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I'm actually a bit surprised I don't see folks using traitor guard more from the web dataslate.

decent stats and gear for the points/PL, and the enforcer can stick with one of the units to keep them from getting squashed from morale.

link for those who haven't looked at it:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/DjcDsrpTgqE3rpHb.pdf


notable things: they have the proper current keywords, including CULTISTS, and can take a wargear assortment easily matched by plastic kriegers (which are easy to de-aquila)

currently running two squads with flamer, plasma and a sniper per unit. (flamer because I usually run word bearers for casual, cultists with LTGB is fun)

It's pretty much entirely down to cost. The whole point of cultists is that they're cheap and you don't expect them to do anything other than hold an objective or two, raise banners and screen out deep strike. Ideally, they do all that without exposing themselves to enemy fire.

If you have 10 points to spare there are probably worse ways to use it than upgrading a Cultist Mob to Traitor Guard but the overall impact is still going to be quite low.

Slipspace wrote:
It's pretty much entirely down to cost. The whole point of cultists is that they're cheap and you don't expect them to do anything other than hold an objective or two, raise banners and screen out deep strike. Ideally, they do all that without exposing themselves to enemy fire.

If you have 10 points to spare there are probably worse ways to use it than upgrading a Cultist Mob to Traitor Guard but the overall impact is still going to be quite low.

I originally had the same sort of thinking, then I actually had the sniper rifles and plasma achieving results, and the flamer serving as a deterrent on objectives. cultists mobs with flamers are only 5pt difference, and cultists mobs aren't effectively morale immune either.

If you include the cost of a Traitor Enforcer, then 30 Traitor Guardsmen are 225 pts, or 75 per squad.

The Traitor Enforcer themselves feels like a wasted slot and an Assassination liablity.

I'm somewhat ok with the idea of spending a spare 10 pts upgrading 10 Cultists to 10 Traitor Guardsmen (and doing it 3 times) but so far in list building I've found other pressing ways to spend the points (such as adding one/two more Marks).

I suppose the question could also be 30 Traitor Guardsmen vs. 30 Cultists + 1 Spawn? 30 TG + 1 TE vs. 30 Cultists + 3 Spawn?

I've been looking at Black Legion a lot recently and I'm wondering how people are playing these strategems in tournaments:

BRINGERS OF DESPAIR 2CP
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Fight phase. Select one BLACK LEGION CHAOS TERMINATOR SQUAD unit within 3" of one or more enemy units.
That unit is eligible to fight and fights first this phase.
Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit.

So, use case #1 - 10 Terminators standing 2.5" away from an enemy unit, not in engagement range of anyone, you spend 2 CP and then because you are eligible to fight, you can pile in 3", smash in the face of the unit, consolidate.
Use case #2 - 10 Terminators in engagement range of the enemy (either got charged or ongoing combat), you spend 2 CP, the enemy gets to pick a first charging unit but afterwards you fight as if an interrupt (no stacking) but get +1A and then maybe a second unit could interrupt as well a bit later.
Doesn't seem too controversial a take on this strategem, I just feel like I'll end up arguing about it at least once per tournament.

CONFLUENCE OF TRAITORS 1CP
Use this Stratagem in your Command phase. Select one BLACK LEGION HERETIC ASTARTES unit from your army, then select one Legion Trait. Until the start of your next Command phase, models in that unit have that Legion Trait. You can only use this Stratagem once.

I have a bit more of a controversial take for this one. But I assume I get to keep the BLACK LEGION trait as well as have the CREATIONS OF BILE trait, as it doesn't say replace the legiong trait, I just have it? The value of this strategem drops a decent amount if you lose the BLACK LEGION trait as it prevents spending the CP to get more damage output on top of what you already have.

EightFoldPath wrote:
If you include the cost of a Traitor Enforcer, then 30 Traitor Guardsmen are 225 pts, or 75 per squad.

The Traitor Enforcer themselves feels like a wasted slot and an Assassination liablity.

I'm somewhat ok with the idea of spending a spare 10 pts upgrading 10 Cultists to 10 Traitor Guardsmen (and doing it 3 times) but so far in list building I've found other pressing ways to spend the points (such as adding one/two more Marks).

I suppose the question could also be 30 Traitor Guardsmen vs. 30 Cultists + 1 Spawn? 30 TG + 1 TE vs. 30 Cultists + 3 Spawn?

