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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






the_scotsman wrote:
Understrength units is fine if it's Grots, Incubi, Wyches with a net (all they need tbh), anything but warriors really.

Or theyre RG Succubi who can advance and charge and can take move drugs. Or they're in a venom with a court. Or they're walking with coven Gribbles.

There's options and they're not bad options. I was even feeling the Archon jogging with the transports that last game - raider dark Lance's and venom splinter cannons love to reroll ones and you can disembark warriors for the double reroll and the Fire and Fade shell game.


And its Kabals that people are mostly complaining about, Reaver or Skyboard or Wings on an Archon, its not much to ask for honestly, CWE got a plastic Autarch with wings, why couldnt an Archon get one?

   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






 Blackie wrote:
Talos and grotesques are definitely underrated. If you bring lots of them with Urien's buffs they can be really good.

I'm regularly fielding 8 grotesques and 6 talos, and I'm really enjoying my monsers. I haven't tried the cronos yet which seems a bit lackluster but it would allow me to take 2x3 talos instead of 3x2 talos in the coven spearhead and I'd prefer two units instead of three. But basically for a matter of bonus range since even with all my 14 monsters (15 with the cronos) I just need to have 4 of them near Urien. Even 3 if I bring the cronos since no one would shoot it when I have grots, talos, kabalites in venoms and ravagers.


I think Grots are hands down the best unit in the book. So far NOBODY has been able to kill my 10 man unit. I usually run 2-3 talos with HWB so I can advance and fire and fade them into their face turn 1 while my 10 man grot bomb comes running up behind. I call it the midnight meat train lol. Last game they charged a knight crusader to gain some movement and with the torturers craft they nearly killed it in one damned phase. On turn 2 you burn a cp to hit on a 2 then use torturers craft and you can blender anything. The AP -2 is the sweet spot as well since most things with good armor also come with an invuln. Don't even get me started on what they do with flesh gauntlets and that combo, lets make it rain mortal wounds. The coven units are an auto take IMHO, they provide some of the most durable units in the game which is not something people expect from Drukhari. I have thought about running all 22 that I own but have been to busy trying out all the other combos this book has. My wracks have been funny. They don't kill much, but for some reason I roll stupidly hot for them in particular and they soak silly amounts of damage. I like them best in 5 man squads to fill battalion slots. With the increase in CP's from battalions I have increased desire to take my coven from one rather then a vanguard or spearhead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 lessthanjeff wrote:
I haven't been too impressed with Talos yet. I took a unit of 3 to a 26 player event this last saturday and in 2 out of 3 rounds they were killed in the first turn. I still got first place, but it was more on the backs of my grots and vehicles than the talos. I'm of the opinion grotesque are the more efficient choice and being infantry they're a bit easier to hide in buildings and get out of LOS when you need to too.


Same here, but I can't leave them home or fault them too much because I generally move them a minimum of 16" turn 1 right into my opponents face. They always die, but they soak nearly all their turn one fire and usually don't die until turn 2. Also agree on all the points on grots only don't forget that now with fly the talos suddenly can get anywhere the grots can making it a bit closer. If grots could fire and fade turn 1 I might never take talos apart from the fact that I love my conversions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
So, this is the list I came up with:

Spoiler:
Poison Tongue Battalion
Archon w/ Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Soul Seeker - 76 (Warlord: Soulthirst)
Archon w/ Huskblade, Blast Pistol, Djin Blade - 86
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
5 Kabalite Warriors w/ Blaster, Agoniser - 51
- Venom w/ Twin Splinter Rifle - 65
959

Prophets of Flesh Vanguard
Haemonculus w/ Electrocorrosive Whip, Hexrifle - 81
3 Grotesques - 105
- Raider w/ Dark Lance - 85
3 Grotesques - 105
- Raider w/ Dark Lance - 85
5 Mandrakes - 80
- Raider w/ Disintegrator - 80
541

1500pts (9CP)



The Warlord Archon goes with the Mandrakes in the Raider, the Djin Blade Archon goes with one of the Grotesque units while the Haemonculus goes with one of the other Grotesque units. The Scourges will deep strike somewhere.

Any thoughts?


Mandrakes in a Raider is a bit of an odd choice for me, not sure why they wouldn't just deep strike. I'd definitely find the space for two Lhameans to stick one in each Grotesque raider (just to act as a suicide casualty so you don't lose a grot to an unlucky roll of 1 if the transport gets shot). Otherwise, looks pretty strong to me, good little mounted force.


