Switch Theme:

What do custodes know about marines that the rest of us don't?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

In the codex it's mentioned that custodes won't let space marines within spears length of them because they don't trust them. It's also mentioned that the custodes are the only people in the imperium with complete access to everything the imperium knows, and quite a few things the rest of the imperium doesn't know. So what is it the Custodes know that makes them distrust space marines, my guess is it has something to do with the creation of the primarchs. I remember reading some old fluff that the creation of the primarchs required the emperor making a deal with the chaos gods, thus why the chaos gods were able to spirit away the primarchs from under the emps nose. Maybe there is some additional aspect of that deal that makes Marines more vulnerable to corruption by chaos, what do you guys think?

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





I got the impression it was simply distrust from the whole Heresy. No Custodes (to my knowledge) have ever fallen, but nearly half of all Space Marines did. That's a good reason to distrust them.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





The Heresy.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


Freelance Ontologist

When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

If My recollections of the HH books are correct, they didn't particularly like/trust them before the HH ethier.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Custodes were the ones to kill the Thunder Warriors. Space Marines are just Thunder Warriors mk 2.

If the Webway project was completed, I'm sure the Custodes job would have been to kill the Space Marines that survived the Heresy.
You don't make friends with what you know you are supposed to kill.

(This based in the new lore from Warmaster)

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Galas wrote:
Custodes were the ones to kill the Thunder Warriors. Space Marines are just Thunder Warriors mk 2.

If the Webway project was completed, I'm sure the Custodes job would have been to kill the Space Marines that survived the Heresy.
You don't make friends with what you know you are supposed to kill.

(This based in the new lore from Warmaster)


Yeah it's heavily implied whole Heresy was Emperor's plan to get marines exterminate themselves since the Crusade was being wrapped up. Custodians would be finishing off survivors.

Begs a question. Emperor has no qualms getting rid of used tools. Would this apply to Custodians? And if not what makes Custodians so special for Emperor that they would not be abandoned, killed and replaced with new tool for next job?

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Custodians are Emperor's friends, it is said many times that they are the only individuals in all of the imperium that the honestly feels sad when they die in battle.
They aren't tools, they aren't soldiers. They are phylosophers, statemans, artists, generals, they are equals, they talked to the emperor demigod to demigod. I believe only Malcador had a closer relationship with the Emperor than the Custodes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 20:03:11


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Galas wrote:
Custodians are Emperor's friends, it is said many times that they are the only individuals in all of the imperium that the honestly feels sad when they die in battle.
They aren't tools, they aren't soldiers. They are phylosophers, statemans, artists, generals, they are equals, they talked to the emperor demigod to demigod. I believe only Malcador had a closer relationship with the Emperor than the Custodes.


They are his elite, his imortal host.

Those that fell on ulinor where inscribed into his own armour.

They are also made from the emparors own self almost, incorruptible and never have fallen or betrayed Thete oaths. The only ones who ever have served directly alongside the emparor as part of his direct household.

There the one resource he loaths to spend.

Ans the custodes trust none other than Thete own or the emparor. Add marines where the ones that caused all the problems and many thousands have turned traitor since the Hersey. Only grey knights have a incorruptible record equal to them and the sisters of battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 20:14:56


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Custodians are Emperor's friends, it is said many times that they are the only individuals in all of the imperium that the honestly feels sad when they die in battle.
They aren't tools, they aren't soldiers. They are phylosophers, statemans, artists, generals, they are equals, they talked to the emperor demigod to demigod. I believe only Malcador had a closer relationship with the Emperor than the Custodes.


That's what the Custodes think. They could be fallible and wrong since we don't get to know the Emperor's view of things. It could be that they too in turn would have been expendable at some point for the Emperor.

We do know that in Watchers of the Throne, the Custodes or at least one of them, saw the Custodes as a template for a future improved humanity, rather than the Primarchs being so. This conflicts with earlier RL sources that said the Primarchs were the prototype for a future improved humanity. Again though, this is in-universe Custodes opinion, so it could be they have an inflated or false view of their own importance in the Emperor's plans.

Certainly in Watchers of the Throne, they had a mixed opinion of the Grey Knights, perhaps reflecting some latent anxiety about their own role. They saw the Grey Knights as siblings, in that both were created from the Emperor, but the Custodes naturally saw themselves as superior and the elder sibling. However they also had to acknowledge the Grey Knights seemed more suited for a universe where Chaos, magic, and the daemonic were widespread, so the Custodes may have been anxious about what place they had in the grand scheme, and whether perhaps the Grey Knights were the "improved" version of themselves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/29 20:58:11


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





yeah the GK/Custodes relationship is intreasting, makes sense too. the Custodes IMHO are "what the emperor wanted" the Grey Knights being what the emperor realized was needed

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

Iracundus wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Custodians are Emperor's friends, it is said many times that they are the only individuals in all of the imperium that the honestly feels sad when they die in battle.
They aren't tools, they aren't soldiers. They are phylosophers, statemans, artists, generals, they are equals, they talked to the emperor demigod to demigod. I believe only Malcador had a closer relationship with the Emperor than the Custodes.


