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It seems Reapers are universally considered a no-brainer choice for Eldar, which combined with their decent stratagems and powers, makes them a bit more powerful than their points cost should be.
Rather than making the 50+ppm, I'd like to propose a few changes with a slight points bump.

First, I would drop the special "always hits on 3+" rule. It just doesn't make sense to not be affected no matter what.
I would make Reapers have natural BS2+ like Crimson Hunters. Before you object, hear me out:

Crimson Hunter have to move with their Heavy weapons. That means they hit on 3+. Because re-roll happen before modifiers, this means Guide only allows them to re-roll 1s, as 2s naturally hit before modifiers.
This would make common tactics like embarking in a Serpent or Dropping out of the Webway less appealing as you are considered as moving in those cases. In these situations, Guide is only as affective as having an Autarch nearby.

The Second change I would make is to limit unit size to 3min-5max. This would further limit stacking special rules and stratagems. No more 10-man unit Forewarning

Finally, I would bump the base cost of the Reaper from 5ppm, to 13ppm. This combined with the 22ppm launcher would make the 35ppm total

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So the final result is a 35ppm unit that can only have 5 models as max (the number of models in the box), thereby making less efficient use of stratagems and psychic powers that can still be affected by -1 to hit modifiers.

Thoughts?

I'd leave them at BS3+ and make them ignore move-and-fire instead. I know that'd make Guide slightly better on them, but capping the squad at 5 models should keep that from making too much difference and you don't get to hit on 2+ against people who aren't bringing penalties to hit.

Yeah maybe you are right.
So make their unit special rule be "ignores firing heavies while moving"
Max unit size = 5 and points bump to 35ppm.

They should still be playable without being a no-brainer

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 Galef wrote:
Yeah maybe you are right.
So make their unit special rule be "ignores firing heavies while moving"
Max unit size = 5 and points bump to 35ppm.

They should still be playable without being a no-brainer

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That would be a good place to start.

I think the problem with this portion of the forum is that its target audience is people who wouldn't abuse them anyway?

Obviously if you have people in your gaming group willing to "fix" Dark Reapers for play (because honestly GW isn't going to read this forum and magically fix them according to what people discuss here), then you already have players willing not to spam them.

I own two squads of six Dark Reapers (five and an Exarch). I've taken two squads of three in a single game, and routinely take one squad of 5-6 in a normal game. I wouldn't even consider buying more. Because they're just strong enough that spamming them would make me a douchebag. Solution? Don't take bloody hundreds of them.

So, I don't personally need to "fix" Dark Reapers because while strong a few small units of them does not ruin the games I play. I would think the same of anyone who would agree on the surface to fix Dark Reapers for local play. The easiest fix? Don't spam them like a douchebag.

Are the majority of conversations on this portion of the forum hypothetical or just for discussion's sake? How often do people actually implement the rules changes we discuss here --- and more importantly how often are the rules changes (house rules) put into effect in an actual game with other players?

I don't disagree that GW will probably tack on some points to the Dark Reapers and that's fair. But even a 5-8 point bump would barely change army composition for people who are running 10 squads of them in an army. You'd just be facing nine.

I'm always a fan of house rules, but I find the best house rule is always: don't be a dick.

We seek consensus. Hopefully GW will understand consensus when it comes time to balance in chapter approved.

They have 1 more chance from me - if this next chapter approved does not fix the major issues in the game I'm just going to stop wasting my time with GW altogether. Straight up. As you can see - it's not that hard. Galef alone could probably fix the game in a week - hes got a lot of good ideas and is reasonable. Unlike GW.

Thanx Xenomancers, that means a lot.

 Galef wrote:
Yeah maybe you are right.
So make their unit special rule be "ignores firing heavies while moving"
Max unit size = 5 and points bump to 35ppm.

They should still be playable without being a no-brainer

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That feels agreeable. It lets them retain their own brand of eldar "mobility" by repositioning and shooting, but people don't feel like their special to-hit penalty rules are being ignored. At 35 PPM, they're still a solid choice this edition. Leaving their BS at 3+ avoids complaints about them being BS 2+ and allows them to synergize more reliably with our various buffs. Lowering the max squad size mitigates buff stacking and possibly makes them feel less durable (even though spreading your bodies out across multiple squads generally makes them harder to take out.) People will feel better about killing off a 5th of the squad each time they get a kill.

I'm always worried people will either take away all semblance of special rules (thus leaving them feeling un-aspecty) or price them back up to being unusable as per previous editions, but I think we've found a good middle ground.

