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2018/01/18 05:17:31
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I have a question.
Tau Stealth Battlesuits have the ability to take a Homing Beacon, which lets a unit that is coming in via Manta Strike ignore the usual range limitations of having to come in a certain distance away from the enemy.
If a Stealth team ran right up to an enemy, and laid down a Homing Beacon very close, could a model coming in via Manta Strike come in within 1 inch of an enemy model? This would mean the Manta Striking unit would not be able to shoot, which would be a bad idea 99% of the time, but I want to know if it's possible.
The rules state that you can't move in the movement phase to within 1" of a model, but there are no such universal restrictions on deployment and reinforcements that I can see.
Thanks!
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2018/01/18 06:14:35
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Aizuwakamatsu, Fukushima, Japan
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I can't refer to them at the moment, but I think the Homing Beacon rules have their own limitations on functioning within 9" of the enemy. So while you couldn't get the deepstrikers to within 1", you could get them within 9".
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2018/01/18 06:26:13
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Chrysis wrote:I can't refer to them at the moment, but I think the Homing Beacon rules have their own limitations on functioning within 9" of the enemy. So while you couldn't get the deepstrikers to within 1", you could get them within 9".
The Homing Beacon, as far as I understand, is not destroyed by an enemy being within 9" of an enemy unit, like a Teleport Homer is. Looking at the Index, the rule is that it is destroyed if an enemy model "ends a move within 9" of it" which is very different than a Teleport Homer, which goes away "if an enemy model is ever within 9" of" it. This means that, by my understanding, you can actually lay down a Tau Homing Beacon within 9" of an enemy, and it will stay there until either it is consumed, or probably during his movement phase when a model "ends a move within 9" of it" at which point it is destroyed.
So, As far as I can tell, you can put a Homing Beacon within 9" of an enemy using your Stealth Suits, then use it, without it being destroyed by proximity, because unlike a Teleport Homer it is not proximity that destroys it, but an enemy model ending a move near it.
Therefore, the question of whether or not a deep striker is allowed to deep strike within 1" of an enemy unit is relevant.
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2018/01/18 08:30:28
Subject: Re:Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'
The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 08:30:49
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2018/01/18 09:30:21
Subject: Re:Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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mchammadad wrote:Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'
The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'
So the unit surely counts "as having moved in the movement phase" but I think this is different than "reinforcements are moves". I think that "counts as having moved in the movement phase" means for stuff like shooting heavy weapons and so on. It's not like the model actually moved, it was just set up. And that's all in the past tense. What do you think about that?
On top of that, some models like The Yncarne have specific rules that talk about setting them up as reinforcements anywhere (not forced to be 9" away), but say additionally it must be 1" away from enemy models. This extra level of specification for The Yncarne further makes me think that this might work. Thoughts?
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2018/01/18 09:46:15
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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You can't. Move is move. Unless you're charging/pile-in/consolidate, you cannot by any means be closer than 1" t any enemy unit
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AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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2018/01/18 09:47:23
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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When a unit deep-strikes it is considered to have “moved” it’s full movement distance, preventing it from moving any further in that movement phase.
Because no unit can end their “move” within 1” of an enemy unit (unless it is a charge move), you would not be able to deep strike a unit via the homer within 1” of an enemy due to it “moving”. (EDIT to add - A unit cannot come within 1” of an enemy unit at any point during their “move”)
Nothing stopping you from dropping them in 1.1”-8.9” away from the enemy unit though. Just means you a) Get to shoot, and b) take overwatch.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 09:49:01
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2018/01/18 09:51:06
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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I think you can only be within 1" if you Charge (or Pile In, Consolidate, etc.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 09:51:26
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/01/18 10:03:01
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Yea - the answer is no. You can't move within 1" of an enemy model unless you've declared a charge, have piled in or were the victim of a charge.
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2018/01/18 12:55:21
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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An Actual Englishman wrote:Yea - the answer is no. You can't move within 1" of an enemy model unless you've declared a charge, have piled in or were the victim of a charge.
Heroic Intervention!
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2018/01/18 13:08:02
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
A Place
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@OP You seem to be correct. There is nothing that I see the says you can't, so if within one inch of an enemy is also wholly within 6in of the beacon then looks like you could. I would advise talking to your opponent about it first though as this seems to be an oversight on the rules team's part.
I don't see how not being able to move within an inch of an enemy is relevant here, the only connection being 'things that deep strike count as having moved.' I don't think 'count as having moved' is the same as 'is a form of movement.'
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2018/01/18 18:45:14
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Norn Queen
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You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase. Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 18:45:25
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2018/01/18 19:17:34
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BaconCatBug wrote:You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.
Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.
Both of these things are true, but the question is, "is Manta Strike movement" which does not seem to be the case. Yes, you can't move within 1" of an enemy model, but Manta Strike, as far as I can tell, is not a form of movement.
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2018/01/18 19:21:32
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Norn Queen
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Blazinghand wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.
Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.
Both of these things are true, but the question is, "is Manta Strike movement" which does not seem to be the case. Yes, you can't move within 1" of an enemy model, but Manta Strike, as far as I can tell, is not a form of movement.
Page 177: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"
In order to prohibit moving "further", they have to have moved in the first place, otherwise it's a nonsensical sentence. Therefore, we can conclude that arriving as reinforces is movement.
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2018/01/18 20:01:33
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BaconCatBug wrote:Blazinghand wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.
Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.
Both of these things are true, but the question is, "is Manta Strike movement" which does not seem to be the case. Yes, you can't move within 1" of an enemy model, but Manta Strike, as far as I can tell, is not a form of movement.
Page 177: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"
In order to prohibit moving "further", they have to have moved in the first place, otherwise it's a nonsensical sentence. Therefore, we can conclude that arriving as reinforces is movement.
