Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So you have this neat idea about an army or character for a RPG, but then think nah that already exists. Only to find that no it doesn’t.

Example:
The Space Wolves refer to the Emperor as the Allfather. There must be Sisters of Battle who follow the Emperor as the Allfather. But looking into it there are not. They could be literal valkeries! Make them from Fenris and be support to the Space Wolves.

There are various Ork Oddboys that reach Warboss status, but so far I can’t find a Weirdboy that is at Warlord status. Zogwart might be the closest, but he was referred to as a Freeboota works for other Warlords.

Any lore that you have thought of that should exist?

Fenris is an Astarte Homeworld, which means they own it, so you won't have a Ministorum presence to create Sisters forces. Not to mention Fenris is a Death World with little population who are not raised into the faith of the Emperor, they are not even aware of the Imperium outside of their Space Wolf "overlords" that come and take the best of their fighting youth.

I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

Big Meks are kind of Warboss tier. Many have led their own warbands to go and do some killing.

As for sisters, I just wonder why they haven't gotten some of the flavour yet that Guardsmen and Space Marines got. The distinction and designs of Chapters and Guard regiments are some of the reasons for why people play these factions, yet sisters don't get that same treatment.

I want to see Tau society and inner workings fleshed out, (which is kind of weird for someone who only cares about Orks). I want to know more about the other castes and want to see them take more importance in the big picture. It is either Fire or Ethereal cast that get mentioned at all.

I second the Big Mek thing actually. The Raid on Castorel Novem featured a Big Mek kind of being the real power behind the scenes, despite a much larger warboss being the de facto leader.

If you're looking for a home base for your Valkyrie SoB, there is an Imperial ice world named Valhalla.

Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superiuor to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superior to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

No, I can see a Marine from a Chapter like the Salamanders joining the Tau to try and protect humans there from things like Orks. Not all Marines are big jerks some are really nice and most are in the middle.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superior to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

No, I can see a Marine from a Chapter like the Salamanders joining the Tau to try and protect humans there from things like Orks. Not all Marines are big jerks some are really nice and most are in the middle.

why would a "nice guy chapter" sell out man kind to xenos over lords?

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superior to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

No, I can see a Marine from a Chapter like the Salamanders joining the Tau to try and protect humans there from things like Orks. Not all Marines are big jerks some are really nice and most are in the middle.

why would a "nice guy chapter" sell out man kind to xenos over lords?

IIRC Tau are pretty fair to people in their Empire. They care about their Drones for goodness sake. The Imperium won't care at all beyond them being a gun holder unless they become pretty important. If you're in a Chapter that's about protecting people then there is potential for a deal. For example: The Space Marines protect human colonies in the Tau area in exchange they don't fight the Tau over their planet.

On that note, a space marine could easily join the tau if he were in a situation where the imperium abandons him, something not without precedent in the lore.

A captain could be sent out with his men to attack the tau, but in typical fashion be left woefully undersupplied and unsupported. A few too many markerlights could be the difference between a loyal astartes and one sick to death of being sent off to fight horrible gak by a largely careless bureaucracy. Then in typical fish head peacenik fashion the tau flounce over in their spiffy robots and invite the marines to come on over to the greater good. After a few centuries of abuse and constant warfare, it might be nice to kick off the pauldrons and relax for a bit, heck maybe even live something of a normal life for a bit before going back out and stomping your old army buddies.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superior to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

No, I can see a Marine from a Chapter like the Salamanders joining the Tau to try and protect humans there from things like Orks. Not all Marines are big jerks some are really nice and most are in the middle.

why would a "nice guy chapter" sell out man kind to xenos over lords?

IIRC Tau are pretty fair to people in their Empire. They care about their Drones for goodness sake. The Imperium won't care at all beyond them being a gun holder unless they become pretty important. If you're in a Chapter that's about protecting people then there is potential for a deal. For example: The Space Marines protect human colonies in the Tau area in exchange they don't fight the Tau over their planet.

they may care but humans are still subserviant to xenos. this betrays everything about being a space marine. It's one thing to say "HEY WE SHOULD BE IN CHARGE" it's another thing to sell out to a third party

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superior to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

No, I can see a Marine from a Chapter like the Salamanders joining the Tau to try and protect humans there from things like Orks. Not all Marines are big jerks some are really nice and most are in the middle.

why would a "nice guy chapter" sell out man kind to xenos over lords?

IIRC Tau are pretty fair to people in their Empire. They care about their Drones for goodness sake. The Imperium won't care at all beyond them being a gun holder unless they become pretty important. If you're in a Chapter that's about protecting people then there is potential for a deal. For example: The Space Marines protect human colonies in the Tau area in exchange they don't fight the Tau over their planet.

they may care but humans are still subserviant to xenos. this betrays everything about being a space marine. It's one thing to say "HEY WE SHOULD BE IN CHARGE" it's another thing to sell out to a third party

They aren't really caring about being in charge. It's more going "Hey, my job is protecting humans. The humans over there seem way happier and this government is terrible.".