I've actually considered running mandrakes in a raider or venom actually. They synergize well with a venom since both have a -1 to hit, but in a raider you can also move and advance if it's red grief and still fire. I think Either option has merit. I have also played around not deep-striking scourge in order to move to better positions and fire turn 1. The FAQ made the option more worthwhile anyway.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/26 02:44:04


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Amishprn86 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Understrength units is fine if it's Grots, Incubi, Wyches with a net (all they need tbh), anything but warriors really.

Or theyre RG Succubi who can advance and charge and can take move drugs. Or they're in a venom with a court. Or they're walking with coven Gribbles.

There's options and they're not bad options. I was even feeling the Archon jogging with the transports that last game - raider dark Lance's and venom splinter cannons love to reroll ones and you can disembark warriors for the double reroll and the Fire and Fade shell game.


And its Kabals that people are mostly complaining about, Reaver or Skyboard or Wings on an Archon, its not much to ask for honestly, CWE got a plastic Autarch with wings, why couldnt an Archon get one?


HQ mobility is a crutch. A lot of armies lean on it - when was the last time you saw a unit that has a mobility option not use it? If we got a Reaver archon, every single Noble in the dark city would be buying a studded leather jacket and getting a hells Angels tattoo.

Would I have been fine with getting it, yeah. Do I think it's the #1 need for a new dark eldar kit? Noooo. We need MORE hq options. Not just ways to make them go 6" farther on the board.

One archon (the one with the trait/relic) gets a Court, one either signs on with some Incubi or just moves 8+D6 inches along with the transports if you don't want to give him five slots.

With the performances my HQs have put on in every game I've played the new codex, I'm having trouble keeping the misery train for them up.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






People ragging on the HQ's none stop is why I took a week off from tactic threads. People don't actually play with things before complaining endlessly. My Djinn blade archon is hands down better then any demon prince I have fielded from my 4 chaos armies. Mobility is good but it also gets you killed. An archon can reliably get into assault turn 2 anywhere they want. With a bike (board or wings would be flat worse) your looking at the same deal only you are tempted to be stupid turn 1 and lose him. I would rather we got a dracon then a bike if I am being honest, and even despite that the archon is very strong for their points.

I don't get the transport argument either, I put my archon in the same raider as my red grief succubus and some wyches with the one net they need. I hide it out of line of sight turn 1 and first turn I pop enhanced aether sails and assault something on their weak flank where I cannot be surrounded. The midnight meat train trucking up center field HAS to be delt with or at least slowed down. meanwhile red grief bikes are tagging important shooters. This is how you play Drukhari, maximum threat overload. Turn 2 everything should be crashing their lines.

   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

 Red Corsair wrote:
People ragging on the HQ's none stop is why I took a week off from tactic threads. People don't actually play with things before complaining endlessly. My Djinn blade archon is hands down better then any demon prince I have fielded from my 4 chaos armies. Mobility is good but it also gets you killed. An archon can reliably get into assault turn 2 anywhere they want. With a bike (board or wings would be flat worse) your looking at the same deal only you are tempted to be stupid turn 1 and lose him. I would rather we got a dracon then a bike if I am being honest, and even despite that the archon is very strong for their points.

I don't get the transport argument either, I put my archon in the same raider as my red grief succubus and some wyches with the one net they need. I hide it out of line of sight turn 1 and first turn I pop enhanced aether sails and assault something on their weak flank where I cannot be surrounded. The midnight meat train trucking up center field HAS to be delt with or at least slowed down. meanwhile red grief bikes are tagging important shooters. This is how you play Drukhari, maximum threat overload. Turn 2 everything should be crashing their lines.


I agree, I've never felt the need to have a fast drukhari HQ to be honest. The haemy does well footslogging or in a raider with grots, the archon usually has his own venom with a small court, buffs the ravagers standing near them or goes in a raider with incubi or other elites. Only the succubus can suffer from the lack of speed since you don't want to sacrifice the wyches special weapons by putting her in a raider. But with the +2''M and the fact that she can share the same venom with the archon I've never had any problem with the lack of wings/bike options for our HQs. It would be amazing model wise, sure, and variety is a quality, but I don't think it's something we really needed before the codex and we don't need it now.

 
   
Made in nl
Elite Tyranid Warrior




the_scotsman wrote:

-Fire and Fade: says you can't advance, can't charge, doesn't say you can't embark on a vehicle. I had a unit of Kabalite warriors hop out of their raider, move 12" with the disembark into an archon's aura, shoot up a unit in rapid fire, Fire and Fade 7" and embark onto a different raider, which then charged something to evade shooting on my opponent's turn.


I'm afraid this doesn't work anymore, as per the updated rulebook faq:

‘If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a
friendly transport in the Movement phase, they can
embark within it.'

