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Did the Eldar creating Slaanesh cause Chaos to lose at Terra?

The situation prior to the birth of Slaanesh – warp storms isolate Terra – the Emperor is basically stuck there; no Crusade could be successful. Then the Eldar fall, which creates Slaanesh, which blows the storms away from Terra and elsewhere, allowing the Great Crusade to happen and mankind to get to the verge of conquering the galaxy and the Emperor to have the ability to work on his great project beneath Terra. Slaanesh’s birth allows the Emperor to become a threat to Chaos instead of a fly in a bottle.

Slaanesh corrupts the Emperor’s Children legion. At the battle of Terra, the Emperor’s Children bore of the attack on the palace and go off on their own to terrorize the populace. If they had been more disciplined or turned by a god other than Slaanesh, perhaps they would have stayed and the traitors would have been able to crack the palace sooner. Without the same time crunch, Horus’ gamble on the Vengeful Spirit would not have been necessary. Slaanesh’s main contribution – turning the Emperor’s Children – leads to the Chaos plan falling apart at a critical juncture.

Now here’s the real kicker – is it possible that some Eldar, gifted with great foresight, saw these possible timelines and deliberately led the Eldar down the paths of excess that led to the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh? Did they deliberately manipulate the creation of the Chaos god of masochism and self-destruction to sabotage Chaos?

   
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 sonsoftaurus wrote:
Did the Eldar creating Slaanesh cause Chaos to lose at Terra?

The situation prior to the birth of Slaanesh – warp storms isolate Terra – the Emperor is basically stuck there; no Crusade could be successful. Then the Eldar fall, which creates Slaanesh, which blows the storms away from Terra and elsewhere, allowing the Great Crusade to happen and mankind to get to the verge of conquering the galaxy and the Emperor to have the ability to work on his great project beneath Terra. Slaanesh’s birth allows the Emperor to become a threat to Chaos instead of a fly in a bottle.

Slaanesh corrupts the Emperor’s Children legion. At the battle of Terra, the Emperor’s Children bore of the attack on the palace and go off on their own to terrorize the populace. If they had been more disciplined or turned by a god other than Slaanesh, perhaps they would have stayed and the traitors would have been able to crack the palace sooner. Without the same time crunch, Horus’ gamble on the Vengeful Spirit would not have been necessary. Slaanesh’s main contribution – turning the Emperor’s Children – leads to the Chaos plan falling apart at a critical juncture.

Now here’s the real kicker – is it possible that some Eldar, gifted with great foresight, saw these possible timelines and deliberately led the Eldar down the paths of excess that led to the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh? Did they deliberately manipulate the creation of the Chaos god of masochism and self-destruction to sabotage Chaos?


Intresting but it also was true the Emparors children kinda where useless at points during battle.

However it's also true. Bar petarbo, and a few others he did not exactly have cream of the crop for assaulting the Palace.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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I thought Slaanesh's birth is what caused those warp storms. Could be wrong there. Also, I cannot imagine the Eldar would ever consider sacrificing about 95% of their race for pretty much anything, even for their own sake.

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If the chaos gods actually wanted a win, yep, but they didn't, Horus is referred to as the great sacrifice after all, if the cabals future is to be believed then a Horus win would have ended there ability to affect our galaxy, an emperor total win would end in the legions being wiped out eventually and a loss for the gods too, since they would not be able to affect humanity from that point onwards, so a crippled imperium that degenerated into superstition and stagnated is the best result for them.
   
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 jhe90 wrote:
 sonsoftaurus wrote:
Did the Eldar creating Slaanesh cause Chaos to lose at Terra?

The situation prior to the birth of Slaanesh – warp storms isolate Terra – the Emperor is basically stuck there; no Crusade could be successful. Then the Eldar fall, which creates Slaanesh, which blows the storms away from Terra and elsewhere, allowing the Great Crusade to happen and mankind to get to the verge of conquering the galaxy and the Emperor to have the ability to work on his great project beneath Terra. Slaanesh’s birth allows the Emperor to become a threat to Chaos instead of a fly in a bottle.

Slaanesh corrupts the Emperor’s Children legion. At the battle of Terra, the Emperor’s Children bore of the attack on the palace and go off on their own to terrorize the populace. If they had been more disciplined or turned by a god other than Slaanesh, perhaps they would have stayed and the traitors would have been able to crack the palace sooner. Without the same time crunch, Horus’ gamble on the Vengeful Spirit would not have been necessary. Slaanesh’s main contribution – turning the Emperor’s Children – leads to the Chaos plan falling apart at a critical juncture.

