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This has always felt like a very strange thing to me.

The Eldar are a dying race, slowly dwindling away. So by definition there has to be more Eldar alive during the Horus Heresy than during the 41st Millennium. Its only 200 years since the Fall. Despite this the Craftworlds play a MAJOR role in the story of 40k. Either acting as direct allies to the Imperium against Chaos, especially Slannesh who is their Great Enemy and by manipulating events in a way that will save the Eldar. We see plenty of examples of this in 40k. Even in the Gathering Storm, a story overwhelmingly about the Return of Guilliman they play a pivotal role in those proceedings. Plus, the Eldar frequently find themselves targeted by Chaos anyway, especially Slannesh.

So to me its never made much sense how minor a role the Eldar play in the Horus Heresy. From what I've read theres a few excuses used for this:

1) The Eldar haven't recovered from the Great Crusade:

This argument makes no sense because the Eldar are incapable of recovering as a species: every Eldar lost means the subsequent generation will be smaller due to She Who Thirsts and the inability for Eldar souls to be reincarnated. A good example is Craftworld Lyanden. This is before the Tyranids wiped out this most populous craftworld which means it would still have far more people on it than the few thousand it does. Despite this, all of the Craftworlds are major players in the galaxy. So there are more Eldar during the Horus Heresy.

2) The Eldar are part of the weird Alpha Legion conspiracy so are hoping the Imperium and Chaos destroy eachother without any Eldar dying:

This is contradicted by Eldrad showing up during the events of Fulgrim. Its also extremely unlikely that every craftworld could or would agree to this insane plan. It is also an extremely risky plan. If you read Ruinstorm, Sanguinious sees visions of the future in which Chaos triumphs and consumes the galaxy with Horus Dark Empire ascendant. It is obviously a very bad idea to "do nothing" in this situation and it obviously isn't the only future that might be gleamed.

Basically its very "out of character" for the Eldar to have not attacked the Traitor Legions during the Horus Heresy. You can't argue that "Horus Traitor Legions are too powerful" since the he is nowhere near as powerful as the Chaos army unleashed during the events of the Dark Imperium. If Horus wins, they die. It makes much more sense to make common cause with the Imperium; for which there is a very long precedent. Plus it doesn't make sense to have a MAJOR player in the story be essentially uninvolved in such a major galactic event which very much involves them. If Horus wins, Slannesh will use the Emperors Children to consume every Eldar soul. Plus the Eldar know that the Rhana Dhandra or final war against Chaos will come; so they should know that this won't work. They know that they must die to destroy Slannesh so they wouldn't buy that "oh yeah Horus can destroy Chaos".


Dark Eldar:

The Dark Eldar have pretty much every reason to take advantage of the Chaos and attack the Imperium and Horus Dark Empire. Both armies are distracted by their own civil war. It would be the perfect time to reave and enslave countless human worlds. As far as I am aware this is not the case. The Dark Eldar are just not acting in character and politely letting the Imperium have a breather before attacking them; which in 40k they do on a regular occurance.

Orks:

Now this is possibly the only one for which you could legit argue there is a good excuse. We know that immediately before the events of the Horus Heresy the Emperor destroyed a vast Ork Empire on Ullanor which was led by a Prime Ork. The events of the Beast Arises imply that the Orks do not recover for 2000 years when another Prime Ork rises. In fact, as far as we know, the Orks never reach that point again after this point with Ghasghull possibly on the cusp of evolving into a Prime Ork and returning his species to that more advanced stage of Waaagh.

But, we also know Orks. They never stop fighting. They breed incredibly quickly and can recover their strength very quickly. Ullanor can't have been the only Ork Empire. In Know no Fear they mention another Ork Empire near Ultramar for example. Plus it mentioned briefly that the Orks do take advantage of the civil war to attack the Imperium in book 3. However this isn't followed up on or developed. Again, you would be forgiven for thinking the Imperium is being given a polite breather whilst it fights it civil war. Which is really out of character, the Orks would probably rampage across a divided Imperium.

Also, the Orks aren't stupid. They can, in their own way, recognise when Chaos is up to no good and tend to attack Chaos. If Horus wins, they die.


