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 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The devastation of Baal is probably a good read then.
I've heard it is. Though they get dues-ex saved at the end. Lame.



It's like the 2nd time Blood Angels have been *nearly* wiped out by tyranids but tyranids are beaten back last minute, yadda yadda yadda.

As a nid player we even lose the majority of the time in our codex vs marines! Kinda funny!


The curse of having absolutely no plot armor.
   
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The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.
   
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I would have accepted if the the deus-ex was just Kha'Banda and a legion of daemons. Instead it was fething. Dam. Ultramarines. Again. AGAIN. I am SO SICK of fething Ultramarines being smeared across everyone's fluff.
   
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 dan2026 wrote:
The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.

Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.

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 Charistoph wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.

Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.


We all know what will happen, who ever wins will be defeated by...ULTRAMARINES !
   
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 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.

Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.

We all know what will happen, who ever wins will be defeated by...ULTRAMARINES !

That is SOOO true. Or at least, which ever Chapter is up next for a supplement, an Angels or the Wolves.

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 LunarSol wrote:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The devastation of Baal is probably a good read then.
I've heard it is. Though they get dues-ex saved at the end. Lame.



It's like the 2nd time Blood Angels have been *nearly* wiped out by tyranids but tyranids are beaten back last minute, yadda yadda yadda.

As a nid player we even lose the majority of the time in our codex vs marines! Kinda funny!


The curse of having absolutely no plot armor.


It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.

It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.

I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/27 18:55:33


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 Charistoph wrote:
 AngryAngel80 wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
The most interesting Tyranid fights are when they are battling more unusual armies like Orks and Daemons.

Like the area where everyone else is scared as to who will win between 'Nids and Orks? Either the Orks will come out massively numerous and strong from all the fighting, or all the added biomass of all the Waaaghs heading in to it will be added to the Hive Fleets.

We all know what will happen, who ever wins will be defeated by...ULTRAMARINES !

That is SOOO true. Or at least, which ever Chapter is up next for a supplement, an Angels or the Wolves.

If I remember correctly that war has unfortunately ended with the birth of the Great Rift separating the 2 factions. Making it basically an inconclusive draw. Damn shame as that war was one of my favorite pieces of fluff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/27 19:02:13


 
   
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Voss wrote:
Spoiler:
 LunarSol wrote:
 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The devastation of Baal is probably a good read then.
I've heard it is. Though they get dues-ex saved at the end. Lame.



It's like the 2nd time Blood Angels have been *nearly* wiped out by tyranids but tyranids are beaten back last minute, yadda yadda yadda.

As a nid player we even lose the majority of the time in our codex vs marines! Kinda funny!


The curse of having absolutely no plot armor.


It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.

It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.

I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.
Well I think the thing to remember is the "defeats" for Tyranids is generally after they've already annihilated 10/100s of worlds. They're like big waves crashing on the shores of the Imperium, and when each wave finally loses momentum and disperses/turns back it's a "win" for the Imperium.

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I think it is a symptom of each factions battletome being biased towards them. Which is fun and even desirable, but IMO GW takes it two steps too far. They make it seem like the faction can never lose.
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think it is a symptom of each factions battletome being biased towards them. Which is fun and even desirable, but IMO GW takes it two steps too far. They make it seem like the faction can never lose.


Which is exactly the kind of thing that they want people to read. It gives people hype for the army that they chose. Few people get EVERY Codex. They'll get one or two for the armies they play.

I don't see anything wrong with having their lore and timelines full of their victories rather than their defeats. Yeah, mentioning one or two pyrrhic victories or close defeats might be good, but follow that up with a story of revenge or something to keep things interesting.
   
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drbored wrote:
...I don't see anything wrong with having their lore and timelines full of their victories rather than their defeats. Yeah, mentioning one or two pyrrhic victories or close defeats might be good, but follow that up with a story of revenge or something to keep things interesting...