Now here’s the real kicker – is it possible that some Eldar, gifted with great foresight, saw these possible timelines and deliberately led the Eldar down the paths of excess that led to the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh? Did they deliberately manipulate the creation of the Chaos god of masochism and self-destruction to sabotage Chaos?


Intresting but it also was true the Emparors children kinda where useless at points during battle.

However it's also true. Bar petarbo, and a few others he did not exactly have cream of the crop for assaulting the Palace.



one of the HH novels (I wanna say vengeceful spirit) actually has Horus bemoaning this noting that, for the most part he's stuck with the broken primarchs.

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 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I thought Slaanesh's birth is what caused those warp storms. Could be wrong there. Also, I cannot imagine the Eldar would ever consider sacrificing about 95% of their race for pretty much anything, even for their own sake.


Yeah so for the OP's theory to work Slaanesh birth would have to had to continue past Heresy. And Emperor's plan of starting rebellion was always after crusade was done so if storms were there there would be no crusade and thus no rebellion either.

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 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I thought Slaanesh's birth is what caused those warp storms. Could be wrong there. Also, I cannot imagine the Eldar would ever consider sacrificing about 95% of their race for pretty much anything, even for their own sake.


This.
   
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 Formosa wrote:
If the chaos gods actually wanted a win, yep, but they didn't, Horus is referred to as the great sacrifice after all, if the cabals future is to be believed then a Horus win would have ended there ability to affect our galaxy, an emperor total win would end in the legions being wiped out eventually and a loss for the gods too, since they would not be able to affect humanity from that point onwards, so a crippled imperium that degenerated into superstition and stagnated is the best result for them.

^This.

Everything that happened on Terra was a 'just as planned'... really it was: Horus lost but the Imperium became an even more cynical, paranoid, totalitarianistic state that is now the perfect breading ground for corruption. If the EC were swayed by Slaanesh to pull away from the attack, it was done purposefully. Though as others have said, the warp storm was created by the birth of Slaanesh, so no Slaanesh did not screw over chaos (though I'm sure s/he would have liked that).

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 ChazSexington wrote:
 Vitali Advenil wrote:
I thought Slaanesh's birth is what caused those warp storms. Could be wrong there. Also, I cannot imagine the Eldar would ever consider sacrificing about 95% of their race for pretty much anything, even for their own sake.


This.

The Warp Storms building up was like a woman getting bigger through pregnancy and then they vanished with the actual birth.

The foresight theory makes no sense to me. Why sacrifice most of your race and shatter your empire to harm Chaos? The ancient Eldar could have just steered themselves towards a Path society or something like Exodites and been much better off while doing the same damage to Chaos.

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Interesting, and while I do agree with the theories that the Horus Heresy ended precisely as the Ruinous Powers intended, and the Eldar unknowingly screwed themselves over, the second point about factions of the Eldar orchestrating the birth of Slaanesh is quite similar to an idea I had as part of my Croneworld Eldar background story.

Basically, the idea is that in the centuries leading towards the Fall the Eldar would have had to be completely blind not to notice the gestation of another warp-god. Yes they turned completely insular near the end, but well before that such a supremely psychic race would have noticed.

So, what if the reason they let it continue was that they fatally misjudged the character of Slaanesh?

Think about it. It's a warp-god being birthed during a time of unprecedented peace, pleasure and prosperity for the eldar people. They're undisputed masters of the galaxy. Why would they have any reason to expect that this new warp-god would be malevolent?

It's my belief that the pre-Fall Eldar (or at least some of them) knew full-well that they were birthing a god, but were fully under the impression it would be the Eldar God of Peace.

Throw into this that Khaine had tried on a number of occasions to genocide the eldar, and alternately spent his time protecting and torturing the eldar and the rest of the pantheon. Suddenly the prophesy of birthing a new God of Peacetime that would murder Khaine sounds like a pretty solid idea.

However, these people would still be radicals, and unlikely to be in the majority. What they planned was the murder of one of their pantheon. An unthinkable act. Also, what if Khaine himself came to learn that mortals werre actively plotting his demise? The eldar would be ruined.

So, in secret, they plotted and planned and nudged the eldar towards their decadency. Until, at the moment of truth, the apotheosis of Slaanesh revealed the error in their thinking. Slaanesh wasn't a God of Peace, she was a God of Pleasure and Pain. The devolution of the eldar society had affected their judgement. When there is no distinction in people's mind's between pain and pleasure, only sensation, a God of Pleasure could be quite terrible indeed.