Unfortunately fire and fade is used in the shooting phase and doesn't explicitly allow you to board transports like the red grief strat does (this greatly saddens my fire dragons).
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






the_scotsman wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Understrength units is fine if it's Grots, Incubi, Wyches with a net (all they need tbh), anything but warriors really.

Or theyre RG Succubi who can advance and charge and can take move drugs. Or they're in a venom with a court. Or they're walking with coven Gribbles.

There's options and they're not bad options. I was even feeling the Archon jogging with the transports that last game - raider dark Lance's and venom splinter cannons love to reroll ones and you can disembark warriors for the double reroll and the Fire and Fade shell game.


And its Kabals that people are mostly complaining about, Reaver or Skyboard or Wings on an Archon, its not much to ask for honestly, CWE got a plastic Autarch with wings, why couldnt an Archon get one?


HQ mobility is a crutch. A lot of armies lean on it - when was the last time you saw a unit that has a mobility option not use it? If we got a Reaver archon, every single Noble in the dark city would be buying a studded leather jacket and getting a hells Angels tattoo.

Would I have been fine with getting it, yeah. Do I think it's the #1 need for a new dark eldar kit? Noooo. We need MORE hq options. Not just ways to make them go 6" farther on the board.

One archon (the one with the trait/relic) gets a Court, one either signs on with some Incubi or just moves 8+D6 inches along with the transports if you don't want to give him five slots.

With the performances my HQs have put on in every game I've played the new codex, I'm having trouble keeping the misery train for them up.


So when almost every army gets something and only a couple dont its consider a crutch? No... thats not how it works, its not a crutch its a highly enjoyable QOL that we miss out on. I dont want it for OP sake, i want it for a QOL purpose. Also just b.c an HQ is goof for its points doesnt mean i dont want other options

Anyways, i dont really want an Archon/Succubus with wings, i've been asking for a Scourge HQ, that way its a generic HQ that has jump 14" for ALL subfactions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/26 09:31:23


   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





Wyldcarde wrote:
People bag the hqs a lot but my current set up has me pretty happy.
With alliance of agony and the extra relics strat I am currently running
Archon with writ and venom pistol. 72 points to buff triple dissie ravagers is pretty nice
Archon with blast pistol and djin blade. Puts out 7 attacks and threatens most targets
Succubus with red glaive and 3++ puts out a decent amount of attacks and is hard to deal with with her 3++. For 50 points is a steal.


Okay. Now try those HQs without relics and tell me they're worth their points.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 TheFleshIsWeak wrote:
Wyldcarde wrote:
People bag the hqs a lot but my current set up has me pretty happy.
With alliance of agony and the extra relics strat I am currently running
Archon with writ and venom pistol. 72 points to buff triple dissie ravagers is pretty nice
Archon with blast pistol and djin blade. Puts out 7 attacks and threatens most targets
Succubus with red glaive and 3++ puts out a decent amount of attacks and is hard to deal with with her 3++. For 50 points is a steal.


Okay. Now try those HQs without relics and tell me they're worth their points.


Good news, they still are. The archon is still the only possible problem, and really only when you don't have any other melee units to back him up. Playing pure Kabal is definitely the hardest of the three (though, surprising nobody, playing "pure" any third of the codex is always going to be suboptimal as you don't have access to the best units and you have to use less optimal choices to fill holes in your list) but even then, he's a guy with 5 S4 AP-3 D3 damage attacks, a 2++, and a blaster/blast pistol who autohits in combat.

if you try to use anyone but the writ archon as a static buffbot, yep, you're going to have a bad time.

Succubus: A 5-man wych squad is well worth its points with a Shardnet and Impaler because of their ability to lock squads down. Incredibly, this means that a succubus with the same number of wounds, an always-on 4++, and the very same ability for 10 points more is ALSO well worth its points! How bout that. No Escape with a shardnet becomes an INCREDIBLE ability, something nobody else in the entire game can do.

Haemonculus: His basic loadout is solid, he synergizes well with running alongside covens providing extra damage and his buff, he's got really great Relics and the option for either a good CP walord trait or (as I've preferred him these days) a killer close combat build as well with Ichor/Electro/Hexrifle or stinger pistol.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





the_scotsman wrote:

Good news, they still are.


Yeah, sorry, not buying it.

the_scotsman wrote:
The archon is still the only possible problem, and really only when you don't have any other melee units to back him up. Playing pure Kabal is definitely the hardest of the three (though, surprising nobody, playing "pure" any third of the codex is always going to be suboptimal as you don't have access to the best units and you have to use less optimal choices to fill holes in your list) but even then, he's a guy with 5 S4 AP-3 D3 damage attacks, a 2++, and a blaster/blast pistol who autohits in combat.