The "My army is too weak, according to the lore they need to curbstomp everyone because my book says they never lose!" threads about "accurately representing the fluff" are a bit of a problem.

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Until I get guardsmen without number and many orbital bombardments every turn, my guard are too weak, GW do something.

Edit: We used to say guard died so easy and often in the fluff that every planet in the universe even planets humans never landed on have thousands of dead and dying guardsmen there as soon as you land. That's just how often they die to everything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/28 00:44:16


 
   
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Did Guardsmen ever have a Without Number type of rule? I vaguely recall such a thing but I don't know. In 2nd Ed they got a Preliminary Bombardment that represented off-board artillery barrage before the game began. Imo Guard should still have some capability to represent that sort of thing.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Guard had a limited type without number thing for conscripts once upon a time, it didn't work very well and generally didn't get used but it was there.

I agree though armies in general should have some more fun rules as opposed to it all being tied into strats. I actually miss the days before strats and gotcha tactics being so all over the place.
   
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drbored wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think it is a symptom of each factions battletome being biased towards them. Which is fun and even desirable, but IMO GW takes it two steps too far. They make it seem like the faction can never lose.


Which is exactly the kind of thing that they want people to read. It gives people hype for the army that they chose. Few people get EVERY Codex. They'll get one or two for the armies they play.

I don't see anything wrong with having their lore and timelines full of their victories rather than their defeats. Yeah, mentioning one or two pyrrhic victories or close defeats might be good, but follow that up with a story of revenge or something to keep things interesting.
Totally, but what we have now is too much of a good thing. Books make it seem like the army's strengths are insurmountable, and it's flaws trivial. They come across as more or less undefeatabile, even bordering Mary Sue status at times. It is a case where for me, less would be more. If they aren't unbeatable, if they do have trouble dealing with stuff sometimes, if they have suffered notable setbacks, then the victories mean something. When they walk over everything then winning doesn't mean anything because that is simply all they ever do.
   
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Insectum7 wrote:Did Guardsmen ever have a Without Number type of rule? I vaguely recall such a thing but I don't know. In 2nd Ed they got a Preliminary Bombardment that represented off-board artillery barrage before the game began. Imo Guard should still have some capability to represent that sort of thing.

I seem to remember the later 3rd Ed/early 4th Ed Codices having it, but I don't have that copy any more. I remember Conscripts being a lone unit then (but i'ts been a while), and the capacity was with a Chapter Tactic style Regiment ability, but again, it's been years since I looked at that book.

The 5th Edition one had Commander Chenkov who would allow for Conscript Squads to have the rule for 75 points, which started at 80 points for 20, but could also add 30 more. Coscripts were required to be part of the Infantry Platoon at the time, too, so Command Squad and 2 Infantry Squads were required before you purchased them.

Chenkov disappeared for the 6th Edition codex, and I think with him the last mention of that ability, along with any specific written requirement for Platoon squads only being purchased as part of a Platoon.

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 Charistoph wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:Did Guardsmen ever have a Without Number type of rule? I vaguely recall such a thing but I don't know. In 2nd Ed they got a Preliminary Bombardment that represented off-board artillery barrage before the game began. Imo Guard should still have some capability to represent that sort of thing.

I seem to remember the later 3rd Ed/early 4th Ed Codices having it, but I don't have that copy any more. I remember Conscripts being a lone unit then (but i'ts been a while), and the capacity was with a Chapter Tactic style Regiment ability, but again, it's been years since I looked at that book.

The 5th Edition one had Commander Chenkov who would allow for Conscript Squads to have the rule for 75 points, which started at 80 points for 20, but could also add 30 more. Coscripts were required to be part of the Infantry Platoon at the time, too, so Command Squad and 2 Infantry Squads were required before you purchased them.

Chenkov disappeared for the 6th Edition codex, and I think with him the last mention of that ability, along with any specific written requirement for Platoon squads only being purchased as part of a Platoon.