I've been looking at Black Legion a lot recently and I'm wondering how people are playing these strategems in tournaments:

BRINGERS OF DESPAIR 2CP
Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponent’s Fight phase. Select one BLACK LEGION CHAOS TERMINATOR SQUAD unit within 3" of one or more enemy units.
That unit is eligible to fight and fights first this phase.
Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit.

So, use case #1 - 10 Terminators standing 2.5" away from an enemy unit, not in engagement range of anyone, you spend 2 CP and then because you are eligible to fight, you can pile in 3", smash in the face of the unit, consolidate.
Use case #2 - 10 Terminators in engagement range of the enemy (either got charged or ongoing combat), you spend 2 CP, the enemy gets to pick a first charging unit but afterwards you fight as if an interrupt (no stacking) but get +1A and then maybe a second unit could interrupt as well a bit later.
Doesn't seem too controversial a take on this strategem, I just feel like I'll end up arguing about it at least once per tournament.

CONFLUENCE OF TRAITORS 1CP
Use this Stratagem in your Command phase. Select one BLACK LEGION HERETIC ASTARTES unit from your army, then select one Legion Trait. Until the start of your next Command phase, models in that unit have that Legion Trait. You can only use this Stratagem once.

I have a bit more of a controversial take for this one. But I assume I get to keep the BLACK LEGION trait as well as have the CREATIONS OF BILE trait, as it doesn't say replace the legiong trait, I just have it? The value of this strategem drops a decent amount if you lose the BLACK LEGION trait as it prevents spending the CP to get more damage output on top of what you already have.

By my reading, you keep the BL Trait.

However, regardless of whether or not you have the BL Trait, you still have the BL Keyword, which should be all you need to use Strats.

Anyone in the mathhammer side of things know if Illusinary Suplication or Benediction of Darkness mathmatically better for buffing units?

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Anyone in the mathhammer side of things know if Illusinary Suplication or Benediction of Darkness mathmatically better for buffing units?

Depends what's targeting you, basically. And what unit you're protecting.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Anyone in the mathhammer side of things know if Illusinary Suplication or Benediction of Darkness mathmatically better for buffing units?

Depends what's targeting you, basically. And what unit you're protecting.

Abby and a squad of Termies

Not mathhammer.

Illusory Supplication is the better choice in most circumstances.

Benediction of Darkness grants Light Cover.

Pros:
1) Staying at a 2+ save against AP2 is very good.
2) Aura so can hit multiple units.

Cons:
1) You can get Light Cover from another source.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that ignore Light Cover.
3) If you have an invulnerable save, gaining Light Cover might not matter.
4) If you have a 2+ save and they have 0/1 AP, gaining Light Cover will not matter.
5) Light Cover does nothing for you in combat.
6) Aura so can't "follow" a charging unit.

Illusory Supplication grants can only be hit on a 4+ and no hit re-rolls.

Pros:
1) There are a vast range of abilities that grant re-roll 1s to hit, they get turned off.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that grant re-roll all hits, they get turned off.
3) There are a wide range of units that have a WS/BS of 2+, they get the equivalent of -2 to hit.
4) There are a vast range of units that have a WS/BS of 3+, they get the equivalent of -1 to hit.
5) Both bits work in shooting and combat.
6) It is a targetted buff so it can "follow" the unit.

Cons:
1) Some factions only hit on 4s.
2) Some different factions don't really do much re-rolling to hit.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Not mathhammer.

Illusory Supplication is the better choice in most circumstances.

Benediction of Darkness grants Light Cover.

Pros:
1) Staying at a 2+ save against AP2 is very good.
2) Aura so can hit multiple units.

Cons:
1) You can get Light Cover from another source.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that ignore Light Cover.
3) If you have an invulnerable save, gaining Light Cover might not matter.
4) If you have a 2+ save and they have 0/1 AP, gaining Light Cover will not matter.
5) Light Cover does nothing for you in combat.
6) Aura so can't "follow" a charging unit.

Illusory Supplication grants can only be hit on a 4+ and no hit re-rolls.