While we're on the topic, could we revisit the exarch's special rule? Reroll to-hit rolls is redundant with Maugan's aura and the Path of Command. Perhaps, with the other suggested changes in mind, an exarch could grant his unit +1 to hit units with the Flyer battle field role? So you can still hide from reapers by being camouflaged or psychically shrouded or whatever, but the exarch's rangefinder will hand out firing solutions to his unit as they take out that low-flying storm raven. Or something else entirely.

Wyldhunt wrote:
While we're on the topic, could we revisit the exarch's special rule? Reroll to-hit rolls is redundant with Maugan's aura and the Path of Command. Perhaps, with the other suggested changes in mind, an exarch could grant his unit +1 to hit units with the Flyer battle field role? So you can still hide from reapers by being camouflaged or psychically shrouded or whatever, but the exarch's rangefinder will hand out firing solutions to his unit as they take out that low-flying storm raven. Or something else entirely.

I like where you are going with this, however I feel like handing out a rule to the whole unit might push then back into OP territory.

I think we could probably just leave the rule for the Exarch only, in which case, I would make it re-roll to wound rolls against units with the Fly rule.
Just like the Crimson Hunters.

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I'd be fine of they fixed inescapable accuracy to just ignore penalties to moving and keep their reaper launcher profile to just Str.5 -2 1dmg. They can pay to upgrade to a EML. Tempest launcher should just be D6 shots.

So LVO results are in a Reaper spam definitely had an affect.

I still feel that my fixes can work:
-'Inescapable Accuracy' should be "ignores -1 to hit for Heavy weapons", not always hits on 3+
-Max unit size should be 5, not 10
-Base cost of Reaper should be 8-10ppm so that once the launcher is added, they are 30-32ppm

Not ignoring all penalties to hit and not being able to affect more than 5 models with a single buff should more than compensate for the points cost.
It should make buffs like Guide, Forewarning and Soulburst much less effective, yet keep the unit playable and comparable to units like Fire Prisms and Missile Launcher War Walkers.

These are changes I'd expect to happen in the next Chapter Approved. And honestly that change cannot happen soon enough. I don't personally like Reapers, but the pressure to use them is definitely there.
The sooner that pressure is gone (because they got nerfed a bit) the better.

My hope, however, is that they don't become useless overnight because of an over-nerf. If Chapter Approved goes any further than what I have suggested above, I'll consider it an over-nerf.

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A marine with a missile launcher is 38. Even with your changes, dark reapers are a 40 ppm model because their ammo is better. 200 points for 5 heavy weapons is standard in elite lists.

The problem with Reapers is that people take them for the always 3+ rule. It's a hard counter to all these -1 to hit shenagians and probably the only reason people have picked up these traditionally disliked models. You could bump it up to always hitting on a 4+, but remove the rule and they'll go right back on the shelf.

They take them because they are undercosted. If you want the current rules, they are 50 ppm.

 Galef wrote:
So LVO results are in a Reaper spam definitely had an affect.

I still feel that my fixes can work:
-'Inescapable Accuracy' should be "ignores -1 to hit for Heavy weapons", not always hits on 3+
-Max unit size should be 5, not 10
-Base cost of Reaper should be 8-10ppm so that once the launcher is added, they are 30-32ppm

Not ignoring all penalties to hit and not being able to affect more than 5 models with a single buff should more than compensate for the points cost.
It should make buffs like Guide, Forewarning and Soulburst much less effective, yet keep the unit playable and comparable to units like Fire Prisms and Missile Launcher War Walkers.

These are changes I'd expect to happen in the next Chapter Approved. And honestly that change cannot happen soon enough. I don't personally like Reapers, but the pressure to use them is definitely there.
The sooner that pressure is gone (because they got nerfed a bit) the better.

My hope, however, is that they don't become useless overnight because of an over-nerf. If Chapter Approved goes any further than what I have suggested above, I'll consider it an over-nerf.

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If I were to make a proposal, if inescapable accuracy was revised so:

"The Ballistic Skill of models in this unit cannot be modified below 4+ when firing a ranged weapon (although they still only hit on rolls of 6 when firing Overwatch)."

It would pose a relative soft revision to the ability while not overly nerfing them. This would mean that Dark Reapers would be prone to -1 hit modifiers max, regardless of the source of the negative modifier (moving and firing heavy weapon, -hit from dark shroud, etc).

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The problem with Reapers is that people take them for the always 3+ rule. It's a hard counter to all these -1 to hit shenagians and probably the only reason people have picked up these traditionally disliked models. You could bump it up to always hitting on a 4+, but remove the rule and they'll go right back on the shelf.

