Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

TBH I've never really bought into the idea that the Alpha Legion were not traitors but think that if Horus wins they can save humanity. Especially since we know that

A - Horus gets killed and fails.

B - Sanguineous sees a future in the Ruinstorm where chaos triumphs with Horus dark empire. So he isn't going to magically destroy chaos.

C - The plan relies upon believing Horus can destroy Chaos. How? Why must that involve him killing the Emperor and wiping out the Imperium?

In other words, on a basic level; they are idiots. They are assuming this is the only outcome and did not interrogate their visions.


Personally I think that they have to have fallen to Chaos post Heresy.

- They spend 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror.

- Its poetic justice for them to have become damned to a hellish existence for their foolishness and stupidity.

- It does not make sense that they could tricked the Chaos Gods...some of whom literally weave fate itself. If they could fool the Emperor and Magnus I can't imagine them not duping Alpharius; who is not even a psyker.

- Haven't read the 8th edition codex, but the army can take the full Chaos gifts, weapons and daemon engines. You can't use that stuff without getting corrupted 99% of the time.

- The plan, such as it was, required Horus to kill the Emperor and that he would be so overcome with grief that he would destroy Chaos (somehow...). Well, once the grand plan fails you've kind of failed and aren't achieving anything by actively helping Abaddon. Who just wants his revenge and is clearly a pawn of Chaos. He doesn't think hes a pawn, but he really, really is.

They are neither and both at the same time. That's their whole gimmick.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
They are neither and both at the same time. That's their whole gimmick.

Even though you can make a Alpha Legion army consisting of a Daemon Prince, all possessed with daemon engines or various marks cult troops and you can ally them with Daemons? Even though they are covered in Chaos iconography?

Surely Chaos would have corrupted them? You can't "infiltrate" Chaos. They can read your mind, they can possess you, they can manipulate you and twist your judgement. Especially if you are in close proximity, contact or I dunno actively allying with Chaos and participating in the slaughter of innocents. If you were an Imperial, well they would constantly be trying to subvert and corrupt you. Eventually those who do fall, because any marine can fall, would purge those who were "loyalists".

The only way you rationalise this is if the entire Alpha Legion are magically immune to Chaos and can just "pretend" to be Daemon Princes, Possessed and ally with daemons. That would make all the other people who get instantly or quickly corrupted to chaos not make any sense.

All the heretic legions have splintered to some extent after 10,000 years. So the answer is that there are probably some that uphold their original intent, and there are some that have fallen to Chaos since.

In the old lore the AL never retreated en mass to the EoT, that was one of the seeds for the loyalist schtick. But honestly who knows. The original XX was not precisely out for the imperium either, but did pretty much whatever it wanted to. Perhaps it’s the same now. I collected AL during 2e and have a whole all metal warband which I run using 2e rules, an all together simpler age.

 The Phazer wrote:
All the heretic legions have splintered to some extent after 10,000 years. So the answer is that there are probably some that uphold their original intent, and there are some that have fallen to Chaos since.

And to elaborate on that point, it doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me that possibly only one of the twin primarchs succumbed to Chaos while the other remained loyalist. Chapters with one primarch saw a divide with some astartes questioning/defying their own primarch. I could only imagine breaking off from the Chapter in the footsteps of a dissenting primarch among a pair is a much more fluid and straightforward decision.

None of the legions is really still unified. Some parts of the Alpha Legion have fallen to chaos and some have stayed true. Some of gone completely renegade and don't advocate for either side.

 hybridmoments82 wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
All the heretic legions have splintered to some extent after 10,000 years. So the answer is that there are probably some that uphold their original intent, and there are some that have fallen to Chaos since.

And to elaborate on that point, it doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me that possibly only one of the twin primarchs succumbed to Chaos while the other remained loyalist. Chapters with one primarch saw a divide with some astartes questioning/defying their own primarch. I could only imagine breaking off from the Chapter in the footsteps of a dissenting primarch among a pair is a much more fluid and straightforward decision.

Alpharius is supposed to be dead though, so that puts an end to that. Both Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.

No. That's easy. Examine any of their actions in the current 40k universe. The answer is crystal clear.

