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It seems some people think Terminus Ultra is now Open Play only because of the Land Raider Variants section in chapter approved 2017. I understand there is a Terminus Ultra datasheet over a picture of the Land Raider with a big red stamp that says open play. Yet if you read the very first sentence of the previous page, It tells you that the datasheets in this section are only examples of what can be done using the Land Raider Variant rules. Why would anyone think that an example of Land Raider Variant rules would replace the rules from INDEX Imperium 1? Why would anyone think that a model going Open Play only would get a points adjustment? Well surprisingly some people do think that way. I was just disqualified from a tournament because of this. My second opponent argued that my list wasn't legal for Matched Play. He pointed to the red stamp, and I got disqualified. So I contacted GW on facebook. They messaged me back saying it is legal for matched play. Doesn't help much now though.

If you plan to use Terminus Ultra in a tourney list I suggest you ask GW for an FAQ

As it is now, there are two datasheets for the Terminus Ultra. Both are legal and current.

The Designer's Commentary only covers what happens when a datasheet appears in both the Index and a Codex, so that doesn't help.

So yeah, sounds like you got unlucky.

There is one datasheet, and one example of Land Raider Variant rules...

Tha's a bit of a move on the TO. When the unit clearly is within the Index, Since Chapter approve is not classified as a codex you would use the rules for the index, with the points values on chapter approved being used.

TO's should not just follow the talking from one person and instead look at the rules as stated on either the codex or Index for units. Chapter approve stuff is not an index or a codex so in no way should ever constitute a unit, unless it is specifically within that book and nowhere else.

Terminus Ultra is in the Index, a valid unit for matched play. Chapter approved just updated it's points, nothing more. It's only when you go into open play that other things apply, such as the extra 'design your own tank' things.

Morale of the story is, look the model up, is it in the codex? if not then look in the index. If it ain't in either then it's not valid. End of Story. This is something TO's need to understand. If it aint in one of those two things (Index/Codex) it's invalid

It's legal for matched play via the index. Any TO saying otherwise is just being a grouch and house-ruling it as illegal.

I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

Ipecac wrote:
I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

It was still the TOs responsibility to make a good call. Disqualification is really harsh and should not be used lightly. And why would the ultra receive a points update in the same book its allegedly removed from Matched? Isnt that the only mode of play that uses points?

nekooni wrote:

Ipecac wrote:
I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

It was still the TOs responsibility to make a good call. Disqualification is really harsh and should not be used lightly. And why would the ultra receive a points update in the same book its allegedly removed from Matched? Isnt that the only mode of play that uses points?

Yeah bad call but TO could have been running short on time so not having time to go through full process if there's pile of things needing taking care(like other rule questions).

Mistake but those happen. To err is to be human.

tneva82 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Ipecac wrote:
I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

It was still the TOs responsibility to make a good call. Disqualification is really harsh and should not be used lightly. And why would the ultra receive a points update in the same book its allegedly removed from Matched? Isnt that the only mode of play that uses points?

Yeah bad call but TO could have been running short on time so not having time to go through full process if there's pile of things needing taking care(like other rule questions).

Mistake but those happen. To err is to be human.

I don't know... I agreed with you until I remembered the OP actually got disqualified from entering the tournament for this. If it's something this important, I'd expect a bit more consideration.

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Ipecac wrote:
I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

It was still the TOs responsibility to make a good call. Disqualification is really harsh and should not be used lightly. And why would the ultra receive a points update in the same book its allegedly removed from Matched? Isnt that the only mode of play that uses points?

Yeah bad call but TO could have been running short on time so not having time to go through full process if there's pile of things needing taking care(like other rule questions).

Mistake but those happen. To err is to be human.

I don't know... I agreed with you until I remembered the OP actually got disqualified from entering the tournament for this. If it's something this important, I'd expect a bit more consideration.