The Huskblade is AP-2 and his 2++ is lost the first time it's failed. Given that he has no mobility outside of transports and that build costs 86pts, colour me unimpressed.

the_scotsman wrote:

Succubus: A 5-man wych squad is well worth its points with a Shardnet and Impaler because of their ability to lock squads down. Incredibly, this means that a succubus with the same number of wounds, an always-on 4++, and the very same ability for 10 points more is ALSO well worth its points! How bout that. No Escape with a shardnet becomes an INCREDIBLE ability, something nobody else in the entire game can do.


Could you be any more disingenuous?

No, please, just ignore the fact that a Wych squad can have a Shardnet and Impailer *and* an Agoniser to actually do damage as well. And that's in addition to having almost 4 times as many attacks as the Succubus.

The fact that you're having to resort to this level of deceit to defend the Succubus really doesn't speak well of her.

the_scotsman wrote:

Haemonculus: His basic loadout is solid, he synergizes well with running alongside covens providing extra damage and his buff, he's got really great Relics and the option for either a good CP walord trait or (as I've preferred him these days) a killer close combat build as well with Ichor/Electro/Hexrifle or stinger pistol.


His damage is bearable, but hardly something you'd ever take him for, and his toughness buff comes an edition too late.

Also, I think it's telling how quickly you had to take it back to using Artefacts and Warlord Traits. Because that was the entire point I was making - our HQs are far too reliant on having artefacts and warlord traits to be even remotely worth their points.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Jesus. That got really aggressive really fast. Calm down, it's rules for miniatures in a board game.

I ignored the fact that the wych squad can have an agonizer because it isn't worth it to take one on a 5-man squad that dies to a stiff breeze. The reason you take the 5-man wych squad isn't for damage, it's for the utility of the No Escape rule. The wych squad is definitely better at one thing - it is super nice to be able to attack with only a single wych and then pile in on your opponent's turn to hit with all of them.

The benefit of the succubus is the fact that her 4++ works against shooting, and she doesn't need any babysitter to get her past overwatch like the wyches frequently do. The wyches do 2-3 times as much damage as she does, she's 2-3 times as difficult to kill with the always on 4++ and the all important character rule. I'm at the point where I basically never use my Relic on my succubi because this build provides so much utility.

this isn't disingenuous. This is an objectively good HQ unit that I would take in a heartbeat in any of my other close combat oriented armies that provides a utility to a melee army that nobody else does.

Artifacts and warlord traits come up so often because they give options above and beyond the basic builds. A basic Electro/hexrifle haemie is fine, won't cause any problems, but the build is basically fixed at that and you know what he's going to do. Similar to a blaster archon, or a shardnet succubus. They're providing plenty to the army, but there's just not much there to discuss, wheras with artifacts (that I've generally been using two of per army) and warlord traits (which we can have up to three of) you get a whole lot more permutation and customizability.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

I've actually come around to the Archon. He's not amazing but he's decent in combat with a Huskblade and the PGL with the Torment Grenade Strat is a brilliant source of mortal wounds.

I like the Succubus because for 50pts she's relatively killy (even with the ridiculous -1 to hit on the Archite Glaive) but most of all has a whole series of effective load outs. Does that require relics and warlord traits? Yes, but who cares, I spend the CP for an extra relic and trait every game because unlike most codecies we have a lot of really good options for both. Combined with the Obsessions and the Succubus is surprisingly versatile and can be very dangerous without ever being particularly expensive.

We all know the utility of the Haemonculus, that hasn't changed since the index.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






ha, I have the opposite feeling about the succubus when it comes to WL traits. Relics, sure, she's got tryptch whip and blood glaive and those are great, but phial bouquet is just hot garbage.

I've found if you're going WL trait on her, she's got three options:

-Precision blows with Hydra Gauntlets (only option for Cursed Blade)
-Blood Dancer with Triptch whip
-Quicksilver Fighter auto-take if you're going RG, hands down the best trait.

But if I'm just going for Cursed Blade with just one other subfaction detachment, I'll usually skip the CP for Alliance of Agony and just run two shardnet succubi. 5 attacks S4 Ap-1 D2 plus drugs is awesome for a 55 point character.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





You don't need to be great in combat. You just need to be good enough to tip the scales when joining your Kabs or Wyches.

Obviously, that tipping point varies by what they're facing in CC. And how long before they wind up there.

I hope they don't get Scourge wings, but looted Hawk wings would be fluffy.
   
