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I have a question.

Tau Stealth Battlesuits have the ability to take a Homing Beacon, which lets a unit that is coming in via Manta Strike ignore the usual range limitations of having to come in a certain distance away from the enemy.

If a Stealth team ran right up to an enemy, and laid down a Homing Beacon very close, could a model coming in via Manta Strike come in within 1 inch of an enemy model? This would mean the Manta Striking unit would not be able to shoot, which would be a bad idea 99% of the time, but I want to know if it's possible.

The rules state that you can't move in the movement phase to within 1" of a model, but there are no such universal restrictions on deployment and reinforcements that I can see.

Thanks!

I can't refer to them at the moment, but I think the Homing Beacon rules have their own limitations on functioning within 9" of the enemy. So while you couldn't get the deepstrikers to within 1", you could get them within 9".

Chrysis wrote:
I can't refer to them at the moment, but I think the Homing Beacon rules have their own limitations on functioning within 9" of the enemy. So while you couldn't get the deepstrikers to within 1", you could get them within 9".

The Homing Beacon, as far as I understand, is not destroyed by an enemy being within 9" of an enemy unit, like a Teleport Homer is. Looking at the Index, the rule is that it is destroyed if an enemy model "ends a move within 9" of it" which is very different than a Teleport Homer, which goes away "if an enemy model is ever within 9" of" it. This means that, by my understanding, you can actually lay down a Tau Homing Beacon within 9" of an enemy, and it will stay there until either it is consumed, or probably during his movement phase when a model "ends a move within 9" of it" at which point it is destroyed.

So, As far as I can tell, you can put a Homing Beacon within 9" of an enemy using your Stealth Suits, then use it, without it being destroyed by proximity, because unlike a Teleport Homer it is not proximity that destroys it, but an enemy model ending a move near it.

Therefore, the question of whether or not a deep striker is allowed to deep strike within 1" of an enemy unit is relevant.

Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'

The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model

Enemy Models

All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'

mchammadad wrote:
Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'

The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model

Enemy Models

All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'

So the unit surely counts "as having moved in the movement phase" but I think this is different than "reinforcements are moves". I think that "counts as having moved in the movement phase" means for stuff like shooting heavy weapons and so on. It's not like the model actually moved, it was just set up. And that's all in the past tense. What do you think about that?

On top of that, some models like The Yncarne have specific rules that talk about setting them up as reinforcements anywhere (not forced to be 9" away), but say additionally it must be 1" away from enemy models. This extra level of specification for The Yncarne further makes me think that this might work. Thoughts?

You can't. Move is move. Unless you're charging/pile-in/consolidate, you cannot by any means be closer than 1" t any enemy unit

When a unit deep-strikes it is considered to have “moved” it’s full movement distance, preventing it from moving any further in that movement phase.

Because no unit can end their “move” within 1” of an enemy unit (unless it is a charge move), you would not be able to deep strike a unit via the homer within 1” of an enemy due to it “moving”. (EDIT to add - A unit cannot come within 1” of an enemy unit at any point during their “move”)
Nothing stopping you from dropping them in 1.1”-8.9” away from the enemy unit though. Just means you a) Get to shoot, and b) take overwatch.

I think you can only be within 1" if you Charge (or Pile In, Consolidate, etc.)

Yea - the answer is no. You can't move within 1" of an enemy model unless you've declared a charge, have piled in or were the victim of a charge.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Yea - the answer is no. You can't move within 1" of an enemy model unless you've declared a charge, have piled in or were the victim of a charge.

Heroic Intervention!

@OP You seem to be correct. There is nothing that I see the says you can't, so if within one inch of an enemy is also wholly within 6in of the beacon then looks like you could. I would advise talking to your opponent about it first though as this seems to be an oversight on the rules team's part.

I don't see how not being able to move within an inch of an enemy is relevant here, the only connection being 'things that deep strike count as having moved.' I don't think 'count as having moved' is the same as 'is a form of movement.'

You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.

Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.

Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.

Both of these things are true, but the question is, "is Manta Strike movement" which does not seem to be the case. Yes, you can't move within 1" of an enemy model, but Manta Strike, as far as I can tell, is not a form of movement.

Blazinghand wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.

Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.

Both of these things are true, but the question is, "is Manta Strike movement" which does not seem to be the case. Yes, you can't move within 1" of an enemy model, but Manta Strike, as far as I can tell, is not a form of movement.

Page 177: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

In order to prohibit moving "further", they have to have moved in the first place, otherwise it's a nonsensical sentence. Therefore, we can conclude that arriving as reinforces is movement.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Blazinghand wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You cannot move within 1" of the enemy during the movement phase.

Manta Strike happen in the movement phase.

Both of these things are true, but the question is, "is Manta Strike movement" which does not seem to be the case. Yes, you can't move within 1" of an enemy model, but Manta Strike, as far as I can tell, is not a form of movement.

Page 177: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

In order to prohibit moving "further", they have to have moved in the first place, otherwise it's a nonsensical sentence. Therefore, we can conclude that arriving as reinforces is movement.

