to:


Basilisk Vs T7 3+ save:
2.72W, or 40pts/W

Basilisk Vs T8 2+ save:
2.16W, or 50pts/W

Manticore Vs T7 3+ save:
3.6W, or 40pts/W

Manticore Vs T8 2+ save:
2.7W, or 52pts/W

So, for Catachans they are equal choices mathwise, but manticores tend to be better because you want as less arty as possible, since the number of good spots out of LOS is limited.

Spoletta wrote:
A Catachan basilisk averages 4,96 shots, a Catachan Manticore ideally averages 8,24. This translates to:


Basilisk Vs T7 3+ save:
2.72W, or 40pts/W

Basilisk Vs T8 2+ save:
2.16W, or 50pts/W

Manticore Vs T7 3+ save:
3.6W, or 40pts/W

Manticore Vs T8 2+ save:
2.7W, or 52pts/W

So, for Catachans they are equal choices mathwise, but manticores tend to be better because you want as less arty as possible, since the number of good spots out of LOS is limited.

Nice work!

I should probably note for anyone skimming the thread, even though it was me that set the targets for comparison, that there is no difference between T7 and T8 for these weapons, as they both exceed but do not double both those toughnesses. It's all about what armour save you're against, as the Basilisk has superior AP. So Russ is as good a target as a Chimera in terms of number of wounds inflicted.

On the last point there, that is a valid stance but conversely points spent on basilisks translates to more wounds so your artillery is more durable... IF you can fit them all behind LoS blocking terrain still.

Could you do the mathhammer against T4 3+ and show how many models are removed as well? I am deciding if I want a giant blob of Berzerkers or smaller units inside Rhinos and those long range artillery are the one thing sticking out as the deciding factor in my head.

Basilisk Vs T4, 3+
Kills 1.6 models

Manticore Vs T4 3+
Kills 1.9 models

That is without doctrines.

Power armour shouldn't be worrying too much about artillery. If they're shooting at your marines instead of your tanks/big guys then that is a win for you. The transport will help you get up the board faster though, and it's Plasma they should really be worrying about which a Rhino does an OK job absorbing.

Not to hijack this thread, but I'm in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation lol. My army is 99% infantry with beasts and cultists as the screen and one measly Blood Slaughterer as the only viable anti-tank target*. With the way ITC missions are evolving I'm not worried about running the Berzerkers up the field and want to run them in a blob of 20. If I take Rhinos I would drop them down to 5 man units which end up even more expensive point-wise. SO I guess it comes down to what I am worried about more: drop-plasma or artillery, which I believe Imperial Guard can do both of?

Yeah they can!

Tempestus command squad can take a load of Plasma and deep strike in, and you can stick regular command squads or Special Weapon squads in Chimeras too.

I can't comment on meta too much though, I have no idea what is typical for a tournament list at the moment, especially since conscript nerfs.

Spoletta wrote:
A Catachan basilisk averages 4,96 shots, a Catachan Manticore ideally averages 8,24. This translates to:


Basilisk Vs T7 3+ save:
2.72W, or 40pts/W

Basilisk Vs T8 2+ save:
2.16W, or 50pts/W

Manticore Vs T7 3+ save:
3.6W, or 40pts/W

Manticore Vs T8 2+ save:
2.7W, or 52pts/W

So, for Catachans they are equal choices mathwise, but manticores tend to be better because you want as less arty as possible, since the number of good spots out of LOS is limited.

I would also consider re-rolls of 1, since they're going to have Harker [or be Cadian], and potentially Overlapping Fields of Fire [Cadian].

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
A Catachan basilisk averages 4,96 shots, a Catachan Manticore ideally averages 8,24. This translates to:


Basilisk Vs T7 3+ save:
2.72W, or 40pts/W

Basilisk Vs T8 2+ save:
2.16W, or 50pts/W

Manticore Vs T7 3+ save:
3.6W, or 40pts/W

Manticore Vs T8 2+ save:
2.7W, or 52pts/W

So, for Catachans they are equal choices mathwise, but manticores tend to be better because you want as less arty as possible, since the number of good spots out of LOS is limited.

I would also consider re-rolls of 1, since they're going to have Harker [or be Cadian], and potentially Overlapping Fields of Fire [Cadian].

Reroll 1s increases damage by 16% for BS4+. Affects both tanks equally so won't differentiate them at all. Having more or less shots doesn't affect how a reroll impacts average damage.

Well that was Catachan math, so i find it hard for them to be Cadian. Anyway, here's your order, catachan arty sprinkled with RR1.

Basilisk Vs T7 3+ save:
3.17W, or 34pts/W

Basilisk Vs T8 2+ save:
2.52W, or 43pts/W

Manticore Vs T7 3+ save:
4,2W, or 34pts/W

Manticore Vs T8 2+ save:
3,15W, or 45pts/W

It's also important to remember that the Basilisk looks slightly cooler

Stux wrote:

On the last point there, that is a valid stance but conversely points spent on basilisks translates to more wounds so your artillery is more durable... IF you can fit them all behind LoS blocking terrain still.

And towards that, the Basilisk's horizontal footprint is larger than the Manticore; the footplate sticks back, and the gun stretches out far enough to make hiding more than one behind a bought bastion a bit of a challenge in some map layouts. I've tried

Manticores all the way here with Cadian +1 to hit strat with reroll 1s doctrine. My mirror match player at the moment is Catachan, and so far the extra 2~ hits has made enough of a difference