Made in us
Purged Thrall





FL

I've been thinking (going to start testing when the opportunity provides) about the RG 2 cp strat. I was kinda unimpressed originally, but now I want to use it for a longrange guided consolidation. Strat says you can 6" consolidate to the nearest transport (then the boarding bits), so why not position a transport near a unit you want to engage, but beyond 10"?

I figure a squad of shardnet wyches would be best. Lets them bounce from one fight to another with no overwatch. An effective 7" melee bubble isn't anything to scoff at.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 novaspike wrote:
I've been thinking (going to start testing when the opportunity provides) about the RG 2 cp strat. I was kinda unimpressed originally, but now I want to use it for a longrange guided consolidation. Strat says you can 6" consolidate to the nearest transport (then the boarding bits), so why not position a transport near a unit you want to engage, but beyond 10"?

I figure a squad of shardnet wyches would be best. Lets them bounce from one fight to another with no overwatch. An effective 7" melee bubble isn't anything to scoff at.


That is definitely a thing you can do with them, a little niche to be sure, but doubling the range of your consolidate and allowing you to move towards something you control rather than something your opponent controls is very nice.

I'm probably biased because assault micro is one of my favorite aspects of the shift from 7th to 8th edition, but finding new ways to play with that RG strat has been one of my favorite aspects of playing the new DE so far. That and vastly superior eviscerating flybys has me on Team Red Grief for the forseeable future.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Succubi are cheap enough that it's not that big a deal even if they don't have a relic.

Haemonculi also have a nice aura that works well spread around the beefy Coven elements, and have some neat equipment options, so they also don't absolutely have to have a relic.

They also have very solid special characters, so taking Urien/Lelith and a generic with a relic is very easy.

I do see the problem for Kabals, though, and I agree that would take a cheaper Dracon HQ over jetbike options any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Archons are quite expensive, and really do need a relic to not be dead weight. Husk blade and blaster make them good in melee and shooting, but that's almost 100-point HQ choice that is one failed save away from not having a save at all.

Drazhar also sucks, so the special character caveat that applies to Covens and Cults is not really an option for Kabals.

With the increase to CPs for Battalions and Brigades, Raiding Party should be changed to +6CPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lithanial wrote:

If your opponent is just a couple of inches back, you won't even get the shredders in range until turn 2. With that in mind, Scourges deep striking turn 2 don't really lose out on much shooting vs the Kabalites, but they do get a turn of protection and a favorable position to drop to.


I wouldn't foot-slog a shredder squad up the board, but I would abuse the hell out of them with Obsidian Rose. Either Trueborn in a Flayed Skull Venom dancing around at 18", or a big blob of 20 dropping down via the Webway. The latter can punish the enemy with the Failure is Not an Option stratagem.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 07:19:53


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






HandofMars wrote:
Succubi are cheap enough that it's not that big a deal even if they don't have a relic.

Haemonculi also have a nice aura that works well spread around the beefy Coven elements, and have some neat equipment options, so they also don't absolutely have to have a relic.

They also have very solid special characters, so taking Urien/Lelith and a generic with a relic is very easy.

I do see the problem for Kabals, though, and I agree that would take a cheaper Dracon HQ over jetbike options any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Archons are quite expensive, and really do need a relic to not be dead weight. Husk blade and blaster make them good in melee and shooting, but that's almost 100-point HQ choice that is one failed save away from not having a save at all.

Drazhar also sucks, so the special character caveat that applies to Covens and Cults is not really an option for Kabals.

With the increase to CPs for Battalions and Brigades, Raiding Party should be changed to +6CPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lithanial wrote:

If your opponent is just a couple of inches back, you won't even get the shredders in range until turn 2. With that in mind, Scourges deep striking turn 2 don't really lose out on much shooting vs the Kabalites, but they do get a turn of protection and a favorable position to drop to.


I wouldn't foot-slog a shredder squad up the board, but I would abuse the hell out of them with Obsidian Rose. Either Trueborn in a Flayed Skull Venom dancing around at 18", or a big blob of 20 dropping down via the Webway. The latter can punish the enemy with the Failure is Not an Option stratagem.


This, 24" Shredders in a fast moving vehicles will get to shoot what it wants when it wants, ShredderBorns are amazing.

   
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Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Amishprn86 wrote:
HandofMars wrote:
Succubi are cheap enough that it's not that big a deal even if they don't have a relic.

Haemonculi also have a nice aura that works well spread around the beefy Coven elements, and have some neat equipment options, so they also don't absolutely have to have a relic.