Now, you could argue that all this is simply due to the limited scope of the books; focused on the Legions. That the Xenos probably did attack the Imperium and Horus during the Heresy; its just beyond the scope of the novels. The problem is that the series has gone on for so long its a glaring omission. These races play a major role in the galaxy later on. Plus, for a series that often likes to tell us "how bad things are getting" it doesn't make sense not to mention an alien assault. So the inference is that it isn't happening or is irrelevant. It also creates a major disconnect between the Horus Heresy and the rest of the lore. You would be forgiven for thinking humans are the only species in the galaxy or that the Eldar were fully dead dead. The amount of times Imperial or Chaos just waltzes into Eldar ruins or even the webway without being shot at is remarkable. Obviously in 40k the Imperium is being attacked by Chaos AND Xenos. Chaos isn't just attacking the Imperium but is a threat to all life. The story of the Horus Heresy only makes sense if the xenos don't attack the Imperium and chaos doesn't attack the xenos. Which is kind of unlikely and a bit of a plot hole.

I suppose an in-unìverse reason would be that the eldar are still reeling from the Fall. People assume the Fall happened way before any human history, but it's exactly what set off the Great Crusade itself so it's happening basically in tandem with the Horus Heresy.

Really you are right though. We should be seeing more stricken and desperate eldar refugees popping up on crippled craftworlds and stuff like that. Or at least some of them.

That said, I'm not sure how much I'd trust the HH authors to do the eldar justice given how they just directly ported 40k eldar into that Fulgrim novel and didn't put an ounce of thought into how the eldar would be radically different from the eldar we see today.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I suppose an in-unìverse reason would be that the eldar are still reeling from the Fall. People assume the Fall happened way before any human history, but it's exactly what set off the Great Crusade itself so it's happening basically in tandem with the Horus Heresy.

Really you are right though. We should be seeing more stricken and desperate eldar refugees popping up on crippled craftworlds and stuff like that. Or at least some of them.

That said, I'm not sure how much I'd trust the HH authors to do the eldar justice given how they just directly ported 40k eldar into that Fulgrim novel and didn't put an ounce of thought into how the eldar would be radically different from the eldar we see today.

Related to this, I wonder if it is because the Eldar themselves are in a civil war after the Fall, and the Craftworlders and Dark Eldar are trying to find their places in this new world order, and fighting each other for territory. As such, they would be avoiding humans for the most part as they sort out their own back yard.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Now, you could argue that all this is simply due to the limited scope of the books; focused on the Legions. That the Xenos probably did attack the Imperium and Horus during the Heresy; its just beyond the scope of the novels. The problem is that the series has gone on for so long its a glaring omission. These races play a major role in the galaxy later on. Plus, for a series that often likes to tell us "how bad things are getting" it doesn't make sense not to mention an alien assault. So the inference is that it isn't happening or is irrelevant. It also creates a major disconnect between the Horus Heresy and the rest of the lore. You would be forgiven for thinking humans are the only species in the galaxy or that the Eldar were fully dead dead. The amount of times Imperial or Chaos just waltzes into Eldar ruins or even the webway without being shot at is remarkable. Obviously in 40k the Imperium is being attacked by Chaos AND Xenos. Chaos isn't just attacking the Imperium but is a threat to all life. The story of the Horus Heresy only makes sense if the xenos don't attack the Imperium and chaos doesn't attack the xenos. Which is kind of unlikely and a bit of a plot hole.

Actually this is likely good reason. Why doesn't Lord of The Rings cover much at all what happens at Erebor etc? Because story isn't about that area. It's about Frodo taking the ring to Mount Doom.

Similarly HH is story about Imperium fighting itself in convoluted scheming from both sides(both Emperor and Chaos goign "things go just as planned"). Not about alien attacks. While they could easily be happening it's not what the story is about.

Don't think I can comment too well on the eldar (though Eldrad personally tried to warn Fulgrim about chaos) but orks did have a huge role. They were among the primary threats during the crusade which culminated on Ullanor. Indeed, although just aluded to, Horus had to save the Emperor himself from getting killed by an Ork warboss. Part of why they seem insignificant is that they were broken before the HH storyline starts.