Just a neat idea, nowhere near official in any form, but served as a neat backstory to my Croneworlders. Those self-same priests and prophets who heralded Slaanesh into this world, trapped forever in torment, looking upon their plan gone horribly right for all eternity.

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BrianDavion wrote:

one of the HH novels (I wanna say vengeceful spirit) actually has Horus bemoaning this noting that, for the most part he's stuck with the broken primarchs.


I was always surprised he didn't make more of an effort to get the Khan on board. Given that he manipulated the Wolves into attacking his other favourite brother, Magnus, you'd think he'd have dedicated much more time and effort into bringing a non-chaos warped legion onto his side. That way, once the Emperor fell, he could have sicced Perturabo, Khan, Magnus, and Mortarion on Fulgrim, Angron, Lorgar and the rest and set himself up at the top in a far more stable fashion.


 
   
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I'd say that the Dark Powers won the Heresy, leaving the Imperium a twisted version of what it was supposed to be, a rotting corpse riven by war and the plotting of lesser men.
   
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 Ketara wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:

one of the HH novels (I wanna say vengeceful spirit) actually has Horus bemoaning this noting that, for the most part he's stuck with the broken primarchs.


I was always surprised he didn't make more of an effort to get the Khan on board. Given that he manipulated the Wolves into attacking his other favourite brother, Magnus, you'd think he'd have dedicated much more time and effort into bringing a non-chaos warped legion onto his side. That way, once the Emperor fell, he could have sicced Perturabo, Khan, Magnus, and Mortarion on Fulgrim, Angron, Lorgar and the rest and set himself up at the top in a far more stable fashion.


Lorgar probably had a vision and knew that the Khan wouldn't fall- that or Horus knew the Khan well enough to know he wouldn't turn.

Either way, I have a hard time seeing how Lorgar wasn't the most valuable of the lot- after all, he masterminded Angron's ascension to daemonhood.

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 Ketara wrote:

I was always surprised he didn't make more of an effort to get the Khan on board.

I agree, the writing of "Scars" is very poor in this regard. The book makes it clear that Khan feels closer to Horus than the Emperor. He is also close to Magnus and gets very suspicous when he learns what happened to the Thousand Sons. There is a contingent of White Scars who are sympathetic to Horus as they were due to be Luna Wolf recruits but got diverted to the White Scars instead.

In spite of all these factors, Horus messes up and sends Mortarion to try and recruit Khan (they don't get on) instead of going himself. The White Scars could have been brought to Horus's side quite easily and I find the story disappointing in that there is no compelling reason for them to join the Emperor other than Horus can't be bothered to go himself so send Mortarion who acts like a jerk.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/19 23:03:06


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 Karhedron wrote:
 Ketara wrote:

I was always surprised he didn't make more of an effort to get the Khan on board.

I agree, the writing of "Scars" is very poor in this regard. The book makes it clear that Khan feels closer to Horus than the Emperor. He is also close to Magnus and gets very suspicous when he learns what happened to the Thousand Sons. There is a contingent of White Scars who are sympathetic to Horus as they were due to be Luna Wolf recruits but got diverted to the White Scars instead.

In spite of all these factors, Horus messes up and sends Mortarion to try and recruit Khan (they don't get on) instead of going himself. The White Scars could have been brought to Horus's side quite easily and I find the story disappointing in that there is no compelling reason for them to join the Emperor other than Horus can't be bothered to go himself so send Mortarion who acts like a jerk.

What do you base this assumption on? Scars were one of the few (and perhaps the only one) legions who actually got an idea about what ruinous powers were. They would hardly ally with Horus or Lorgar, given how corrupted they already were at that point. On the contrary, sending Mortarion (who hated psykers) was the only chance of convincing Khan.
   
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BrianDavion wrote:
 jhe90 wrote:
 sonsoftaurus wrote:
Did the Eldar creating Slaanesh cause Chaos to lose at Terra?

The situation prior to the birth of Slaanesh – warp storms isolate Terra – the Emperor is basically stuck there; no Crusade could be successful. Then the Eldar fall, which creates Slaanesh, which blows the storms away from Terra and elsewhere, allowing the Great Crusade to happen and mankind to get to the verge of conquering the galaxy and the Emperor to have the ability to work on his great project beneath Terra. Slaanesh’s birth allows the Emperor to become a threat to Chaos instead of a fly in a bottle.