They also have very solid special characters, so taking Urien/Lelith and a generic with a relic is very easy.

I do see the problem for Kabals, though, and I agree that would take a cheaper Dracon HQ over jetbike options any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Archons are quite expensive, and really do need a relic to not be dead weight. Husk blade and blaster make them good in melee and shooting, but that's almost 100-point HQ choice that is one failed save away from not having a save at all.

Drazhar also sucks, so the special character caveat that applies to Covens and Cults is not really an option for Kabals.

With the increase to CPs for Battalions and Brigades, Raiding Party should be changed to +6CPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lithanial wrote:

If your opponent is just a couple of inches back, you won't even get the shredders in range until turn 2. With that in mind, Scourges deep striking turn 2 don't really lose out on much shooting vs the Kabalites, but they do get a turn of protection and a favorable position to drop to.


I wouldn't foot-slog a shredder squad up the board, but I would abuse the hell out of them with Obsidian Rose. Either Trueborn in a Flayed Skull Venom dancing around at 18", or a big blob of 20 dropping down via the Webway. The latter can punish the enemy with the Failure is Not an Option stratagem.


This, 24" Shredders in a fast moving vehicles will get to shoot what it wants when it wants, ShredderBorns are amazing.

Where are you getting the 24" from. Shredders have 12" range, 18 with Obsidian Rose. If you include the movement of the vehicle for threat range thats still 26/28" normally, 29/31" with Flayed Skull and 32/34" for Obsidian rose for Raider/Venom.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Imateria wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
HandofMars wrote:
Succubi are cheap enough that it's not that big a deal even if they don't have a relic.

Haemonculi also have a nice aura that works well spread around the beefy Coven elements, and have some neat equipment options, so they also don't absolutely have to have a relic.

They also have very solid special characters, so taking Urien/Lelith and a generic with a relic is very easy.

I do see the problem for Kabals, though, and I agree that would take a cheaper Dracon HQ over jetbike options any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Archons are quite expensive, and really do need a relic to not be dead weight. Husk blade and blaster make them good in melee and shooting, but that's almost 100-point HQ choice that is one failed save away from not having a save at all.

Drazhar also sucks, so the special character caveat that applies to Covens and Cults is not really an option for Kabals.

With the increase to CPs for Battalions and Brigades, Raiding Party should be changed to +6CPs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lithanial wrote:

If your opponent is just a couple of inches back, you won't even get the shredders in range until turn 2. With that in mind, Scourges deep striking turn 2 don't really lose out on much shooting vs the Kabalites, but they do get a turn of protection and a favorable position to drop to.


I wouldn't foot-slog a shredder squad up the board, but I would abuse the hell out of them with Obsidian Rose. Either Trueborn in a Flayed Skull Venom dancing around at 18", or a big blob of 20 dropping down via the Webway. The latter can punish the enemy with the Failure is Not an Option stratagem.


This, 24" Shredders in a fast moving vehicles will get to shoot what it wants when it wants, ShredderBorns are amazing.

Where are you getting the 24" from. Shredders have 12" range, 18 with Obsidian Rose. If you include the movement of the vehicle for threat range thats still 26/28" normally, 29/31" with Flayed Skull and 32/34" for Obsidian rose for Raider/Venom.


Sorry, i was thinking Blasters, even so, doesnt matter, you still in range. People dont place chaff behind their good stuff, its always in front. bubble wrap, objective, etc...

   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






This is part of the reason why I think Ynnari will shake out to be the best subfaction for Kabals rather than any of the obsessions.

Kabalites care less about pfp, have multiple subfaction you want on the board for Stratagem access, and love having access to 3 really good choices for HQs. Not only can you take the triumvirate figures, but your Archons can be any subfaction for relics, traits etc. Want agents of vect but really like the famed savagery djinn blade build? Ynnati let's that happen.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






IDK, I often get crazy good mileage from inured to suffering on my warrior units. Then at turn 3 (usually run black heart) the fearless is gravy too on larger raider squads. I am not really feeling Ynarri especially after all the nerfs via FAQ's. It's clear they want to cut back on their power as each FAQ further nerf bats the gak out of them.

BTW didn't the FAQ also nerf the relic situation? You can only use the stratagem for one faction to get multiple relics?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/27 17:54:51


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Red Corsair wrote:
IDK, I often get crazy good mileage from inured to suffering on my warrior units. Then at turn 3 (usually run black heart) the fearless is gravy too on larger raider squads. I am not really feeling Ynarri especially after all the nerfs via FAQ's. It's clear they want to cut back on their power as each FAQ further nerf bats the gak out of them.