I've got a copy of the 3.5 dex, and I couldn't find any Without Number sort of rule (nor do I recall seeing one there). Unless it was present in one of the campaign books/WD (or possibly the 2e 'dex - just got a copy a month back and gave it a first read, and while I don't recall anything like that there either, I don't know it nearly as well as the 3.5e/5e 'dexes), I don't think we had that before Chenkov.

Also, to note: I don't believe we ever had Without Number for anything other than Conscripts (barring the 8e Valhallan Stratagem). I'm sure many a narrative/campaign/scenario game was played with a Guard player who could respawn units, but that would have been bespoke.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/03/28 03:07:06


 
   
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drbored wrote:
I wouldn't wish the Ynnari treatment on my worst enemies.

And Guard players are generally pretty happy because the models don't look as lumpy. Yeah they're old, but they're not 'this is obviously a single piece of pewter' old.


Guard players are not happy. They maybe in plastic but they look like gak.

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I don't want to presume to know drbored's mind, but he may have been thinking of our vehicles (which, IMO, are fine) rather than our infantry.
   
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Voss wrote:
It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.

It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.

I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.


I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've always felt like 'Tyranids can't win because when they win everyone dies and it's game over' is an argument that rather misses the point.

We read about Tyranid wins in the backstory- all the no-name planets that get eaten by Tyranids on their way to wherever they'll lose to Space Marines. But those battles are never 'on-screen' per se, and GW, for whatever reason, isn't willing to write darker stories where the Space Marines show up and try their hardest and still lose.

So when nearly every single story involving Tyranids boils down to 'oh no, the Tyranids have eaten thirteen planets you've never heard of before and now they're approaching Ultramar, will Captain Beefcake and his sidekicks Slab Bulkhead and Buff Hardmeat be able to stop them? (don't worry the answer is yes)' it gets incredibly stale.

My favorite Tyranid-related novel is Desert Raiders, because when the protagonists are Imperial Guard fighting over a backwater planet with no setting-wide importance, you have no idea how it's actually going to end. That's a refreshing change of pace. Don't get my avatar wrong, I was rooting for the Guard- it's fun to have a book where there are real stakes for the protagonists. You don't usually get that from Marine novels or Marine-centric tabletop plotlines.

We could very well have a campaign storyline where the Blood Angels deploy to support Planet Whatever and... lose, despite their best efforts. A company of Marines can be conjured out of thin air and Planet Whatever doesn't have to be a big important named planet, so there's no actual lasting consequences. GW just seems really averse to letting the bad guys beat the heroic Space Marines, so it doesn't happen.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/04/05 18:02:40


 
   
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 catbarf wrote:
Voss wrote:
It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.

It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.

I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.


I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've always felt like 'Tyranids can't win because when they win everyone dies and it's game over' is an argument that rather misses the point.

We read about Tyranid wins in the backstory- all the no-name planets that get eaten by Tyranids on their way to wherever they'll lose to Space Marines. But those battles are never 'on-screen' per se, and GW, for whatever reason, isn't willing to write darker stories where the Space Marines show up and try their hardest and still lose.

So when nearly every single story involving Tyranids boils down to 'oh no, the Tyranids have eaten thirteen planets you've never heard of before and now they're approaching Ultramar, will Captain Beefcake and his sidekicks Slab Bulkhead and Buff Hardmeat be able to stop them? (don't worry the answer is yes)' it gets incredibly stale.

My favorite Tyranid-related novel is Desert Raiders, because when the protagonists are Imperial Guard fighting over a backwater planet with no setting-wide importance, you have no idea how it's actually going to end. That's a refreshing change of pace. Don't get my avatar wrong, I was rooting for the Guard- it's fun to have a book where there are real stakes for the protagonists. You don't usually get that from Marine novels or Marine-centric tabletop plotlines.