Pros:
1) There are a vast range of abilities that grant re-roll 1s to hit, they get turned off.
2) There are a wide range of abilities that grant re-roll all hits, they get turned off.
3) There are a wide range of units that have a WS/BS of 2+, they get the equivalent of -2 to hit.
4) There are a vast range of units that have a WS/BS of 3+, they get the equivalent of -1 to hit.
5) Both bits work in shooting and combat.
6) It is a targetted buff so it can "follow" the unit.

Cons:
1) Some factions only hit on 4s.
2) Some different factions don't really do much re-rolling to hit.

Thanks for the advice, swapping around list now.

Is a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion in two Land Raiders with Khorne Berserkers still a thing?

BillyN831 wrote:
Is a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion in two Land Raiders with Khorne Berserkers still a thing?

It's never BEEN a thing LOL. Until the Berserkers get some new rules they're just Chosen but worse.

Hi Guys, given the current codex and tools, what would you suggest to face heavy shooting armies such Tau and the upcoming Guard?

AL with its minuses to long range and the capacity to redeploy and move pregame seems the way to go, do you agree? (also auto explosions to chip away those castles)

Havocs and Obliterators are sure lackluster compared to Terminators and Possessed, but I feel we need some heavy shooting to take out screened vehicles and vulnerable units, what's your experience?

More in general, the problem is ofc not the Terminator brick, but the rest of the elites such as Possessed and Havocs that get cancelled before applying any real damage

I'm still upset over the fact that if we take two relics on a model that one cannot be a daemon weapon. It seem like such a pointless and unfun rule.

BillyN831 wrote:
Is a Dark Apostle and Exalted Champion in two Land Raiders with Khorne Berserkers still a thing?

This sounds 8th edition-ey, maybe even earlier edition. Dark Apostles in 9th don't really like starting in transports unless you are willing to spend 2 CP to do a prayer.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Hi Guys, given the current codex and tools, what would you suggest to face heavy shooting armies such Tau and the upcoming Guard?

AL with its minuses to long range and the capacity to redeploy and move pregame seems the way to go, do you agree? (also auto explosions to chip away those castles)

Havocs and Obliterators are sure lackluster compared to Terminators and Possessed, but I feel we need some heavy shooting to take out screened vehicles and vulnerable units, what's your experience?

More in general, the problem is ofc not the Terminator brick, but the rest of the elites such as Possessed and Havocs that get cancelled before applying any real damage

CSM do look like they are going to struggle with Guard, especially when Flamers get nerfed and can no longer carry CSM/TS/Daemons on their firey backs. I think the other option to better shooting is instead better speed on your melee. AL have the pregame move strat that keeps calling to me. EC have Honour the Prince. All legions have the MoP stab/res jank that I think is going to become more common (as CSM become less common).

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I'm still upset over the fact that if we take two relics on a model that one cannot be a daemon weapon. It seem like such a pointless and unfun rule.

Sounds 100% like a current GW rule. Why make something simple when you have have 16 different caveats to remember.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Hi Guys, given the current codex and tools, what would you suggest to face heavy shooting armies such Tau and the upcoming Guard?

AL with its minuses to long range and the capacity to redeploy and move pregame seems the way to go, do you agree? (also auto explosions to chip away those castles)

Havocs and Obliterators are sure lackluster compared to Terminators and Possessed, but I feel we need some heavy shooting to take out screened vehicles and vulnerable units, what's your experience?

More in general, the problem is ofc not the Terminator brick, but the rest of the elites such as Possessed and Havocs that get cancelled before applying any real damage

Havocs are generally terrible anyway, so not taking them is hardly a drawback. Possessed actually should do OK against a lot of Guard armies. The T5 helps against tank shooting and they are fast enough to use terrain to their advantage a lot of the time. Tagging the tanks is still a useful tactic, even with the new Turret Weapon rule. Sadly CSM shooting is still pretty bad, and the best solution is, as ever, Blastmasters, which isn't much help unless you're EC.

Failing that we just need to hope for a points drop on Oblits in January, because they have decent stats into Guard tanks, they just cost far too much.

Slipspace wrote:
Tagging the tanks is still a useful tactic, even with the new Turret Weapon rule. Sadly CSM shooting is still pretty bad, and the best solution is, as ever, Blastmasters, which isn't much help unless you're EC.

I've not seen/experienced this, but this theory I saw gave me pause when thinking about IG tank tagging. Say they have 6 LRBTs spread out, you tag all six tanks with six different units. The IG player can retreat 1~2 of the 6, lose all their shooting, but then shoot the 4~5 remaining turrets at the now 1~2 exposed unit(s) while shooting all the sponsons into the combats they are in.