Why would Orks care about Horus and the Emperors falling out? I can see why it would matter to the Eldar, as they are themselves enemies of Chaos, but I don't see Orks concerning themselves with such minor details. They just want to stomp some faces, go really fast and see some big explosions.

Remember, Orks are the race that fought a long genocidal civil war amongst themselves, which was later fondly remembered as Da Big Party.

pismakron wrote:
Why would Orks care about Horus and the Emperors falling out? I can see why it would matter to the Eldar, as they are themselves enemies of Chaos, but I don't see Orks concerning themselves with such minor details. They just want to stomp some faces, go really fast and see some big explosions.

Remember, Orks are the race that fought a long genocidal civil war amongst themselves, which was later fondly remembered as Da Big Party.

I think the OP is saying that whilst Orks wouldn't care about the politics, they wouldn't want to miss such a large scrap, or the opportunity to prey on the Imperium when it is fractured and weak.

I think the likely answer is that the largest Ork empires were shattered by the Great Crusade, and whilst many worlds likely were ravaged by various xenos including Orks during the Heresy, these were small incursions that were unimportant agaisnt the backdrop of galaxy-spanning events and enormous battles in the Horus Heresy. In fact, the FW HH books state as much- that isolated worlds were attacked by xenos and pirates and raiders throughout the Heresy, but it basically didn't matter. What this means is that you could make a 30k xenos force if you want, but it wouldn't have much impact on any of the main events of the HH, which is true of most of the combat that actually happened during the HH.

Pretty sure the Eldar and Orks were doing their things during the Horus Heresy. It just falls out of the scope of the story since their actions do not have a big enough impact to influence the overall story of the Imperium's civil war.

There are a few scattered clues to the reasoning hidden among many sources of Eldar lore over the years, but all of them can be summarized into this: The craftworlds after the fall had a period of time where they did not have constant contact with eachother, has lost contact with many exodite worlds, and the aspect warriors and the structure of their military as we know it in 40k was not yet cemented. Worth noting is that all the craftworlds had to journey back towards the Eye, to make expeditions to the crone worlds which were the only source of spirit stones, this took them in the opposite direction of the major centers of conflict, and would still be a work in progress at the time of the heresy.

Summary Timeline:

Beginning of M30: The Fall, the craftworlds are scattered, communication is nonexistant, the phoenix lords begin, and it is stated as taking a thousand years for the race as a whole to return to even a semblance of order instead of ragged survivors each doing thier own thing

Beginning M31: The Great Crusade, at least two craftworlds are shattered, sowing deep distrust with the Imperium among the Eldar, the reforging of contacts continues, and the eldar focus on restoring contact to as many craftworlds and exodite worlds as they can

200.M31: Horus Heresy Begins, the distrust is still present, as the last craftworld shattered by the crusade was stated to have occurred only 25 years prior, and the majority of the craftworlds had moved away from the imperium in response.

Conclusion: The crusade had pushed the majority of the existing craftworld forces out towards the galactic rim and west, resulting in the small forces that were within striking range of the imperium and traitors to be a non-issue for both sides, any seer councils probably had a difficult time swaying the leadership of the craftworlds to thier point of view, the councils then wielded far less political power then as they do in 40k.

As for the dark eldar, my guess is that they were of the opinion sticking your nose out when slaanesh is in greatest ascendance is a poor choice, and were probably picking up the peices themselves.

Why would the Eldar intervene? Don't interrupt your opponent when they are in the process of making a mistake. Humans killing each other instead of spreading throughout the galaxy wiping out everything in their path can only be an improvement.

In US history the Civil War always seems to focus on the North and South. But forgets the proxy war that was happening with European countries trying to affect the outcome. History books sometimes leave out the details. And the novels are from only a handful of viewpoints.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Why would the Eldar intervene? Don't interrupt your opponent when they are in the process of making a mistake. Humans killing each other instead of spreading throughout the galaxy wiping out everything in their path can only be an improvement.

Apart from this "mistake" being engineered by Emperor to get rid of tools once they had done their job.