He wasn't disqualified from entering. He was disqualified on the spot. Ie tournament was going on. Which means TO's could easily have had other rule issues and things and can't be spending all the time here so he made best ruling he could at the time with his knowledge. 40k is bloody big game so nobody knows it inside out(GW designers know maybe 10% if that of their own game!).

Yes it was wrong call but I wouldn't be pulling up pitch&fork and go on head hunt for the TO. Getting mistake corrected for future tournaments should be the priority.

If he had been disqualified from entering it would have been before tournament which means more time for TO to think about which would have been better. Sucks for TO's as well the more issues pops up DURING tournament. Alas this one was one less likely to pop up in advance.

nekooni wrote:

Ipecac wrote:
I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

It was still the TOs responsibility to make a good call. Disqualification is really harsh and should not be used lightly. And why would the ultra receive a points update in the same book its allegedly removed from Matched? Isnt that the only mode of play that uses points?

Didn't the article in Chapter Approved only deal with power levels for open play? I don't recall them mentioning points at all. Of course, it's not hard to figure point costs for weapons that already exist to add to the base vehicle cost. Of course, that shouldn't matter if you have the Index entry for the Terminus Ultra with the point costs listed, showing it's a legal vehicle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Ipecac wrote:
I don't blame the TO. I don't think he did anything wrong at all. A rules question was brought to him, and he made a call. Might have been the wrong call, yet he is not at fault. I blame GW for the horrible idea to use Terminus Ultra as an example in the Land Raider Variant rules.

It was still the TOs responsibility to make a good call. Disqualification is really harsh and should not be used lightly. And why would the ultra receive a points update in the same book its allegedly removed from Matched? Isnt that the only mode of play that uses points?

Yeah bad call but TO could have been running short on time so not having time to go through full process if there's pile of things needing taking care(like other rule questions).

Mistake but those happen. To err is to be human.

I don't know... I agreed with you until I remembered the OP actually got disqualified from entering the tournament for this. If it's something this important, I'd expect a bit more consideration.

He wasn't disqualified from entering. He was disqualified on the spot. Ie tournament was going on. Which means TO's could easily have had other rule issues and things and can't be spending all the time here so he made best ruling he could at the time with his knowledge. 40k is bloody big game so nobody knows it inside out(GW designers know maybe 10% if that of their own game!).

Yes it was wrong call but I wouldn't be pulling up pitch&fork and go on head hunt for the TO. Getting mistake corrected for future tournaments should be the priority.

If he had been disqualified from entering it would have been before tournament which means more time for TO to think about which would have been better. Sucks for TO's as well the more issues pops up DURING tournament. Alas this one was one less likely to pop up in advance.

A refund for the OP for the cost of entering the tournament that he was wrongly disqualified from would also seem to be in order, if he had the index with it listed. If he didn't, I can see why the T.O. ruled the way he did.

 doctortom wrote:

Didn't the article in Chapter Approved only deal with power levels for open play? I don't recall them mentioning points at all.

It's in the points list, 250 without lascannons etc.

https://i0.wp.com/www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/IM1.jpg

AutocannonSidearm wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Didn't the article in Chapter Approved only deal with power levels for open play? I don't recall them mentioning points at all.

It's in the points list, 250 without lascannons etc.

https://i0.wp.com/www.3plusplus.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/IM1.jpg

Hence my sentence after the one you quoted - "Of course, it's not hard to figure point costs for weapons that already exist to add to the base vehicle cost. " Implicit in that is that we do have the base vehicle costs.

One question that i'd like answered is how many people were playing? If it was 12 or less then the issue should have been addressed when lists were submitted. I can understand it if there were a lot of players and lists just get a cursory look.

There was about fourteen of us playing. We only spent about 10 minutes before we started to check lists. I feel our TO does a good job running the tourney. We only have so much time to get games in for a one day tourney, and he does what he can to keep things going smoothly. After I was DQ he switched my points with the opponent I did play a game against, and let me change my list so I could still play just with no chance of winning now. As I said before I do not fault the TO.