Wasn't original plan to defeat chaos by getting rid of humanity itself? So basically ensure Horus wins resulting in human's quick destruction thus robbing chaos of the power they get from humans.

Could be wrong. Never bothered much with AL fluff. Especially new one.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
TBH I've never really bought into the idea that the Alpha Legion were not traitors but think that if Horus wins they can save humanity. Especially since we know that

A - Horus gets killed and fails.

B - Sanguineous sees a future in the Ruinstorm where chaos triumphs with Horus dark empire. So he isn't going to magically destroy chaos.

C - The plan relies upon believing Horus can destroy Chaos. How? Why must that involve him killing the Emperor and wiping out the Imperium?

In other words, on a basic level; they are idiots. They are assuming this is the only outcome and did not interrogate their visions.


Personally I think that they have to have fallen to Chaos post Heresy.

- They spend 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror.

- Its poetic justice for them to have become damned to a hellish existence for their foolishness and stupidity.

- It does not make sense that they could tricked the Chaos Gods...some of whom literally weave fate itself. If they could fool the Emperor and Magnus I can't imagine them not duping Alpharius; who is not even a psyker.

- Haven't read the 8th edition codex, but the army can take the full Chaos gifts, weapons and daemon engines. You can't use that stuff without getting corrupted 99% of the time.

- The plan, such as it was, required Horus to kill the Emperor and that he would be so overcome with grief that he would destroy Chaos (somehow...). Well, once the grand plan fails you've kind of failed and aren't achieving anything by actively helping Abaddon. Who just wants his revenge and is clearly a pawn of Chaos. He doesn't think hes a pawn, but he really, really is.

That Alpharius' two-page emotional "battle" of turning on the Emperor is a bit thin is well known, and the Cabal is quite often ridiculed. It's one of the absolutely weakest points in 40k fluff. While it doesn't really sway anyone, I'm choosing to merge the older Index Astartes article, and rather have the Alpha Legion willfully keen on turning other Astartes due to their inherent pride, Guilliman's rebuke, and seeing war as its own end. Given a slight nudge, even by filthy xenos witches, they had an excuse.

However, they did not spend 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror. They never went there - they disappeared on the Eastern Fringe.

Are the Alpha Legion still "loyalists"?

-No

-Yes

-It depends on what they had for breakfast really.

It doesn't matter what their 30k intentions may have been.

In 40k they are mustache curling villains fully supporting the chaos gods.

In the 30k time frame, were the Alpha Legion loyalist? To quote a former President, that depends what you mean by the word 'is'.

During the Heresy, the Alpha Legion were essentially asked to make a decision. Down one path, humanity destroys Chaos, but goes extinct in the process. This is what the Eldar/Cabal want to see occur. Down the other path, humanity lasts basically forever. To get down the second path, the Alpha Legion have to turn against the Emperor's wishes. They believed that the Emperor would want humanity to last, so they made the decision to fight against him. It's an example of the ends justifying the means. They martyred their loyalty to achieve what they believed to be they're boss's long term goals.

During the current time frame? Total Chaos Marines. They've been working for/with Chaos for so long that they're definitely corrupted.

I've decided that the Alpha Legion and Alpharius are so enigmatic and mysterious...

Horus believes he found his primarch brother when he found Alpharius.

The truth is that Alpharius (and Omegon) are actually brainwashed fakes. The real Alpha Legion Primarch is still somewhere out there undiscovered, hiding in the shadows and pulling strings undetected.

Current fluff, in particular the late 7th edition Traitor Legions book, has elements of the AL be indisputably traitor at this point. My headcanon is that the legion split into a load of separate warbands with no contact to each other, each calling itself the real Alpha Legion. Over time many of these have ended up falling to Chaos, but some are still out there with their own schemes or even working to fight Chaos. However with no organization or master plan they’ve gone full sleeper agent awaiting the return of someone who can get them back on track.

No I am alpharius

 Kriswall wrote:


During the current time frame? Total Chaos Marines. They've been working for/with Chaos for so long that they're definitely corrupted.