During the Heresy, the Eldar are still in the process of gathering the survivors and fleeing to safety. Playing a bigger role in humanity's largest bout of hubris was far from the top of their list of priorities.

The orks were probably around everywhere - fighting and scrapping and fighting some more. They didn't have to go looking for fights against anyone else, not when orks will happily fight orks anyway. If human forces got in the way, or got close enough to make it a better proposition, they'd happily engage them. An ork exists to fight. period.

There is one thing that bothers me about Orks. They are often described as being very very very numerous, and sometimes as being the first species in the galaxy in terms of population. Then it means that every planet controlled by Orks should produce an army strong in the billions of soldiers. Then how come that at Ullanor (one of the biggest Ork empires of its time), the Imperium managed to win by sending "only" a few millions soldiers of the Imperial Army and around 100k Astartes ? I think there is a big discrepancy between how they are portrayed and how they are dealt with.

Engrenages wrote:
There is one thing that bothers me about Orks. They are often described as being very very very numerous, and sometimes as being the first species in the galaxy in terms of population. Then it means that every planet controlled by Orks should produce an army strong in the billions of soldiers. Then how come that at Ullanor (one of the biggest Ork empires of its time), the Imperium managed to win by sending "only" a few millions soldiers of the Imperial Army and around 100k Astartes ? I think there is a big discrepancy between how they are portrayed and how they are dealt with.

Well, I guess it comes down entirely to the quality of the troops and leadership of the Imperial forces. They had at least two Primarchs, and the Emperor himself, yet they still found it enough of a challenge that the Emperor was almost struck down in combat, and saved by Horus' hand. The Emperor is a psychic demigod, and him and the Primarchs were known strategic and tactical geniuses. They probably just outmanouevred the Orks and fought smarter. Space Marines are all about doing a lot with a little- for all we know, they spearheaded right into the heart of Ullanor, and aimed a decapitation strike right at the prime Ork, thus cutting the head off. Space Marines can repeatedley strike where the enemy is weakest, so superior numbers is not necessarily a defence against them, unless you can react to their attacks and respond with those numbers to trap the Marines.

a) GW numbers
b) it wasn't straight up fight anyway. While white scars and ultramarines drew and delayed ork forces Horus led Luna wolves straight to the HQ crippling the leadership resulting in lots of infighting which helped imperials to no end.

tneva82 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Why would the Eldar intervene? Don't interrupt your opponent when they are in the process of making a mistake. Humans killing each other instead of spreading throughout the galaxy wiping out everything in their path can only be an improvement.

Apart from this "mistake" being engineered by Emperor to get rid of tools once they had done their job.

Yes, he made a LOT of pretty huge mistakes.

tneva82 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Why would the Eldar intervene? Don't interrupt your opponent when they are in the process of making a mistake. Humans killing each other instead of spreading throughout the galaxy wiping out everything in their path can only be an improvement.

Apart from this "mistake" being engineered by Emperor to get rid of tools once they had done their job.

That's optimism if I ever saw it. The Heresy is a giant mess not a plan.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

2) The Eldar are part of the weird Alpha Legion conspiracy so are hoping the Imperium and Chaos destroy eachother without any Eldar dying:

This is contradicted by Eldrad showing up during the events of Fulgrim. Its also extremely unlikely that every craftworld could or would agree to this insane plan. It is also an extremely risky plan. If you read Ruinstorm, Sanguinious sees visions of the future in which Chaos triumphs and consumes the galaxy with Horus Dark Empire ascendant. It is obviously a very bad idea to "do nothing" in this situation and it obviously isn't the only future that might be gleamed.

Eldrad's never really represented a majority view of the Eldar. In fact he's one of the more pro-Humanity Eldar out there, which sets him apart on its own, without getting into his generally weird but ultimately plausible schemes.

Also - the Eldar do take an active hand in a few battles. Angel Exterminatus is one, but they were also responsible for the battle where Legio Vulcanum I and Legio Vulcanum II turned (Stygies VIII forge) and is the one confirmed heresy-era engine war engagement featuring the eldar Titan clans.