That's what the Custodes think. They could be fallible and wrong since we don't get to know the Emperor's view of things. It could be that they too in turn would have been expendable at some point for the Emperor.

We do know that in Watchers of the Throne, the Custodes or at least one of them, saw the Custodes as a template for a future improved humanity, rather than the Primarchs being so. This conflicts with earlier RL sources that said the Primarchs were the prototype for a future improved humanity. Again though, this is in-universe Custodes opinion, so it could be they have an inflated or false view of their own importance in the Emperor's plans.

Certainly in Watchers of the Throne, they had a mixed opinion of the Grey Knights, perhaps reflecting some latent anxiety about their own role. They saw the Grey Knights as siblings, in that both were created from the Emperor, but the Custodes naturally saw themselves as superior and the elder sibling. However they also had to acknowledge the Grey Knights seemed more suited for a universe where Chaos, magic, and the daemonic were widespread, so the Custodes may have been anxious about what place they had in the grand scheme, and whether perhaps the Grey Knights were the "improved" version of themselves.


Yeah in emparors legions, it's clear there more than just a military unit, theres more to them than just soldiers fighting a war.

The greyknights and far better suited to fighting deamons yes. That is there thing. Thr custodes and the grey knights are both specialised tools for specialist uses.


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

I thought the thunder warriors were attacked by super human warriors clad in black power armor, which nicely matches the description of the first legion of space marines, the dark angels, who immediately replaced the thunder warriors.The emperor was loathe to commit the Custodes to battles when he could expend less useful troops in their stead. That's exciting because some of the Primaris dark angels might be of pre-caliban stock, meaning they could know how that really went down.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

 Grimgold wrote:
I thought the thunder warriors were attacked by super human warriors clad in black power armor, which nicely matches the description of the first legion of space marines, the dark angels, who immediately replaced the thunder warriors.The emperor was loathe to commit the Custodes to battles when he could expend less useful troops in their stead. That's exciting because some of the Primaris dark angels might be of pre-caliban stock, meaning they could know how that really went down.


The Thunder Warriors rebelled and the Custodes put them down. Any Primaris Dark Angels were likely only recruits at the time they were taken as well.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







BrianDavion wrote:
yeah the GK/Custodes relationship is intreasting, makes sense too. the Custodes IMHO are "what the emperor wanted" the Grey Knights being what the emperor realized was needed


Kind of? The Grey Knights come across as more of a stopgap to me; they're an attempt to refine the Astartes to make them less vulnerable to Chaos (Marines 1.5 to the Primaris' 2.0, if you will) and a specialized Daemon-fighting force brought into being after Magnus' mess made a specialized Daemon-fighting force a thing that was necessary. The Custodes were made as bodyguards, confidants, and trusted agents able to enforce the Emperor's will across a larger Imperium in matters too sensitive to trust to more fallible operatives. Their eventual role on the frontlines of the War in the Webway was accidental, they were pressed into service there because they were the only force present that could be trusted to know what was going on as much as anything else.

So the Custodes were a force carefully designed for a completely different purpose used as a Daemon-fighting force in a manner not unlike that of a computer being used as a bludgeon (also in a manner not unlike that analogy getting shoehorned into that sentence, it's a good one but sort of tangentially applicable to the actual situation), while the Grey Knights are a Daemon-fighting force thrown together haphazardly and in haste but doing the thing for which they were designed.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan






Iracundus wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Custodians are Emperor's friends, it is said many times that they are the only individuals in all of the imperium that the honestly feels sad when they die in battle.
They aren't tools, they aren't soldiers. They are phylosophers, statemans, artists, generals, they are equals, they talked to the emperor demigod to demigod. I believe only Malcador had a closer relationship with the Emperor than the Custodes.


That's what the Custodes think. They could be fallible and wrong since we don't get to know the Emperor's view of things. It could be that they too in turn would have been expendable at some point for the Emperor.

We do know that in Watchers of the Throne, the Custodes or at least one of them, saw the Custodes as a template for a future improved humanity, rather than the Primarchs being so. This conflicts with earlier RL sources that said the Primarchs were the prototype for a future improved humanity. Again though, this is in-universe Custodes opinion, so it could be they have an inflated or false view of their own importance in the Emperor's plans.