They're quite good even without Inescapable Accuracy. They'd be worse, yes, but they're too good right now, so they SHOULD be worse.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
The problem with Reapers is that people take them for the always 3+ rule. It's a hard counter to all these -1 to hit shenagians and probably the only reason people have picked up these traditionally disliked models. You could bump it up to always hitting on a 4+, but remove the rule and they'll go right back on the shelf.

Which is why I am not suggesting to remove the rule, but rather alter it.

How about making "Inescapable Accuracy" read as follows: "Models with this rule never suffer more than -1 to hit regardless of multiple modifiers"
So if they move - 4+ to hit
If thy shoot a 'hard to hit' unit - 4+ to hit
If they moved AND are shooting a target with -1 - still 4+ to hit

So modifiers to hit still affect them, just not multiple modifiers

@Martel: I understand your point of view on this, but I feel that your suggestion (plus the general difficulty at obtaining actual Reaper models atm) would pretty much delete Reapers from competitive lists entirely (which is clearly what you want to happen). I know you will disagree, but 40-50ppm for a T3 model is just too egregious no matter how well that compares to the Marine equivalents. Bottom line is that Marines with ML are too expensive themselves, why should Reapers be as well?

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So my thoughts. I'm a 2nd edition guy. I don't like rules that change the fluff too much. Basic Tactical Marines rules and fluff have been constant.

Why not elder.

Reapers were always a unit of 3 to 7.

So a max unit of 7 seems nice....Same with Shining Spears/Warp Spiders, but enough of that. (BTW Dire Avengers should be like 15max with this line of thought)

The Reaper Ranger Finder made it so that Reapers could always hit units more reliable than other heavies.

If you take the move an fire away....IN Game they will just stand still.

If you take the 3+ away...IN Game it wont be any different than most units shooting at an Alaitoc unit...Reapers would have the same actual results as everyone else.

If you Increase the points too much. Devestator ML Marines will just take 2 or 3 'ablative' base marines to make their 33 point models outlive Reapers. 5 points is too low granted. 7 would be a good starting number as a base....maybe 8 if you consider Fire Dragons.

 admironheart wrote:
So my thoughts. I'm a 2nd edition guy. I don't like rules that change the fluff too much. Basic Tactical Marines rules and fluff have been constant.

Why not elder.

Reapers were always a unit of 3 to 7.

So a max unit of 7 seems nice....Same with Shining Spears/Warp Spiders, but enough of that. (BTW Dire Avengers should be like 15max with this line of thought)

The Reaper Ranger Finder made it so that Reapers could always hit units more reliable than other heavies.

If you take the move an fire away....IN Game they will just stand still.

If you take the 3+ away...IN Game it wont be any different than most units shooting at an Alaitoc unit...Reapers would have the same actual results as everyone else.

If you Increase the points too much. Devestator ML Marines will just take 2 or 3 'ablative' base marines to make their 33 point models outlive Reapers. 5 points is too low granted. 7 would be a good starting number as a base....maybe 8 if you consider Fire Dragons.

I'd love GW to start reusing those odd unit max number, but alas, they seem dead set on using 5s and 10s

I also think you bring up another interesting difference between Reapers and Devastators: Ablative wounds. Reapers do not have this option. I'd live to just take a Reaper or 2 with just a shuriken catapult to absorb casualties. GW seems to also like to price things up that can take different options. Devs have several different weapon options. Reapers (aside from the Exarch) only have 1 weapon option
The fact that the 1 weapon option is better than all the possible options a Dev unit can take is irrelevant (to GW), thus Devs will always be more expensive.
I am not saying it should be like this, I am just saying that it like this and should NOT be a factor when trying to balance a unit.

GW over-values Devs, they need to be cheaper. Therfore, you should not use them as a base cost measurement for Reapers.

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Assuming these rules changes don't happen, and GW publishes a point value fix, what do you think that looks like? As I said, that needs to be 45ppm at least, pushing 50ppm for all their bells and whistles.

"Bottom line is that Marines with ML are too expensive themselves, why should Reapers be as well?"

Marines are too expensive period. So if we balance around dark reapers and guardsmen, 80% of the units in the game become worthless. The opposite of what 8th is trying to achieve. Your suggestions are still undercosting this unit when compared to all possible alternatives in other armies. Stop it.

Putting it bluntly?

They need to lose their "always hit on a 3+" thing and they need to lose it hard. The Reaper Rangefinders, as showcased a few editions ago, were there to help the Dark Reapers keep a target lock on otherwise hard to hit targets.

I'm not opposed to giving them some kind of rule where the more shots they put on target, the more accurate they get--but ideally, the Reaper Rangefinders would only be boosting them up against anything that gets a "Hard to Hit" bonus.

@Kanluwen: I agree. The always hit on 3+ is the biggest problem.

@Martel: If GW does nothing other than change the points cost, Reapers need to be 35ppm as they are, maybe MAYBE 40ppm, and the Tempest launcher needs to be about 5ppm more expensive for the Exarch as well. That pushes the points cost over 105pts for a min unit that is only 3 T3 models.
My fear is that if this happens, Reapers will instantly be considered garbage because now Fire prisms and WWs can put out similar damage for the same cost, but are WAAAAAAAY more durable.

The sad thing is that GW is likely to make Reapers 45-50ppm since they apparently have no intentions to make plastic Aspect warriors in the near future, so why make an incentive for players to seek out other non-GW options, like eBay?

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I don't have the Eldar book, but do they still pay for the heavier missiles?

If they don't pay for the Starstrike, maybe they should have to.

 Galef wrote:
@Kanluwen: I agree. The always hit on 3+ is the biggest problem.

@Martel: If GW does nothing other than change the points cost, Reapers need to be 35ppm as they are, and the Tempest launcher needs to be about 5ppm more expensive for the Exarch as well. That pushes the points cost over 105pts for a min unit that is only 3 T3 models.

Too cheap for what they can do. You lack the outside perspective of facing off against these things. T3 doesn't much matter when you have a 2+ rerollable.

 Galef wrote:
Reapers will instantly be considered garbage because now Fire prisms and WWs can put out similar damage for the same cost, but are WAAAAAAAY more durable.

So what is it about single high T, high W model vs multiple models whose sum of fractions more or less equal the high T, high W single model? Most of the armies' units function in that way.

A single high W, high T model deals better with smaller firearms but more susceptible to good high D shots.
Multiple individual low W, low T models mitigate high D weapons better but generally more susceptible to small firearms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
How about making "Inescapable Accuracy" read as follows: "Models with this rule never suffer more than -1 to hit regardless of multiple modifiers"
So if they move - 4+ to hit
If thy shoot a 'hard to hit' unit - 4+ to hit
If they moved AND are shooting a target with -1 - still 4+ to hit

So modifiers to hit still affect them, just not multiple modifiers

And I demand a quote for this. This is paraphrasing my post.

Martel732 wrote:
T3 doesn't much matter when you have a 2+ rerollable.

What cheaters have you been playing? Nothing in the Eldar codex can get a 2+ rerollable save. Sure Reapers can sit in cover and/or have Protect, but at that point, why are you shooting them with bolters? Wouldn't plasma or even good ole heavy bolters be better?
The only thing that gives rerolls on saves is a CP for only 1 reroll. Hardly game-breaking.

My "fix" to lower unit size would actually go a long way to minimize the ability to buff a lot of Reapers at once. 5 Reapers at 35ppm would be 175pts, roughly equal to 1 Fire Prism or 2 WWs with MLs.

 skchsan wrote:

 Galef wrote:
How about making "Inescapable Accuracy" read as follows: "Models with this rule never suffer more than -1 to hit regardless of multiple modifiers"
So if they move - 4+ to hit
If thy shoot a 'hard to hit' unit - 4+ to hit
If they moved AND are shooting a target with -1 - still 4+ to hit

So modifiers to hit still affect them, just not multiple modifiers

And I demand a quote for this. This is paraphrasing my post.

Noted, although to be fair, I was typing this before your post was up, so I guess great minds think alike.

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In cover with fortune. And all my plasma is already dead. Because Dark Reapers. They kill too quickly for their cost and are too hard to remove.

Martel732 wrote:
They take them because they are undercosted. If you want the current rules, they are 50 ppm.

I agree - between 45-50. I think at 50 they would be unplayable but at 45 they would be about as good as devastators per point (which are a playable but not OP unit).

Martel732 wrote:
In cover with fortune. And all my plasma is already dead. Because Dark Reapers. They kill too quickly for their cost and are too hard to remove.

Fortune is a 5+ "FNP" roll now, NOT a rerollable save. If you make the max unit size 5, than only 5 Reapers will have that, meaning you kill the unit of Reapers that ISN"T buffed. Add that with a points increase, and we have a balanced unit.

Just upping the points cost alone with NOT balance them. It makes them a suicide unit that is really good for about a turn.

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I guess I should have had him look that up. You can understand why I believed him, though. They still have easy access to 2+ and FNP 5+. T3 is moot at that point.