The main issue with CSM is the amount of D2 and the IG tank's access to a -1D strat. I've forgotten the exact figures but I ran the numbers on 5 and 10 man Termies/Possessed/Chosen/Warp Talons into LRBTs and nothing felt efficient.

Well, there are always allied flamers (for now)

more seriously, allied war dogs might actually be an interesting take, same with raptors with a fist and twin melta.

Personally in the couple games so far against new guard, Rapier Laser Destroyers are proving to be a pretty decent take to do some good damage on the stuff I can't reach

if things get desperate there's always warpflamer rubrics.

For the relic Sightless Helm, if I give it to a character with a chainfist, do I still have minus one to hit when I fight?

You can choose to ignore the -1 to hit.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
For the relic Sightless Helm, if I give it to a character with a chainfist, do I still have minus one to hit when I fight?

Well yeah, why wouldn't you ignore it?

There are rare times when you most definitely don't want to kill the target. Not common but there are those.

Real game example I ran into. I was fighting vs near dead chaos knight. Another with double guns including relic that can provide tons of mortal wounds. I had skarbrand in fight making it extremely unlikely he can fall back. Thus I wanted to keep the thing alive rather than let that other knight shoot me at will. Thus I opted for weapon profile that was LEAST likely to kill...And did just that with 1 failed save away from destruction. Shooty knight was reduced to try to stomp skarbrand alive.

So unusual but sometimes you want to keep negatives

Can't Knights just fall back and shoot anyway though?

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Can't Knights just fall back and shoot anyway though?

Skarbrand can prevent fallbacks.

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Well, there are always allied flamers (for now)

more seriously...

I'm toying with this idea. I already run the MoP, since he is a warp locus I've though about finagling some Flamers into a little patrol detachment. MoP gets dropped up-field with his cadre of Chosen, then immediately the Flamers get dropped in behind and begin cooking anything alive.... I think phase chronology allows this, just something that I thought of in the car on my war to work I'm not super unfamiliar with the Chaos Daemon codex though, don't know if they have access to their warp strike stuff when not in a fully fledged Daemon army.

edit: reading through the daemon rules, the MoP would have to be Tzeentch psyker (I believe...per the Manifestation rules) to allows the flamers to drop in. The MoP would also need to be *on the field* at the start of the round to allow this turn 1 shenanigan to occur...thus it's placement inside the drop pod is prohibitive to the ability.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Can't Knights just fall back and shoot anyway though?

Not easily if skarbrand is next to you. Roll 3d6, get your ld or less. With -1 to ld.

Good luck.

(also applies to your guys nearby and nearby enemies gets extra attack)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangarupe wrote:

 WindstormSCR wrote:
Well, there are always allied flamers (for now)

more seriously...

I'm toying with this idea. I already run the MoP, since he is a warp locus I've though about finagling some Flamers into a little patrol detachment. MoP gets dropped up-field with his cadre of Chosen, then immediately the Flamers get dropped in behind and begin cooking anything alive.... I think phase chronology allows this, just something that I thought of in the car on my war to work I'm not super unfamiliar with the Chaos Daemon codex though, don't know if they have access to their warp strike stuff when not in a fully fledged Daemon army.

edit: reading through the daemon rules, the MoP would have to be Tzeentch psyker (I believe...per the Manifestation rules) to allows the flamers to drop in. The MoP would also need to be *on the field* at the start of the round to allow this turn 1 shenanigan to occur...thus it's placement inside the drop pod is prohibitive to the ability.

A) flamers getting nerfbat on dataslate.
B) no manifestation turn 1
C) yes master needs to be tzeentch and start turn on board.
D) manifestation outside daemon army only near warp locus.

Yeah I see they’re losing their auto hit, I welcome it. They’re crazy in game. Well good… now I don’t have to buy and paint any lolz

They're flamers, they SHOULD autohit. The problem is what they're autohitting WITH.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They're flamers, they SHOULD autohit. The problem is what they're autohitting WITH.

So every weapon with word flames(not even flamer. Flames) should autohit,?


You do realize don't you there's other similar named weapons that don't autohit?


Though no evidence that rumour is even true.