I don't that's entirely accurate. I notice there is a section there you didn't bold in yellow, perhaps because you realized it disproves your point? Let's bold that part, too:
Page 177: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"
So, according to your logic, "further" means that the thing must have happened, yes? Well, according to this sentence and your own logic then, the unit must have Advanced. And yet, to Advance would mean it can't shoot Heavy Weapons, shoots Assault weapons at -1, and can't Charge. If your logic held true, which IMO it does not, Deep Strikers must have Advanced. In order to prohibit Advancing "further", they have to have Advanced in the first place, otherwise it's a nonsensical sentence. Therefore we can conclude that arriving as reinforcements counts as an Advance... right?
No, obviously not. Clearly that's not what the sentence means, it just means you can't move or Advance after arriving via reinforcements. It's not implying you already moved and Advanced. And there's no logic that "further" only applies to "move" and not "Advance" so I think that we can safely say that your argument is not accurate. What do you think?
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2018/01/18 20:25:43
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Norn Queen
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No, because there is an "or" in the middle of that. I get you're upset you can't do this but the rules are clear.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 20:25:55
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2018/01/18 20:38:23
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BaconCatBug wrote:No, because there is an "or" in the middle of that. I get you're upset you can't do this but the rules are clear.
The "further" is right next to the "Advance" not the "move" so if anything it supports my conclusion. EDIT: What I mean to say is, if it were worded "cannot move further or Advance" you might be right, but instead it says "cannot move or Advance further" so I think that's pretty throughly debunked
Nice ad-hom, but I am not a Tau player, so this is not upsetting to me; however, I nonetheless think that my understanding of the rules are correct.
I suspect we will see a change in the wording of homing beacon so it goes away like a teleport homer does (that is to say, instantly) if within 9" of an enemy, when the Codex is released, for what it's worth. But I think the rules, as they are written, support my understanding.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 20:43:53
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2018/01/18 20:49:10
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Norn Queen
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Blazinghand wrote:The "further" is right next to the "Advance" not the "move" so if anything it supports my conclusion.
That's not how English grammar works. If I say "You may take apple or orange soda", that means you can take an apple soda or an orange soda. You are honestly arguing I meant you could take the metaphysical concept of "apple", because I didn't say "Apple soda or Orange soda".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 20:49:35
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2018/01/18 20:51:36
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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No, because you can not end your movement phase within 3 inches of an enemy model.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2018/01/18 20:52:07
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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BaconCatBug wrote:Blazinghand wrote:The "further" is right next to the "Advance" not the "move" so if anything it supports my conclusion.
That's not how English grammar works.
If I say "You may take apple or orange soda", that means you can take an apple soda or an orange soda. You are honestly arguing I meant you could take the metaphysical concept of "apple", because I didn't say "Apple soda or Orange soda".
So to be clear, your argument is that: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" means that it is 100% the case that they moved, and 0% the case that they Advanced?
1) the rule you're thinking of is 1 inch, not 3 inches
2) you can in fact end your movement phase within 1 inch of an enemy model, you just cannot MOVE to within 1 inch of an enemy model (so if you began in assault, you can do nothing and stay there if you wish)
3) I am arguing that Manta Strike is not movement
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 20:53:09
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2018/01/18 21:00:24
Subject: Re:Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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mchammadad wrote:Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'
The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'
^^^^This is the answer to your question and it is no.
I've bolded the parts that are particularly relevant to make it super, ultra, conclusively clear.
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2018/01/18 21:03:00
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Is manta strike done in the movement phase?
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2018/01/18 21:03:43
Subject: Re:Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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An Actual Englishman wrote:mchammadad wrote:Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'
The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model
Enemy Models
All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models
Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'
^^^^This is the answer to your question and it is no.
I've bolded the parts that are particularly relevant to make it super, ultra, conclusively clear.
The bolded part from the reinforcements is not actually what the rule says, which perhaps is why there are some miscommunications happening here. Take a look at the italicized part above. The rule says:
" Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. "
We should note that "Units... count as having moved" is not the same as "reinforcement is movement" and it's not even the same as "counts as moving"; it's the past tense. It says that, after the fact, that units count as having moved, not that reinforcement itself is actually movement. That being said, I think your interpretation is reasonable and likely how it should be played in actual games, even if that's not literally what the rules say.
EDIT:
yes, but the question is, "is arriving as reinforcements movement"
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/18 21:05:27
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2018/01/18 21:06:32
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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If you arrive in the movement phase from off the board, you have "moved onto the board." Meaning you did move. Manta strike is a movement just like deep strike is also a movement.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2018/01/18 21:20:21
Subject: Re:Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Yes, man. If a unit "counts as having moved" what else could it possibly mean? It's the same thing. You said it yourself - "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes". For all rules purposes.
We've seen other rules where it says you can't move within 1". I think it says somewhere (I can't be bothered to look rn, sorry) that if you for some unknown reason manage to finish your movement within 1" of an enemy model and you're not in combat with it, you need to immediately move out of 1" range.
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2018/01/18 21:22:20
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2018/01/18 21:26:08
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Norn Queen
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Backspacehacker wrote:Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge RaW this is correct.
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2018/01/18 21:27:26
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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BaconCatBug wrote: Backspacehacker wrote:Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge RaW this is correct.
Jesus just when I thought deep striking a daemon primarch could not get any stupider.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2018/01/18 21:46:40
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Backspacehacker wrote:Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge
RAW this is incorrect. Unit subjected to Warptime moves "as if it were its Movement phase" with all attendant rules and restrictions.
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2018/01/18 21:51:38
Subject: Can you use a Homing Beacon to Manta Strike within 1" of an enemy model?
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Oh well there we go.
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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