Certainly in Watchers of the Throne, they had a mixed opinion of the Grey Knights, perhaps reflecting some latent anxiety about their own role. They saw the Grey Knights as siblings, in that both were created from the Emperor, but the Custodes naturally saw themselves as superior and the elder sibling. However they also had to acknowledge the Grey Knights seemed more suited for a universe where Chaos, magic, and the daemonic were widespread, so the Custodes may have been anxious about what place they had in the grand scheme, and whether perhaps the Grey Knights were the "improved" version of themselves.


Agreed.

Not entirely certain anything is irreplacable for the Emperor.

Check out may pan-Eldar projects http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/702683.page

Also my Rogue Trader-esque spaceport factions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709686.page

Oh, and I've come up with a semi-expanded Shadow War idea and need some feedback! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/726439.page

Lastly I contribute to a blog too! http://objectivesecured.blogspot.co.uk/ Check it out! It's not just me  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Galas wrote:
Custodians are Emperor's friends, it is said many times that they are the only individuals in all of the imperium that the honestly feels sad when they die in battle.
They aren't tools, they aren't soldiers. They are phylosophers, statemans, artists, generals, they are equals, they talked to the emperor demigod to demigod. I believe only Malcador had a closer relationship with the Emperor than the Custodes.


Are they? Emperor is shown showing different face to each persons. He makes primarch feels he is their friend and custodians aren't all that important. Then on custodes it's reversed.

One could arque is there ANYBODY that truly could be considered friend of Emperor or are all just tools for him in his quest of his grand goal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
 Grimgold wrote:
I thought the thunder warriors were attacked by super human warriors clad in black power armor, which nicely matches the description of the first legion of space marines, the dark angels, who immediately replaced the thunder warriors.The emperor was loathe to commit the Custodes to battles when he could expend less useful troops in their stead. That's exciting because some of the Primaris dark angels might be of pre-caliban stock, meaning they could know how that really went down.


The Thunder Warriors rebelled and the Custodes put them down. Any Primaris Dark Angels were likely only recruits at the time they were taken as well.


No Emperor decreed TW's time was up. Too unstable to be of use for next stage of Emperor's plan so they were to be put down replaced by marines who would have been replaced by something else had things gone as planned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 07:17:21


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Master of Mankind has some good background on this. Several times the Emperor speaks directly to the Custodes and explains that the marines, including the primarchs, are weapons who thought they were his sons. But Custodeus are the real deal.

Of course the Emperor could just say this to everyone...

"Yes of course PDF trooper #455467, you PDF are my chosen ones!"

And just for my edification, what's the latest on making Custodeus? Can they still be made? Is there a geneseed equivalent or has the secret been lost?

 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Master of Mankind has some good background on this. Several times the Emperor speaks directly to the Custodes and explains that the marines, including the primarchs, are weapons who thought they were his sons. But Custodeus are the real deal.

Of course the Emperor could just say this to everyone...


No reason to think he wouldn't be able to put up different face. Would custodes be as happy to obey if Emperor flat out told them they are tools to be discarded later when he no longer needs them?

It's hard to say what his REAL meanings are especially as we don't get all that much from his POV.

edit: Mind you I prefer it this way. Something left to imagination is just good. Not everything should be spelled out. Things are already de-mystifying HH too much IMO.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 11:50:45


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Master of Mankind has some good background on this. Several times the Emperor speaks directly to the Custodes and explains that the marines, including the primarchs, are weapons who thought they were his sons. But Custodeus are the real deal.

Of course the Emperor could just say this to everyone...

"Yes of course PDF trooper #455467, you PDF are my chosen ones!"

And just for my edification, what's the latest on making Custodeus? Can they still be made? Is there a geneseed equivalent or has the secret been lost?


Can be made. They where reduced to around 1000 in Hersey ends, they are stated in one new novel as having 10,000 ready for combat again. They take losses in one book and deploy some 4000 to combat.
(one battle, others held in reserves, secondary defense lines and taking command of the palaces vast garrison of guardsmen. They seem to have 1000+ guardsmen for some of thr custodes on the walls etc. )

Now they take losses but in a book set later they said to have rebuilt. Or a later section. Took a while but they can recover losses.

If not they would be extinct as there losses would exceed base by about 1.5 to 2 times over minimum.

The o ly thing is they are expensive and slow to make. Each one is a hand made, finely tuned rolls royce of a super human to a mass produced, regular mercades marine.

Still good. But one is far more expensive and difficult to produce.

There armour is also very expensive using a rare alloy reserved for them, Dorn and emparor. This power Armour, weapons etc also make the equipping of the 10,000 expensive process.