We could very well have a campaign storyline where the Blood Angels deploy to support Planet Whatever and... lose, despite their best efforts. A company of Marines can be conjured out of thin air and Planet Whatever doesn't have to be a big important named planet, so there's no actual lasting consequences. GW just seems really averse to letting the bad guys beat the heroic Space Marines, so it doesn't happen.


Yeah remember the absolutely awesome, metal storyline of Space Hulk, where canonically many of the blood angels in the box get eaten by genestealers? And you had one of the models I think the Lightning Claw one who has a heroic last stand holding a corridor, and his sculpt has all gouges and wounds in it because it's from that scene in the fiction book?

That's something you lose with GW's current "talk a big game about the imperium being beset on all sides, but space marines are basically always depicted as winning". There's only so long before it starts to feel like He-Man or some other old 1980s kids cartoon - there's only so many times Skeletor can get beaten before you start questioning WHY the heroic heroes are always 'on the back foot' at the beginning of the episode.

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 catbarf wrote:
Voss wrote:
It isn't that. Its the curse of having an 'absolute' as a win condition. It isn't a problem with orks or eldar or tau. But necron and tyranid wins are 'rocks fall, everyone dies.' So.. they can't. It isn't strictly true for chaos, but the 'default' end state for a chaos win is like the end of WFB and everything gets pulled into the warp, so it kind of is.

It actually became a problem in the Cruddace Tyranid codex, because they came across as absolutely unstoppable and everyone should just give up. There were so many hive fleets with so much biomass, and defeated ones were regenerating and even more coming (and new ones entering the galaxy from 'above' and 'below' the galactic plane) that there was no reasonable way that they can ever be stopped. Game over, the end. That just isn't interesting, either for tyranid players (whose actual gameplay doesn't even vaguely match the numberless hordes and inevitable wins) or for anyone else.

I still think the Tyranid background should involve establishing nest-planets from which they launch feeding raids and try to establish new nests so they have sustainable food supplies, not 'devour everything.' It actually makes them part of the galactic stage rather than a faction that _erases_ the setting as they win. And constantly needs deus-ex-machina adjustments so they aren't winning too hard, but never being wiped out.


I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I've always felt like 'Tyranids can't win because when they win everyone dies and it's game over' is an argument that rather misses the point.

We read about Tyranid wins in the backstory- all the no-name planets that get eaten by Tyranids on their way to wherever they'll lose to Space Marines. But those battles are never 'on-screen' per se, and GW, for whatever reason, isn't willing to write darker stories where the Space Marines show up and try their hardest and still lose.

So when nearly every single story involving Tyranids boils down to 'oh no, the Tyranids have eaten thirteen planets you've never heard of before and now they're approaching Ultramar, will Captain Beefcake and his sidekicks Slab Bulkhead and Buff Hardmeat be able to stop them? (don't worry the answer is yes)' it gets incredibly stale.

My favorite Tyranid-related novel is Desert Raiders, because when the protagonists are Imperial Guard fighting over a backwater planet with no setting-wide importance, you have no idea how it's actually going to end. That's a refreshing change of pace. Don't get my avatar wrong, I was rooting for the Guard- it's fun to have a book where there are real stakes for the protagonists. You don't usually get that from Marine novels or Marine-centric tabletop plotlines.

We could very well have a campaign storyline where the Blood Angels deploy to support Planet Whatever and... lose, despite their best efforts. A company of Marines can be conjured out of thin air and Planet Whatever doesn't have to be a big important named planet, so there's no actual lasting consequences. GW just seems really averse to letting the bad guys beat the heroic Space Marines, so it doesn't happen.


Last time this was done that I am aware of was Forgeworld's "Anphelion Campaign" book, which ended with a loss for the Guard/Marines.

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Krieg! What a hole...

Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.

Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.

There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...

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 Bobthehero wrote:
Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.

Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.

There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...