I disagree. I don't know when they retconned the Alpha Legions but they did. Alpha legion are now individual cells. Some worship Chaos gods others hate them. Some help chaos while other hinder it. Some destroy planets of the imperium while others stop them from falling to xenos invasions. All cells operate individually going about what they think is the best way to achieve their mission. What that mission is no one outside the Alpha legion knows.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Alpharius is supposed to be dead though, so that puts an end to that. Both Alpharius and Omegon sided with Horus.

That last part is...incorrect.

Anyway, short answer here is "maybe" and/or "we don't know".

I'd say "I hope we find out eventually" but GW/BL have borked it up so badly I'm now leaning towards "I hope we don't find out" now...

 Lotus Corgi wrote:
In the old lore the AL never retreated en mass to the EoT, that was one of the seeds for the loyalist schtick.

Okay, this pisses me off when gw fluff does this. The great crusade lasted for... What, 300 years ish? The oldest primarchs that didn't go demon made it to 500years ish before getting axed or dissapearing. So if the alpha legion stayed in real space they've remained independent for 9.500 years. By contrast the oldest (non dreadnought) marine ever seems to be Dante at 1400 years. Every single original alpha legionary is stone dead if they stayed in realspace. All of their original equipment is replaced. Expect the oldest of them to be 400 years ish, not to mention gene seed degeneration from not having proper Imperial eqquipment. The fortress monasteries gets supplies by the mechanucum, Astra telepathica and the Inquisition to remain fully functional. So please explain to me how they are still around if they didn't go into the eye? If they did they're corrupted. If they didn't they're an entirely new crew with crappy equipment.

We don't know basically, due to AL being so vague and inconsistently written we cant really say anything about them.

I want to like AL but GW makes it so hard

Depends on whether you believe Space Marines have biological immortality and don't age to the point of dying of old age. We don't have definitive proof beyond in-universe opinions. Part of the reason we don't is because the violent lives they lead means eventually they tend to suffer fatal injuries.

Even if they aren't biologically immortal, there is a way: stasis fields. Alpha legionnaire goes into stasis, preferably somewhere remote or in deep space. Wakes up every few decades or every few centuries and maybe does a bit of managing of operatives and cults before going back into stasis.

Mine certainly arent lol
Then again you cant really answer this question as no 2 warbands will be the same

They are 100% normal Chaos Marines.

It seems to be individual groups think different things, so it can literally be whatever you want.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
They are 100% normal Chaos Marines.

Just like Dark Angels.

"Yes."

Some actually are flat out Chaos-loving heretics.

Some are more renegade.

Some might be loyal as a stone, and are embedding in with Chaos to disrupt it from within.

A solid theory is that Alpharius was presented with two options, and rigged the game in some way so that neither option came to pass. It just cost him and his legion their place in the Imperium.

But the Alpha Legion is many independent warbands and operatives. And it's not too far fetched to believe they might all be different.

"Sons of the Hydra" is an absolutely awful book, BTW.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
Some actually are flat out Chaos-loving heretics.

Some are more renegade.

Some might be loyal as a stone, and are embedding in with Chaos to disrupt it from within.

A solid theory is that Alpharius was presented with two options, and rigged the game in some way so that neither option came to pass. It just cost him and his legion their place in the Imperium.

But the Alpha Legion is many independent warbands and operatives. And it's not too far fetched to believe they might all be different.

Pretty much what Doritos says, I’m sure there’s a wide spectrum of loyalties, albeit one that has probably shrunk over the 10,000 years rather drastically, like an exponential decay. However, given how the Alpha Legion works they could in theory cause shenanigans aplenty- yes Alpha Legionaries are much more independent but at the same time restricted by who knows what the actual end game objective is. If one of the Primarchs are still alive (Either is possible given the AL stole the Primarch gene data from Corax and have that mind essence transfer, so it’s not that big a leap), then who knows what their true intent is?

Having said that, I feel any hardcore loyalist Alpha Legionaries (in large numbers) would have reintegrated back into the Imperium over the 10,000 years (probably right at the second founding like most Loyalist survivors but could be later). For example at a particular founding an extra chapter somehow gets attached to the data roll as being ready and inspected after some good preparation. Now they can legitimately influence the Imperium openly while having back channels to Chaos Warbands.