Also, the Eldar tried to warn Ferrus Manus about the Heresy. I believe that was in The Primarchs book, which had four short stories about four different primarchs in it. And included a battle where the Iron Hands fought Eldar.

But honestly, humanity was forging an empire to wipe out all alien life. Why would the Eldar want to help them or prevent them from killing each other?

 Haighus wrote:

Engrenages wrote:
There is one thing that bothers me about Orks. They are often described as being very very very numerous, and sometimes as being the first species in the galaxy in terms of population. Then it means that every planet controlled by Orks should produce an army strong in the billions of soldiers. Then how come that at Ullanor (one of the biggest Ork empires of its time), the Imperium managed to win by sending "only" a few millions soldiers of the Imperial Army and around 100k Astartes ? I think there is a big discrepancy between how they are portrayed and how they are dealt with.

Well, I guess it comes down entirely to the quality of the troops and leadership of the Imperial forces. They had at least two Primarchs, and the Emperor himself, yet they still found it enough of a challenge that the Emperor was almost struck down in combat, and saved by Horus' hand. The Emperor is a psychic demigod, and him and the Primarchs were known strategic and tactical geniuses. They probably just outmanouevred the Orks and fought smarter. Space Marines are all about doing a lot with a little- for all we know, they spearheaded right into the heart of Ullanor, and aimed a decapitation strike right at the prime Ork, thus cutting the head off. Space Marines can repeatedley strike where the enemy is weakest, so superior numbers is not necessarily a defence against them, unless you can react to their attacks and respond with those numbers to trap the Marines.

Have none of you read The Wolf of Ash and Fire?

The Emperor is separated from everyone except Horus and Horus finds him as he loses his fight against the Mega Mek. He's about to die and Horus saves his ass (almost dying himself in the process) and allows him to cast "you no longer exist" on the Mega Mek, the EXACT same power he has to use to defeat Horus in the HH. This is Horus' first contact with anything resembling "the warp". The Ork's very soul is removed from existence. Anyway, they fight in an area that contains an energy source either powered by a massive sun or a super massive black hole, I forget which. Once the Mega Mek is dealt with, the pair of Mary Sues destabilize the energy source and the Orks are destroyed from the psychic backlash of their leader perishing and the resulting explosion from the energy source. Of course they *somehow* teleport out and are happy as Larry.

They don't win with superior tactics, or superior technology, or by some sort of surgical strike, they win through sheer luck and the arrogance of the Mega Mek (who taunts Empy instead of killing him). They also suffer serious and massive casualties.

It could be argued that the Orks were the catalyst and were directly responsible for the ensuing events of the HH. As I said, the spell that Emps uses to delete the Mega Mek is Horus' first contact with the warp, which seeds his doubts (that Daddy isn't telling him everything) and eventually leads to his betrayal. I found the whole "herp derp lets give Horus some bs future visions" an incredibly weak reason for Horus to go full betrayal. He only does this, in my mind, because of the events at Ullanor.

I haven't read the subsequent HH books unfortunately, so can't comment on how they impact on the suggested influence of the other races.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Why would the Eldar intervene? Don't interrupt your opponent when they are in the process of making a mistake. Humans killing each other instead of spreading throughout the galaxy wiping out everything in their path can only be an improvement.

Apart from this "mistake" being engineered by Emperor to get rid of tools once they had done their job.

Yes, he made a LOT of pretty huge mistakes.

Dunno. He underestimated how much chaos had. Apart from that he got marines fighting with each other just as planned. Sure traitors-to-be were loyal and loyal-to-be went traitors but still overall goal was archieved in that marines started killing each other.

It's not just the deleting the Mega Mek, if I recall correctly Big E also deposits the exploding deathstar into a pocket dimension?

He somehow powers himself up with a kind of lifetap spell in order to do that?

It's all very strange and Horus is rightly weirded out.

nareik wrote:
It's not just the deleting the Mega Mek, if I recall correctly Big E also deposits the exploding deathstar into a pocket dimension?

He somehow powers himself up with a kind of lifetap spell in order to do that?

It's all very strange and Horus is rightly weirded out.