Vraks was the Guard kicking ass though?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/05 21:34:26


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The Imperium in general has a symptom where they don't win unless Marines show up. Outside of their respective codex, how often do Imperium factions actually win without marines? It just feeds into the strange dynamic of marines being both extremely elite and low in number but also everywhere with plenty of numbers. Particularly the founding chapters. I know there will always be some dissonance between fluff and gameplay and can accept that. But the sheer gulf between the lore concept of marines and the lore actions of marines is distracting and undermines the whole idea of forging the narrative.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/05 22:10:02


 
   
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Krieg! What a hole...

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.

Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.

There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...


Vraks was the Guard kicking ass though?


It's a very pyrrhic victory. Cool book though.

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 Bobthehero wrote:
Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.

Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.


I've thought for a while that the Primarchs are kind of a problem in spurring this. They're essentially grimdark professional wrestling characters with the same exaggerated dramatics and adversarial relationships - Hell, I think there's a few straight-up wrestling power drops and over-the-knee backbreakers between them in the Heresy. Now thanks to 30k, several of them returning, and (much as the series amuses) the heavily memeable Text-to-Speech-Device, every third conversation about 40k revolves around them, their larger-than-life personalities, or their successor chapters as related to them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...


Some are like that, but despite maining Chaos these days I definitely think that the oversaturation is pure Space Marines.

The Guard are actually kind of a noteworthy case - I think if the game had oversaturated any other faction to the degree it oversaturated Space Marines, then it could become as or near as tiresome, but not the Guard. The Guard could be the protagonist faction with the most support, several different regiments and a ton of tanks and regular updates, and have it work. They're "guys with guns and big tanks," which makes them extremely thematically flexible; They die in droves, have droves to die in, don't always or even usually win, and no other faction so well carries the theme of heroic, futile struggle and being beset on all sides by powerful, terrifying foes. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread (probably), when a Guardsman of any stripe holds off a Chaos Lord or Warboss for long enough to hold the objective, that's genuinely heroic both on and off the tabletop, much moreso than when a Primaris Space Marine does the same.

You want a grimdark universe where life is the most expendable currency, you don't make the most commonly displayed protagonists expensive and valuable superhumans several times as good as their opposition and with so much gear that their weapon names become blurs of middle-school awesome. Even a Space Marine power fantasy would be improved by them being significantly rarer.

CSM sometimes does or does not get lumped into SM oversaturation, but I'll be clear that I'd be fine with CSM being a little less represented in favor of Daemons or the Heretic Guard that they squatted despite supposedly being everywhere lorewise.
   
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 CEO Kasen wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.

Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.


I've thought for a while that the Primarchs are kind of a problem in spurring this. They're essentially grimdark professional wrestling characters with the same exaggerated dramatics and adversarial relationships - Hell, I think there's a few straight-up wrestling power drops and over-the-knee backbreakers between them in the Heresy. Now thanks to 30k, several of them returning, and (much as the series amuses) the heavily memeable Text-to-Speech-Device, every third conversation about 40k revolves around them, their larger-than-life personalities, or their successor chapters as related to them.

^100%. They should have stayed dead, vague, unexplained and off 30-40K tables.

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 Bobthehero wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Bobthehero wrote:
Can't have a FW story without the Guard getting kicked in the face... but that's another topic.

Personally, the way SM make me lose interest in 40k is not only via the model releases, but also how they're inevitably the center of conversation in all sorts of groups/fandoms/forums etc. How they'll always be the ones compared to other universes (especially against their baseline human troopers, just so it favors the Marines, of course). How most of the art and discussions revolves around them, it gets stale, fast, and only gotten worse with 30K. How often have I seen that damned ''Astartes'' video, for example.

There's also the argument where people will claim that too many SM releases are too many Imperium releases, and want anything but Imperium, which is a shame because the Imperium forces I care about don't really get releases...


Vraks was the Guard kicking ass though?


It's a very pyrrhic victory. Cool book though.


I mean it was a tactical victory with the added fact that it was a strategic defeat overall.
Still, digging out the vraksians was an tall order. I also fully admit that as a R&H fan

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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