BTW didn't the FAQ also nerf the relic situation? You can only use the stratagem for one faction to get multiple relics?


All the relics are Faction: Drukhari though. You don't lose the Drukhari keyword when you gain the Ynnari keyword, you are just not entirely a <subfaction> detachment because you have to have one of the Ynnari HQs in the detachment.

Officially, there's no such thing as a Ynnari detachment anymore. The keyword for the detachment you have the Ynnari HQs in is technically Drukhari.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






That wasn't what I was referring to. I thought I remember the FAQ limiting an army to one factions relics for the multiple relic stratagem, of course I could have totally got it wrong, I can't look at the FAQ atm.

Either way, I don't really see why taking ynari over drukhari for kabal is that appealing. Not knocking the idea mind you, I just don't think it's the best subfaction. Ynari works best or I should say worked best for super hard hitting elite eldar craftworlds units. Even those have kind of had a nail driven into their coffin.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Red Corsair wrote:
That wasn't what I was referring to. I thought I remember the FAQ limiting an army to one factions relics for the multiple relic stratagem, of course I could have totally got it wrong, I can't look at the FAQ atm.

Either way, I don't really see why taking ynari over drukhari for kabal is that appealing. Not knocking the idea mind you, I just don't think it's the best subfaction. Ynari works best or I should say worked best for super hard hitting elite eldar craftworlds units. Even those have kind of had a nail driven into their coffin.



It might have. Luckily all the relics I'm considering are Drukhari. And all the models in the lists are Drukhari.

To help illustrate: a recent list I made was 1 drukhari ynnari detachment and 1 red grief detachment, both Battalions.

Red Grief had 3x5 net wych squads, 1 net succubus, 1 blast pistol/blood glaive succubus and all the transports needed by the whole list. The Ynnari detachment had a 10 man wych squad and 12 Reavers, both Strife. Yvraine and the Djinn blade archon, two Kabalite squads and a Ravager, all black heart. Then some scourges for additional Soulburst shooters.

That gets me units that use the three good soulburst types extremely effectively, Agents of Vect and No Method of Death while still letting me take an optimal Red Grief detachment for turn 1 pressure. Plus the 5cp from a battalion without a non-relic tax archon.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Seems decent, I just wouldn't suggest ynari is default for kabals. I will say however, if your in a place collection wise where it is much easier to field your stuff in one detachment and would thus lose your obsessions then it definitely does seem like a no brainer to go ynari for that detachment.

When the leaks confirmed that cults, kabals and covens were indeed split I figured I'd just mix like before since most traits from other books were meh at best and the stratagems were the real perk but that quickly changed after the obsessions dropped considering they are all really good. More over, they emphasize the way the army should play from the fluff. I just think your better off ditching Ynari, and gaining the strong obsessions. Soul burst is OK, but not anywhere near what it was (which is good, free actions should be rare).

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hey guys I've never played Dark Eldar, but am working on getting mine built and painted before they see the table. I've played against them so I have a feel of their overall style so I made a list and I was hoping I could get some critique. Just a basic synopsis

Heavy Support Detachment:
Kabal of the black heart

HQ:
(Warlord - Labyrinthine cunning) Archon -Venom blade, basic pistol. Writ of living muse

HS

X3 Ravagers - 3 Dissy cannons

Flier
X2 Razorwing Jetfighter 2 Dissy cannon

DS:

2x Venoms with double Splinter cannons
2x Venoms with single splinter cannon
Raider W/ Dissy cannon

===

Battalion Obsidian Rose

HQ:
X2 Archon, agonizer, Blaster Phantasm launcher

Troops:
X5 Kabalite warriors 5 man W/Blaster

1500 on the nose.

So yeah basic ideas in mind. DS the three ravagers in my own deployment around the archon to avoid being alpha struck. Obsidian rose dudes with extra range to ride in the slightly beefier kabal of the black heart transports. Alternative idea was to just move the transports over to the battalion and make that battalion flayed skull. I was also wondering if I was going above and beyond what I need in Dissy guns and should find points for some dark lances. I am thinking volume of fire + blasters might be enough to handle anti-tank duty.

I was also thinking of bumping up the list to 250 to include a meaty unit of reavers, but I was wondering if I can still give an auxilary detachment a chapter tactic equivalent. I don't see anything saying you wouldn't get it, but I've heard that you don't. If so my 1750 would be to throw in 250 points exactly of 10 Reavers with 3 blasters and 3 grav talons.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 03:52:19


 
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

I almost want to say you should spend a command point to get one of those Archon's a Djinn Blade. You end up spending so much on those three Archons as a tax, getting some actual potency out of one of them would help to balance the point sink
   
Made in us
Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice






Fafnir wrote:I almost want to say you should spend a command point to get one of those Archon's a Djinn Blade. You end up spending so much on those three Archons as a tax, getting some actual potency out of one of them would help to balance the point sink
I'd say why bother, one archon decked for combat isn't going to fix the hole in the list. Adding other elements and I'd agree.

Tibs Ironblood wrote:Hey guys I've never played Dark Eldar, but am working on getting mine built and painted before they see the table. I've played against them so I have a feel of their overall style so I made a list and I was hoping I could get some critique. Just a basic synopsis

Heavy Support Detachment:
Kabal of the black heart

HQ:
(Warlord - Labyrinthine cunning) Archon -Venom blade, basic pistol. Writ of living muse

HS

X3 Ravagers - 3 Dissy cannons

Flier
X2 Razorwing Jetfighter 2 Dissy cannon

DS:

2x Venoms with double Splinter cannons
2x Venoms with single splinter cannon
Raider W/ Dissy cannon

===

Battalion Obsidian Rose

HQ:
X2 Archon, agonizer, Blaster Phantasm launcher

Troops:
X5 Kabalite warriors 5 man W/Blaster

1500 on the nose.

So yeah basic ideas in mind. DS the three ravagers in my own deployment around the archon to avoid being alpha struck. Obsidian rose dudes with extra range to ride in the slightly beefier kabal of the black heart transports. Alternative idea was to just move the transports over to the battalion and make that battalion flayed skull. I was also wondering if I was going above and beyond what I need in Dissy guns and should find points for some dark lances. I am thinking volume of fire + blasters might be enough to handle anti-tank duty.

I was also thinking of bumping up the list to 250 to include a meaty unit of reavers, but I was wondering if I can still give an auxilary detachment a chapter tactic equivalent. I don't see anything saying you wouldn't get it, but I've heard that you don't. If so my 1750 would be to throw in 250 points exactly of 10 Reavers with 3 blasters and 3 grav talons.




I like the individual parts but the list isn't wowing me. You built a gun line army using a codex that is arguably the most dynamic in the game currently and possibly ever. Beyond that DE don't do gunlines well. Sure you guaranteed the ravagers have at least 1 volley, which is a good tactic but without meaningful turn 1 threats to the opponent they will still lose out to better gun lines. That said, none of the units you have there are bad, your just going to end up with more options in the end. You really do want coven or cult in there.

Personally if I were starting from scratch I would go coven first easily. For 350 pts 10 grotesques are just stupidly good, and they fill all the holes DE have. You also then get talos that can fire and fade up the table turn 1, with HWB so you can advance and fire your looking at a minimum move of 16" out the gate. This is the type of forward pressure the DE need. Basically force them to deal with something that is inefficient to deal with while your shooting units fly around scoring and shooting.

Sounds like you want to go cult though, so I'd suggest MSU for them. 250 pts for reavers is too much IMO. That unit is not actually meaty at all. It also seduces you into burning all your CP's on them. Your making an incredible target of them, so then you burning 2 for LF reflexes, and generally 2 for moral and we haven't even done damage yet, couple that with the 3 ravagers using screaming jets and your basically out of CP's. Better to split them int 3x3, tie down 3 targets turn one, make them more annoying as targets and put them into an outrider for +1 rather then -1 CP. Use the blaster cost and odd bike to buy the succubus and arm her.

I am also not a massive fan of going all in on dissys. I find them incredibly fickle at AT, I hate letting my opponent roll saves, the more saves they roll, the more they pass. So sure mathhammer can tell me how great they are on a 5 turn average, but if ! roll flat or my opponent makes a few saves turn 1 I am hosed. Personally I still seem to do all my AT with darklight. Dissys murder elite infantry but you don't see much of that these days. Darklight can be equally fickle don't get me wrong, last game I played a rolled 3 1's in a row for blasters to wound rolls, but the difference is when I do hit and wound my opponent usually doesn't get to make a roll. Everyone has different experience with it though so I'd suggest you just use magnets and try both.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/29 21:03:15


   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Chicago, IL

Has anyone given any thought to how Dark Eldar might sync up with Harlequins in light of the new DE codex? Obviously, much will likely change given that the Quins will be getting a new codex in a few weeks.

I have a very large Harlequin force, and am looking at Dark Eldar for some gap plugging and a little variety. I like the idea of using Cabal for cheap troops, as Harlequins often have a hard time dealing with hordes/chaff. Cult also looks good for the same reason, plus Shardnet wyches sounds like they could really help if you need to keep something locked up
   
 
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