Right you are, he did send the exploding deathstar away with some other bs spell.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Engrenages wrote:
There is one thing that bothers me about Orks. They are often described as being very very very numerous, and sometimes as being the first species in the galaxy in terms of population. Then it means that every planet controlled by Orks should produce an army strong in the billions of soldiers. Then how come that at Ullanor (one of the biggest Ork empires of its time), the Imperium managed to win by sending "only" a few millions soldiers of the Imperial Army and around 100k Astartes ? I think there is a big discrepancy between how they are portrayed and how they are dealt with.

Well, I guess it comes down entirely to the quality of the troops and leadership of the Imperial forces. They had at least two Primarchs, and the Emperor himself, yet they still found it enough of a challenge that the Emperor was almost struck down in combat, and saved by Horus' hand. The Emperor is a psychic demigod, and him and the Primarchs were known strategic and tactical geniuses. They probably just outmanouevred the Orks and fought smarter. Space Marines are all about doing a lot with a little- for all we know, they spearheaded right into the heart of Ullanor, and aimed a decapitation strike right at the prime Ork, thus cutting the head off. Space Marines can repeatedley strike where the enemy is weakest, so superior numbers is not necessarily a defence against them, unless you can react to their attacks and respond with those numbers to trap the Marines.

Have none of you read The Wolf of Ash and Fire?

The Emperor is separated from everyone except Horus and Horus finds him as he loses his fight against the Mega Mek. He's about to die and Horus saves his ass (almost dying himself in the process) and allows him to cast "you no longer exist" on the Mega Mek, the EXACT same power he has to use to defeat Horus in the HH. This is Horus' first contact with anything resembling "the warp". The Ork's very soul is removed from existence. Anyway, they fight in an area that contains an energy source either powered by a massive sun or a super massive black hole, I forget which. Once the Mega Mek is dealt with, the pair of Mary Sues destabilize the energy source and the Orks are destroyed from the psychic backlash of their leader perishing and the resulting explosion from the energy source. Of course they *somehow* teleport out and are happy as Larry.

They don't win with superior tactics, or superior technology, or by some sort of surgical strike, they win through sheer luck and the arrogance of the Mega Mek (who taunts Empy instead of killing him). They also suffer serious and massive casualties.

It could be argued that the Orks were the catalyst and were directly responsible for the ensuing events of the HH. As I said, the spell that Emps uses to delete the Mega Mek is Horus' first contact with the warp, which seeds his doubts (that Daddy isn't telling him everything) and eventually leads to his betrayal. I found the whole "herp derp lets give Horus some bs future visions" an incredibly weak reason for Horus to go full betrayal. He only does this, in my mind, because of the events at Ullanor.

I haven't read the subsequent HH books unfortunately, so can't comment on how they impact on the suggested influence of the other races.

That story sounds terrible. But it also did not take place on Ullanor.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
That story sounds terrible. But it also did not take place on Ullanor.

Great contribution. It was during the Ullanor Crusade, same difference.

tneva82 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Why would the Eldar intervene? Don't interrupt your opponent when they are in the process of making a mistake. Humans killing each other instead of spreading throughout the galaxy wiping out everything in their path can only be an improvement.

Apart from this "mistake" being engineered by Emperor to get rid of tools once they had done their job.

Yes, he made a LOT of pretty huge mistakes.

Dunno. He underestimated how much chaos had. Apart from that he got marines fighting with each other just as planned. Sure traitors-to-be were loyal and loyal-to-be went traitors but still overall goal was archieved in that marines started killing each other.

Okay. Implant explosives in Primarch's bodies and as many Marines as possible. Blow them up when done and the others will be wiped out by the Imperial Army.

That's a much smarter and safer way of killing off the Marines and it's still pretty silly.

Surely it would've just been easier to send them off to conquer another galaxy after the Great Crusade, and worry about them in a couple of million years when they've conquered it and returned?

I think it comes down to the dark eldar didn't exist really back then, not like they do now, they were just eldar, same with the crarfworlds, they hadn't taken on the identities that we know and love, they were still dealing with the fall, it had only been 200 years.