Slaanesh corrupts the Emperor’s Children legion. At the battle of Terra, the Emperor’s Children bore of the attack on the palace and go off on their own to terrorize the populace. If they had been more disciplined or turned by a god other than Slaanesh, perhaps they would have stayed and the traitors would have been able to crack the palace sooner. Without the same time crunch, Horus’ gamble on the Vengeful Spirit would not have been necessary. Slaanesh’s main contribution – turning the Emperor’s Children – leads to the Chaos plan falling apart at a critical juncture.

Now here’s the real kicker – is it possible that some Eldar, gifted with great foresight, saw these possible timelines and deliberately led the Eldar down the paths of excess that led to the Fall and the birth of Slaanesh? Did they deliberately manipulate the creation of the Chaos god of masochism and self-destruction to sabotage Chaos?


Intresting but it also was true the Emparors children kinda where useless at points during battle.

However it's also true. Bar petarbo, and a few others he did not exactly have cream of the crop for assaulting the Palace.



one of the HH novels (I wanna say vengeceful spirit) actually has Horus bemoaning this noting that, for the most part he's stuck with the broken primarchs.


Yeah.

Angron, cannot stick to plan, mess up Istavan 3 somewhat
Petarbo, seige master. Still has a functional, capable legion.
Logar, bar being obsessed with deamons, one of solid legions.
Kurze, good terror troops, kinda beyond saving.
Mortician, practical, boring but a solid infriantry legion
Horus, generally has a reliable legion. Had a brain. One of best of his lot
Magnus, immensely powerful, legion is nigh on destroyed though.
Alpha legion, get stuff done.
Fulham. Had one the best legions going, highly trained and effective. Reduced to mindless lot who cannot follow orders or see general sense.

Yeah... He had a up hill battle with his legions.



Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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Vojcek wrote:

What do you base this assumption on? Scars were one of the few (and perhaps the only one) legions who actually got an idea about what ruinous powers were. They would hardly ally with Horus or Lorgar, given how corrupted they already were at that point. On the contrary, sending Mortarion (who hated psykers) was the only chance of convincing Khan.


I think it would depend upon how Horus did it. The Khan was convinced that all thrones had collapse eventually, and he knew his father was something of a tyrant. He had a close connection with Horus, Magnus, and Vulkan. Given that Vulkan was off the playing field at that point in time and Magnus fragmented, Horus could have easily deployed that personal touch for which he was made Warmaster in the first place.

If he assured the Khan privately that the excesses of the Warp were simply a temporary price to be paid in bringing down their father, and that he, Magnus, Alpharius, Perty & Mortarion would set things right in that regard immediately afterwards? I think he would have swayed him. Fulgrim and Lorgar were only two legions after all, and not particularly martial after their warp excesses. Curze's boys were really quite poor marines when against stiff Astartes opposition, and would have been easily extinguished. Angron on the other hand would have been easily outplayed strategically, daemon prince or no.

I'm not unconvinced that that wasn't Horus' plan all along; he very much saw himself as his own master. I reckon if he'd beaten the Emperor, his next step would have been to try and curb the influence of the Chaos Gods as the next logical rival/power base to himself. It's the obvious reason for his alliance against the Emperor to start collapsing in the way the Cabal predicted. You would have seen the survivors of six legions combining against four of the remaining ones and wiping them out. And then you'd likely have Alpharius intriguing and stoking Perty and Morty to be jealous of how close the Khan was to Horus, and how Magnus was really just like the other witches, followed by another split down the middle, and all going down in fire and ruin.

I liked the White Scar books, Wraight is a good author. But I think he got tripped on his own (rather good) characterisation there. He portrayed them so strongly as outriders, who cared not who sat in the palace, that he seems to have missed giving them a compelling reason to stay loyal.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/20 00:23:41



 
   
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 jhe90 wrote:

Yeah... He had a up hill battle with his legions.




Emperor notes "almost as planned".

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 jhe90 wrote:

Alpha legion, get stuff done.




As an Alpha Legion player, the Alpha Legion got absolutely nothing of note done during the HH. You miiiiiiiiiiiiight argue they held the White Scars in position long enough to get Dorn's message, but most of the time they were hanging around in abandoned amusement parks and complaining about meddling kids.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 09:11:22


 
   
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They knocked the crap out of the Space Wolfs and sounded out the defenses of Terra.
   
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Nurglitch wrote:
They knocked the crap out of the Space Wolfs and sounded out the defenses of Terra.


If aimed at my comment, the Space Wolves (whom were massively outnumbered) kicked the Alpha Legion's ass, and the defences on Terra held, and costed the Alpha Legion a Primarch.
   