Not like marines who weapons, biology and so can be churned by the thousand.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 12:00:15


Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




In the novel Dark Imperium, Guilliman concluded that the Emperor loves no one, save for perhaps the abstract idea of mankind. While that is admittedly still an in-universe opinion, it is perhaps the closest to being accurate, given that Guilliman actually directly interacted with the Emperor both before and now after the Heresy, whereas the Custodes of the current era don't interact with the Emperor they guard.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maybe they've read the outcast dead.

Where an unarmed marine beats a custodes to death with his bare hands

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 13:26:30


DFTT 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

After the treatment Ra got in master of mankind, I would argue more loved tools, but tools the same.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




My personal theory/headcanon is that the Emperor doubled down on the coldness after succumbing to affection for Horus (or perhaps it was pride and hesitation at having to destroy his finest creation). The Emperor was not infallible despite what 40K in-universe Imperial characters might believe.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ute nation

Iracundus wrote:
In the novel Dark Imperium, Guilliman concluded that the Emperor loves no one, save for perhaps the abstract idea of mankind. While that is admittedly still an in-universe opinion, it is perhaps the closest to being accurate, given that Guilliman actually directly interacted with the Emperor both before and now after the Heresy, whereas the Custodes of the current era don't interact with the Emperor they guard.


When the emperor revealed his plan for mankind, even the custode he was "talking" too called it hubris. The reveal that humanity is a time bomb and going to blow up the galaxy was dire, but the emperor's plan to brainwash all of humanity to save humanity and the galaxy was the moment I was convinced the emperor is the villain of the 40k narrative. I now wonder if that's the point of the horus heresy books, to take the shine off of the emperors halo, show him not as a man, but as an insane megalomaniac who if he can't save humanity his way will make humanity extinct.

Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.  
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Grimgold wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
In the novel Dark Imperium, Guilliman concluded that the Emperor loves no one, save for perhaps the abstract idea of mankind. While that is admittedly still an in-universe opinion, it is perhaps the closest to being accurate, given that Guilliman actually directly interacted with the Emperor both before and now after the Heresy, whereas the Custodes of the current era don't interact with the Emperor they guard.


When the emperor revealed his plan for mankind, even the custode he was "talking" too called it hubris. The reveal that humanity is a time bomb and going to blow up the galaxy was dire, but the emperor's plan to brainwash all of humanity to save humanity and the galaxy was the moment I was convinced the emperor is the villain of the 40k narrative. I now wonder if that's the point of the horus heresy books, to take the shine off of the emperors halo, show him not as a man, but as an insane megalomaniac who if he can't save humanity his way will make humanity extinct.


I'd argue if he coul;dn't save humanity extinction was garenteed anyway

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Iracundus wrote:
My personal theory/headcanon is that the Emperor doubled down on the coldness after succumbing to affection for Horus (or perhaps it was pride and hesitation at having to destroy his finest creation). The Emperor was not infallible despite what 40K in-universe Imperial characters might believe.


That was actually explicit in the old Realms of Chaos books. In the classic Emp vs Horus story it explains that in order to kill his beloved son the Emperor had to divorce himself from any sense of compassion or love, leading to the grimdark Imperium we all know and love.

(his good side went on to form the Star Child and fuel the Sensei who were later killed off/retconned... ah well)


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
My personal theory/headcanon is that the Emperor doubled down on the coldness after succumbing to affection for Horus (or perhaps it was pride and hesitation at having to destroy his finest creation). The Emperor was not infallible despite what 40K in-universe Imperial characters might believe.


That was actually explicit in the old Realms of Chaos books. In the classic Emp vs Horus story it explains that in order to kill his beloved son the Emperor had to divorce himself from any sense of compassion or love, leading to the grimdark Imperium we all know and love.

(his good side went on to form the Star Child and fuel the Sensei who were later killed off/retconned... ah well)



The Sensei were never retconned. Just because an Inquisitor thinks they were a Tzeentch cult does not make that the case. People need to distinguish between in-universe opinions, which are fallible, and out of universe narrator information.
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

I base my assessment on the fact they've not been mentioned in any context in... 20 years?

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I base my assessment on the fact they've not been mentioned in any context in... 20 years?


Lack of mention is not evidence of absence.

The Scourging of Lammas has not been mentioned for about 12 years. Doesn't mean it didn't happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 10:02:22


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Getting back on topic, when one reads the short story Magistrium, it's obvious Constine Valdor holds Primarchs in exceptionally low regard. and he considers, in light of the heresy, their creation to be a mistake. so yeah I suspect the custodes generally don't think very highly of space marines in general. this makes their support of Gulliman actually intreasting. if even the custodes are throwing the dice on a primarch and a new breed of space marines...

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: