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Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






However it plays out, I’m expecting a mixed bag of satisfaction and disappointment. It’s a major, if not outright landmark series ending. So I feel the mixed bag is inevitable.

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 Compel wrote:
Part of me feels the only feasible way they can end the show now, without everyone rioting, is Sansa and Tyrion sharing the throne.

Although, the key part of that sentence is "without everyone rioting." - There's a whole lot of things they could do, some have been mentioned in previous posts.

It may be that they do stick with the whole "subverting expectations" thing (How I've come to loathe that phrase after The Last Jedi) and it could practically be anyone...


Personally I do think, if the recent episodes have demonstrated anything, Game of Thrones, at the end of the day, won't end up being some great major impact event TV series that redefined television.

Instead, it will be 'remembered' in history as the 'Lost' of the 2010's.


UUUUghh Subverting expectations is one of the biggest and worst excuses for bad writing going. Doing the expected thing is perfectly fine if its done well.

Comparision to Lost is a little unfair - they have good soild seasons with consistantly good characters and plots - it was not made up as they went along.

I do think alot of people will be dispaointed by the ending and for some unknown reason some poeple think thats the aim of making films /tv - god knows why.

They have a whole hour and half to make a good finalie - thats more than enough, in my view the dieal length of a film - lets just hope they don;t waste it (further)

I do think they will set up the prequal with Bran the Boring.

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Dominating Dominatrix






Southeastern PA, USA

There will be plenty disappointed by the outcome, I'm sure.

I don't really care about the specific outcome...I just want it to be well-written. And although I know I've been very negative about this season, I'm still rooting for them to stick the landing on Sunday.

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I’m open to the concept that the finale will tie it all off, hence being keen to have the chance to binge the whole thing, beginning to end,

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 gorgon wrote:
There will be plenty disappointed by the outcome, I'm sure.



In some fairness, I don't think that there is a possible ending that could possibly make everyone happy. Nerds are a hard bunch to please.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
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Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Some thoughts:
EP4
The surprise attack made little sense, we still don't know why euron just didn't finish off the rest of the unsullied. Instead, he gave up took missandei (off-screen), then teleported back to kings landing with his mystical fleet of doom. Then he somehow during the battle missed every single shot from 50 - 70 ballistae while shooting at dany's dragon.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Spoiler:

Okay, ranting time. My main issues are character motivations, character agency, and character consequences for their actions... The main crux of this show has always been character motivations have consequences for their actions... This season been nothing to do with consequences directly and always feel contrived because of what is being written.

The Cersei looking out a window for like two episodes removed the agency and power of that character. She has DONE NOTHING This season directly. She didn't command, she didn't do anything but have the golden company. She just sat or stood in place drinking wine, but nothing very interesting or conducive to her character happened till she got well murdered by rocks. That is something I despise about this season is that all the women have been portrayed negatively. It is extremely sexist writing with characters who should have agency DONT.

This all felt so forced for this character.

Cersei could've done so much like lighting all the wildfire caches while dany's army attacked. This would force dany to go crazy as well fearing Jon and grey worm dying. She sees now the only way to save her army or take vengeance for her dragon rhaegal would be to attack Cersei head on and burn down the red keep thus killing everyone inside including refugees. Instead, we get this very forced and unearned moment where dany goes crazy with only two episodes of build up. And if that. If these writers KNEW dany was going to go crazy they did not set her up to do so. hence table-flip by most people.

I still loved most of the episodes but nothing felt earned for these characters.
Would give a bit more agency to some characters, and would remove the worst part of the show (euron) from interacting and being a sniper. Euron is the worst part of the adaptation thus far, and even the actor of Euron wishes it was BOOK Euron and not this swashbuckling jack sparrow. He feels out of place in this medieval environment

He isn't interesting, he just teleports around and does crap. WE DON'T HATE His character, people hate how he is written into the show, he feels forced, and contrived.

Her going mad has not to be eluded to but for the past two episodes, we can see this when they forced the audience to see very specific times where she :

1. watched her brother die who had abused her, promised to rape her, and more and she watched him die because she hated him was shown to be a victory moment for her, is now shown to be negative?

2. When she murdered the slave masters who had hung children from crosses and dany executed the slave masters in the same way because she hated slave owners.

3. Her entire motivation and arc has been: "I am not my father." throughout the series she has shown empathy, and became sad when her dragon killed an innocent child and locked up her dragons, and then executed those who did not obey her... like most monarchs.

And then we get to this episode and we have no character reasons as to why she does go mad. She has no agency to her character for the entire season. (Not even getting into Jon snow who is just been a glorified extra the whole season and has done nothing of worthwhile in the past three episodes, yes he gathered allies, but has done nothing DIRECTLY to influence the episodes)

This show feels rushed, insanely contrived, and characters feel flat compared to what they were before. I love this show to death, but man oh man I cannot handle how poorly they've handled the characters and the plot. If they had taken their time with a full season instead of this rush job the show would've been better.

We are seeing the issue of rushing on a deadline, the writers clearly do not care about this world as much as the audience does. Because of this, there are so many inconsistencies that it is amazing how many mistakes are in this season with character motivations, character names, characters just disappearing entirely from existence, or travel time.

The characters motivations as it right now does not make sense as someone doesn't just snap without declining abilities to reason. A similar character would be Ramsay or Joffery. Ramsay was always crazy, and Joffery was just a spoiled child/brat who didn't understand consequences.

They could change so much with this feeling of disappointment with:

Rhaegal to die in the battle for kings landing it would at least FEEL earned for Dany to go Mad Queen. (baring other things happening, her world collapsing and her loyal servants being wounded thus JUSTIFYING her actions to herself)

Missandei dying to artillery or being captured in the middle of a raid... (Which would add some credibility to the field battles)

Jon failing to protect Missandei from the Mountain and being wounded.

Bran controlling something and contributing to the story after his arc.

Arya being wounded during the fighting by scared refugees.

Cersei lighting the wildfire to kill some of Dany's soldiers and succeeds but is caught in an explosion from dany's dragon in retribution and is being crushed by a statue of a stag. (METAPHOR)

Jamie then mercy killing his sister who was dying from the fallen statue in love and running off to ring the bells for the cities surrender and then succumbing to the wildfire as it consumes him and most of the city,

All these are far more worthwhile than what the audience got was silly character motivations and feeling like all the characters are reading from a script and not acting as characters, but actors reading a script. This ranged from Vary's doubting Dany's reign when she has DONE NOTHING TO WARRANT THE DOUBT! Other than she is a woman. (When was Varys ever sexist?) To Euron the mystical pirate sniper and Sansa not trusting Dany for no reason whatsoever.

So much of this could've been prevented if they had taken their time to build characters and their relationships.

Character motivations would be far more interesting and would give agency to ALL these characters if they took their time to build them. I do not like this show anymore and it saddens me that it does.

Any way /rant over.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I don't watch "Line of Duty" but I've been really jealous of it and its season finale recently. - People seemed to have been big fans of the show, maybe not in as high as numbers as Game of Thones, but just as passionate (from what I've seen).

And the latest finale had, if not everyone, then at least, the vast vocal majority of the fans of the show really positive and excited about it.

So, I think it's possible. But yeah, not likely with the current evidence.
   
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The Conquerer






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I'm feeling slightly disappointed by this episode, for many of the reasons covered by Asherian.

They really needed 2-3 more episodes this season. They had almost 2 freaking years to do it.

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They have been rushed, but I cannot disagree with the general outline we are getting this season. What I hate is the long take shots that do nothing. Get rid of half of the length of some of the shots and we get a bit more development.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'm feeling slightly disappointed by this episode, for many of the reasons covered by Asherian.

They really needed 2-3 more episodes this season. They had almost 2 freaking years to do it.


Yes. The things I'm not happy about generally were because they felt abrupt; if they had fleshed out (say) the battle for winterfell or Daenerys mental state & alienation from her alliance for even one more episode, all of those things would have felt more natural.

It was the race there that broke the destination, I think.

I am still enjoying it, though. Even "bad" Game of Thrones is still absolutely amazing.
   
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Cabin Zombie






Has it been mentioned here yet that apparently HBO Offered them a bigger budget to do a full ten episodes and they turned them down and said six was plenty?

 
   
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Wow if thats true. Who turns down a bigger budget?

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LA

They were just eager to be done with it and move on, on to the next project (SW). Sounds like burn out to me.

 
   
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Norn Queen






Dublin, Ireland

Watched e5 last night.
Not much to add except to echo that I thought it was utter garbage, real dross tbh.
Melancholy when you look back at some of the borderline genius they had in earlier seasons.
Lets this lame dog be put down quickly.....

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Courageous Beastmaster





I think what D&D mostly needed was a book to adapt. I can't help but notice the quality of the show is dependant on the scource material. The best seasons are based on the best books. And George got stuck trying to give every character a good story, the story as a whole is no longer good in books 4/5. And the more time goes on the more I fear for book 6 let alone 7.

There is not a single writing advice out there that says make it longer. Quite the opposite in fact. I'd rather have high octane shorter bad writing than drawn out bad writing. I think the last time the writers tried to write like GRRM we got season 5, I don't wanne go back there. Peter jackson had practically infinite budget and time for the Hobbit. Didn't quite work out.

The only thing I can think of that would make the writing better is simply taking more passes at it. But even then I have my doubts. This story basically demands 3 different kinds of finale.

TLDR: I don't think adding 1 or 2 episodes would have improved the season.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/16 12:29:01





 
   
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Scotland

I just find the idea that the writing is trash now to be laughable. If anything Daenery's being unstable is one of the few things that's been consistently built up through the good and the bad.

 Earth127 wrote:
Peter jackson had practically infinite budget and time for the Hobbit. Didn't quite work out.


It's literally the opposite of this.
   
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Sorry I meant screentime.




 
   
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Dominating Dominatrix






Southeastern PA, USA

 Thargrim wrote:
They were just eager to be done with it and move on, on to the next project (SW). Sounds like burn out to me.


I didn't want to believe this, but based on some interviews...it's possible that it was a factor. I doubt that a few more episodes would have solved anything, though. I believe GRRM said in an interview that the show could have used another season or two, and I think he's probably right. Might have been hard to keep this cast together for another two seasons, though.

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I can understand the actors wanting to move on, but not the first time someone in a cast thinks they are missing all of these great opportunities and jump out only to find a very empty career and few opportunities.

I can also think of many of the ends they are trying to tie up being done better, but I do liken it to being pretty good compared to other drivel we see.

I am so sad to have both of my shows with their long seasons having final episodes this week - Big Bang Theory and GOT. I will greatly miss both shows, especially GOT and do look forward to any spin-offs offered, but will have to keep in mind that the first few seasons of GOT had a very small budget and big battles and 'splosions did not happen until the series started to garner acclaim and $. I recall the battle of Blackwater Bay in season 2(?) was a huge CGI investment and cost as much and many of the previous episodes combined. Lately, we have been getting CGI 'splosion fests every episode.

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UK

 gorgon wrote:
 Thargrim wrote:
They were just eager to be done with it and move on, on to the next project (SW). Sounds like burn out to me.


I didn't want to believe this, but based on some interviews...it's possible that it was a factor. I doubt that a few more episodes would have solved anything, though. I believe GRRM said in an interview that the show could have used another season or two, and I think he's probably right. Might have been hard to keep this cast together for another two seasons, though.


I think they had plenty of time to a great ending - they have what 9 hours - thats three Long feature films to do this. If they can't then thats on them IMO.

Pacing is really not GRMs strong point these days given last two books. I don't know how constrained the writters were to end it as GRm wanted or the opposite. They seem to have included characters that they had no real interest in (Bran) for that reason?

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"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

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Devon, UK

 Grey Templar wrote:
Wow if thats true. Who turns down a bigger budget?


Somebody who's lost access to the source material and doesn't feel like they've got it in them to write that much more original stuff?

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Yeah I don't think time constraints are really the problem - the apparent use of fast travel all throughout this season is irksome, but ultimately a nitpick.

Infinitely worse is the heel turn that feel less like a payoff to seven seasons of real underlying hostility and more like the result of an inferiority complex that manifested all of four episodes ago. Or the fact that the dragon slaying superweapon apparently only works if its mounted on a ship that can materialize within firing range of its airborne target without the airborne seeing it. Or the way important characters can be trampled, ripped apart, blown up, set on fire, thrown from high heights, etc, but can only actually be killed by other important characters now.

Really, I'm fine where the characters are going but the underlying philosophy of how they're making the show now is a complete reversal of what drew me to it in the first place.

One more episode to go.

   
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I'm hoping the tinfoil hat theory about Jaime not being dead (he might have had some Brienne plot armour err rub off on him) and doing the double on crazy Targ slaying

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Southeastern PA, USA

 Mr Morden wrote:
I don't know how constrained the writters were to end it as GRm wanted or the opposite. They seem to have included characters that they had no real interest in (Bran) for that reason?


I would lay money that for the material covered so far this season, they've had few constraints from GRRM's side. I don't think he's a puppetmaster. From that one interview I read, it sounds like he loses plenty of battles over creative decisions.

As you know, there is no 'dark lord' in the books, and it stands to reason that the confrontation with the Others will be quite different there. I think most of this season has been entirely made up by the showrunners. GRRM made have had an outline, but an outline is only that. And he isn't even done writing the book *before* the one that will cover this part of the story. Now, I imagine that this episode will probably be GRRM's conclusion in a general sense. It makes sense that he knows the finish line. But he's still figuring out the story right up to that point, so I don't know how much direction he has to give.

I can imagine that the showrunners had to deal with all kinds of other constraints, though.




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Im just looking forward to the end now. The show has taken a nosedive down gaksville this season. Seems like its juts a 'lets wrap em up and count $$$' onto the next one case.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Azreal13 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Wow if thats true. Who turns down a bigger budget?


Somebody who's lost access to the source material and doesn't feel like they've got it in them to write that much more original stuff?


Especially when said source material leads in a million disparate directions and paints them into a lot of corners, story-wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Captain Joystick wrote:
Yeah I don't think time constraints are really the problem - the apparent use of fast travel all throughout this season is irksome, but ultimately a nitpick.


Never understood this complaint. Does anyone watch this or any other show for the purpose of watching the logistics of glacial travel? If the plot requires someone can or cannot get there in time, then it's worth mentioning, but otherwise who cares, truly?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/16 19:35:49


 
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Ouze wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Yeah I don't think time constraints are really the problem - the apparent use of fast travel all throughout this season is irksome, but ultimately a nitpick.


Never understood this complaint. Does anyone watch this or any other show for the purpose of watching the logistics of glacial travel? If the plot requires someone can or cannot get there in time, then it's worth mentioning, but otherwise who cares, truly?


People who liked the fact that the "glacial" pace in the earlier parts of the show allowed for lots of character development which the latter seasons could have done with more of? People who have a standard of suspension of disbelief that's higher than "it's a genre show, better flick the old Brain Off switch then"?

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UK

I didn't mind the fast travel - as long as it was obvious time was passed and there was not a narrative need to show that time is taken.

So we sailed over in a few weeks is fine.

"Run to the wall and fetch Dany" was stupid and annoying.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Ouze wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Wow if thats true. Who turns down a bigger budget?


Somebody who's lost access to the source material and doesn't feel like they've got it in them to write that much more original stuff?


Especially when said source material leads in a million disparate directions and paints them into a lot of corners, story-wise.


It really would not have been difficult to stretch a couple more episodes out of this season. Nor would it have been difficult to just write Euron Ex Machina a little better so he's more believable.

1) Dispense with Danny going crazy. It makes zero sense given the show as a whole to have her do a 180 personality flip in a mere 3 episodes. Yes, other characters have worried about her going crazy, but thats not the proper way to work your way to it happening. You have to have a slow slide into it.

2) Add an episode, perhaps with the Golden company performing an offensive attack up north to slow the pace down. We get some tension as they fight a losing battle at the Tridant, then Dany swoops in and saves the day with the Dragons. We got more character development and just more time so the whole thing feels less forced.

3) Just have Euron wound Rheagol/maybe Drogon, that would be more than sufficient to give Dany a bloody nose and make the ballista seem a threat. Much better than having them be an overwhelming threat in episode 4 and then in episode 5 they turn out to be worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yodhrin wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Yeah I don't think time constraints are really the problem - the apparent use of fast travel all throughout this season is irksome, but ultimately a nitpick.


Never understood this complaint. Does anyone watch this or any other show for the purpose of watching the logistics of glacial travel? If the plot requires someone can or cannot get there in time, then it's worth mentioning, but otherwise who cares, truly?


People who liked the fact that the "glacial" pace in the earlier parts of the show allowed for lots of character development which the latter seasons could have done with more of? People who have a standard of suspension of disbelief that's higher than "it's a genre show, better flick the old Brain Off switch then"?


Exactly. We've had no character development in this season, at least not good development. Its all rushed and forced, which has led to the situations and battles feeling completely unrealistic.

Euron is apparently invincible and has godlike powers, which really runs counter to everything this show has done previously. He defeats the Sand Snakes with no effort. He kills Rhaegol with no effort, despite a previous episode showing a ballista be relatively useless against a dragon. He manages to teleport his fleet around Westeros with no effort.

For this to be acceptable, they would have had to introduce Euron 3-4 seasons ago and establish how he is this good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/16 21:21:16


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Yodhrin wrote:
 Ouze wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Yeah I don't think time constraints are really the problem - the apparent use of fast travel all throughout this season is irksome, but ultimately a nitpick.


Never understood this complaint. Does anyone watch this or any other show for the purpose of watching the logistics of glacial travel? If the plot requires someone can or cannot get there in time, then it's worth mentioning, but otherwise who cares, truly?


People who liked the fact that the "glacial" pace in the earlier parts of the show allowed for lots of character development which the latter seasons could have done with more of? People who have a standard of suspension of disbelief that's higher than "it's a genre show, better flick the old Brain Off switch then"?


I meant the literal mechanics of showing that time has passed. I dunno why you jumped to that weird second point when I said myself on this exact page of the thread that I also wanted more character development.


 Grey Templar wrote:
2) Add an episode, perhaps with the Golden company performing an offensive attack up north to slow the pace down. We get some tension as they fight a losing battle at the Tridant, then Dany swoops in and saves the day with the Dragons. We got more character development and just more time so the whole thing feels less forced.


That would also lay down some good groundwork for the scorpion attack being more shocking - seeing them again be essentially unstoppable.

I think I mentioned it earlier, but I would have been good with how Rhaegal had died if they had added literally 5 more minutes to the scene: they see the Iron Fleet, attack, burn a few ships; the scorpions prove ineffective - mostly missing, doing little when they hit, very slow and ponderous to reload - and then one gets lucky and scores a hit in the eye. Good precedent for this in the books - this is how Meraxes was killed.

Eh, it is what it is.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/16 22:54:25


 
   
 
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