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So you admit the Alpha Legion managed to kill a Primarch!
   
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Nurglitch wrote:
So you admit the Alpha Legion managed to kill a Primarch!




As a XX fanboy I agree with chazsexington. AL got very little done during the heresy except killing other Alpha Legionairres. So much wasted potential.
   
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 Lotus Corgi wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
So you admit the Alpha Legion managed to kill a Primarch!




As a XX fanboy I agree with chazsexington. AL got very little done during the heresy except killing other Alpha Legionairres. So much wasted potential.


Did they not design some of thr early stratagy for dropsite massacre,

And the custom bolt shells for killing marines. Armour piercing ammunition used first during thr drop site massacre?

That's still somthing.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
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They screwed up the Raven Guard's super-marine project which probably had a pretty significant effect. Rather than having the Raven Guard basically pumping out tens of thousands of basically Primaris Marines into the heresy the Alpha Legion kept them just as crippled as they were when they were hit at Isstvan.

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The Alpha Legion also took Paramar, which was boring but strategically useful. They did lots of small(ish) useful things like this, but the real issue with the Alpha Legion was their fragmented nature, multiple motives and the fact they never really submitted to Horus and acted largely in their own way. Because of this, they also did lots of small(ish) things that really were not helpful, or even detrimental to the war effort. To an extent, this is true of most of the Traitor Legions, because they had elements that stayed loyal.


Personally, I think the Cabal spun a rather tall tale. Just about everything we know about scrying the future says that there are always multiple futures and paths that things could go down. Yet the Cabal only presented two to Alpharius? I smell a rat. I think they were trying to use him to take down humanity, because humanity was a xenocidal threat to such an alien federation. I think Chaos was sort of a smokescreen. If they wanted to take down Chaos, then supporting the Emperor, and allowing humanity to transition into it's full potential, would probably achieve the same goal much more successfully than if Horus won the Heresy. What is stopping the Chaos gods from stripping Horus of much of his power if he tries to rebel and make his own path? Once the galaxy was under the sway of Chaos, I sincerly doubt it would be extinguished through further civil war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 18:59:13


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 jhe90 wrote:
 Lotus Corgi wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
So you admit the Alpha Legion managed to kill a Primarch!




As a XX fanboy I agree with chazsexington. AL got very little done during the heresy except killing other Alpha Legionairres. So much wasted potential.


Did they not design some of thr early stratagy for dropsite massacre,

And the custom bolt shells for killing marines. Armour piercing ammunition used first during thr drop site massacre?

That's still somthing.



The Isstvan Beach Party is rumoured to be Alpharius' idea as it's got his pawprints all over it, but Banestrike ammo never saw wide use. IIRC, only the Sons of Horus and the Alpha Legion used it to any extent.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
They screwed up the Raven Guard's super-marine project which probably had a pretty significant effect. Rather than having the Raven Guard basically pumping out tens of thousands of basically Primaris Marines into the heresy the Alpha Legion kept them just as crippled as they were when they were hit at Isstvan.


But they also allowed that to happen in the first place when they let Corax escape. No Alpha Legion, and Corax gets turned into red mist by Angron.

 Haighus wrote:
The Alpha Legion also took Paramar, which was boring but strategically useful. They did lots of small(ish) useful things like this, but the real issue with the Alpha Legion was their fragmented nature, multiple motives and the fact they never really submitted to Horus and acted largely in their own way. Because of this, they also did lots of small(ish) things that really were not helpful, or even detrimental to the war effort. To an extent, this is true of most of the Traitor Legions, because they had elements that stayed loyal.


Personally, I think the Cabal spun a rather tall tale. Just about everything we know about scrying the future says that there are always multiple futures and paths that things could go down. Yet the Cabal only presented two to Alpharius? I smell a rat. I think they were trying to use him to take down humanity, because humanity was a xenocidal threat to such an alien federation. I think Chaos was sort of a smokescreen. If they wanted to take down Chaos, then supporting the Emperor, and allowing humanity to transition into it's full potential, would probably achieve the same goal much more successfully than if Horus won the Heresy. What is stopping the Chaos gods from stripping Horus of much of his power if he tries to rebel and make his own path? Once the galaxy was under the sway of Chaos, I sincerly doubt it would be extinguished through further civil war.


The whole Cabal thing is my least favourite thing about Legion. It should take more than 2 pages of convincing to turn on the Emperor.

I made a thread to continue the discussion, we're derailing.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/749168.page

   
 
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