I don't that's entirely accurate. I notice there is a section there you didn't bold in yellow, perhaps because you realized it disproves your point? Let's bold that part, too:

Page 177: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive"

So, according to your logic, "further" means that the thing must have happened, yes? Well, according to this sentence and your own logic then, the unit must have Advanced. And yet, to Advance would mean it can't shoot Heavy Weapons, shoots Assault weapons at -1, and can't Charge. If your logic held true, which IMO it does not, Deep Strikers must have Advanced. In order to prohibit Advancing "further", they have to have Advanced in the first place, otherwise it's a nonsensical sentence. Therefore we can conclude that arriving as reinforcements counts as an Advance... right?

No, obviously not. Clearly that's not what the sentence means, it just means you can't move or Advance after arriving via reinforcements. It's not implying you already moved and Advanced. And there's no logic that "further" only applies to "move" and not "Advance" so I think that we can safely say that your argument is not accurate. What do you think?

No, because there is an "or" in the middle of that. I get you're upset you can't do this but the rules are clear.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, because there is an "or" in the middle of that. I get you're upset you can't do this but the rules are clear.

The "further" is right next to the "Advance" not the "move" so if anything it supports my conclusion. EDIT: What I mean to say is, if it were worded "cannot move further or Advance" you might be right, but instead it says "cannot move or Advance further" so I think that's pretty throughly debunked

Nice ad-hom, but I am not a Tau player, so this is not upsetting to me; however, I nonetheless think that my understanding of the rules are correct.

I suspect we will see a change in the wording of homing beacon so it goes away like a teleport homer does (that is to say, instantly) if within 9" of an enemy, when the Codex is released, for what it's worth. But I think the rules, as they are written, support my understanding.

Blazinghand wrote:
The "further" is right next to the "Advance" not the "move" so if anything it supports my conclusion.

That's not how English grammar works.

If I say "You may take apple or orange soda", that means you can take an apple soda or an orange soda. You are honestly arguing I meant you could take the metaphysical concept of "apple", because I didn't say "Apple soda or Orange soda".

No, because you can not end your movement phase within 3 inches of an enemy model.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Blazinghand wrote:
The "further" is right next to the "Advance" not the "move" so if anything it supports my conclusion.

That's not how English grammar works.

If I say "You may take apple or orange soda", that means you can take an apple soda or an orange soda. You are honestly arguing I meant you could take the metaphysical concept of "apple", because I didn't say "Apple soda or Orange soda".

So to be clear, your argument is that: "Units that are set up in this manner cannot move or Advance further during the turn they arrive" means that it is 100% the case that they moved, and 0% the case that they Advanced?

 Backspacehacker wrote:
No, because you can not end your movement phase within 3 inches of an enemy model.

1) the rule you're thinking of is 1 inch, not 3 inches
2) you can in fact end your movement phase within 1 inch of an enemy model, you just cannot MOVE to within 1 inch of an enemy model (so if you began in assault, you can do nothing and stay there if you wish)
3) I am arguing that Manta Strike is not movement

mchammadad wrote:
Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'

The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model

Enemy Models

All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'

^^^^This is the answer to your question and it is no.

I've bolded the parts that are particularly relevant to make it super, ultra, conclusively clear.

Is manta strike done in the movement phase?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purpose

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'reinforcements'

The unit counts as moved in their movement phase, and the movement phase is very specific in which you cannot be within 1" of an enemy model

Enemy Models

All models in the same army are friendly models. Models controlled by an opposing player are enemy models. When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models

Core Rulebook Pg 177 'Movement'

^^^^This is the answer to your question and it is no.

I've bolded the parts that are particularly relevant to make it super, ultra, conclusively clear.

The bolded part from the reinforcements is not actually what the rule says, which perhaps is why there are some miscommunications happening here. Take a look at the italicized part above. The rule says:

" Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons. "

We should note that "Units... count as having moved" is not the same as "reinforcement is movement" and it's not even the same as "counts as moving"; it's the past tense. It says that, after the fact, that units count as having moved, not that reinforcement itself is actually movement. That being said, I think your interpretation is reasonable and likely how it should be played in actual games, even if that's not literally what the rules say.

EDIT:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Is manta strike done in the movement phase?

yes, but the question is, "is arriving as reinforcements movement"

If you arrive in the movement phase from off the board, you have "moved onto the board." Meaning you did move. Manta strike is a movement just like deep strike is also a movement.

Blazinghand wrote:
yes, but the question is, "is arriving as reinforcements movement"

Yes, man. If a unit "counts as having moved" what else could it possibly mean? It's the same thing. You said it yourself - "Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved in their Movement phase for all rules purposes". For all rules purposes.

We've seen other rules where it says you can't move within 1". I think it says somewhere (I can't be bothered to look rn, sorry) that if you for some unknown reason manage to finish your movement within 1" of an enemy model and you're not in combat with it, you need to immediately move out of 1" range.

Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge

RaW this is correct.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge

RaW this is correct.

Jesus just when I thought deep striking a daemon primarch could not get any stupider.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Side note question, since warp time happens in the psyker phase does that mean you can enjoy your warptime movement with in an inch and be in combat with out needing to charge

RAW this is incorrect. Unit subjected to Warptime moves "as if it were its Movement phase" with all attendant rules and restrictions.

Oh well there we go.