It seemed like a nice idea for Renegade Marines which I think should have more presence in the lore. Whether they're pirates or protecting humans outside the Imperium.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Given how often Space Marines fall to Chaos, I'd like to see a Space Marine chapter that's fallen to the Greater Good.

Then again, I'd also like to see Tau get Tarellian and Demiurg troops.

falling to chaos is one thing, it feeds on the pride and arrogance of a space marine. the greater good? less so.
Space Marines are superior to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

No, I can see a Marine from a Chapter like the Salamanders joining the Tau to try and protect humans there from things like Orks. Not all Marines are big jerks some are really nice and most are in the middle.

why would a "nice guy chapter" sell out man kind to xenos over lords?

IIRC Tau are pretty fair to people in their Empire. They care about their Drones for goodness sake. The Imperium won't care at all beyond them being a gun holder unless they become pretty important. If you're in a Chapter that's about protecting people then there is potential for a deal. For example: The Space Marines protect human colonies in the Tau area in exchange they don't fight the Tau over their planet.

they may care but humans are still subserviant to xenos. this betrays everything about being a space marine. It's one thing to say "HEY WE SHOULD BE IN CHARGE" it's another thing to sell out to a third party

They aren't really caring about being in charge. It's more going "Hey, my job is protecting humans. The humans over there seem way happier and this government is terrible.".

It seemed like a nice idea for Renegade Marines which I think should have more presence in the lore. Whether they're pirates or protecting humans outside the Imperium.

It seems like you forgot that Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots, even more so than ordinary Imperial citizens. They would never think that way. They would see Humans being slaves of a sinister xenos race, remember all the stories of Humans being mistreated by their xenos overlords. Then they would set about to liberate the poor Humans (or kill them if liberation is not possible. Death is preferable to living as a xenos' slave).

Space Marines can fall to Chaos because Chaos corrupts. Exposure to the Greater Good does not have the same mind-altering results as exposure to the Warp, so therefore Space Marines simply can not fall to the Greater Good.
A Space Marine Chapter that is disillusioned with the Imperium's treatment of people is much more likely to either fall to Chaos (especially Tzeentch) or to go renegade. They would not suddenly convert to a strange and not much less oppressive alien ideology (if anything the Greater Good's caste system offers even less freedom than the Imperium's theocratic feudalism), especially not since that would involve enslaving themselves to an alien species (something which according to their worldview is the single most abhorrent thing possible). That would be a ridiculous face-heel turn comparable to Hitler suddenly converting to Judaism and asking Stalin to annex Germany and become its new leader. It goes against all established 40k lore and characterisation of the Space Marines.

What I would like to see is a lot more details on civilian life in the Imperium, an Eldar Craftworld, Commorragh or the Tau Empire. Sure, we get some glances every now and then, but some novels focused almost entirely on civilian life in 40k without any kind of warfare would be a nice change of pace and very informational.
Also, on the theme of renegade Space Marines, we already have those, but some more could not hurt. It always provides highly interesting fluff.

I’d like to see Necron Cults. Or at the very least their influence affecting human populations.

The stereotypical Necron invasion is that humans live on their planet, awaken Necrons, then Necrons purge the planet of all life. A tale as old as time.

A lot of humans fall prey to Xenos and Chaos alike. Hell it could be argued that the Emperor only exists to keep humans serving humanity otherwise humans would start serving other masters.

It’s almost as if humans base state in the 40k universe is to serve greater powers. Genestealer Cults for nids, Gue'vesa for tau, cultists for Chaos, and Skitarii for Adeptus Mechanicus.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
I’d like to see Necron Cults. Or at the very least their influence affecting human populations.

The stereotypical Necron invasion is that humans live on their planet, awaken Necrons, then Necrons purge the planet of all life. A tale as old as time.

A lot of humans fall prey to Xenos and Chaos alike. Hell it could be argued that the Emperor only exists to keep humans serving humanity otherwise humans would start serving other masters.

It’s almost as if humans base state in the 40k universe is to serve greater powers. Genestealer Cults for nids, Gue'vesa for tau, cultists for Chaos, and Skitarii for Adeptus Mechanicus.

What's funny is that it was implied there were Admech necron cultists on mars in 3rd ed, but nope, GW retconned all that fun stuff with 5th ed.

 Iron_Captain wrote:



A Space Marine Chapter that is disillusioned with the Imperium's treatment of people is much more likely to either fall to Chaos (especially Tzeentch) or to go renegade. They would not suddenly convert to a strange and not much less oppressive alien ideology (if anything the Greater Good's caste system offers even less freedom than the Imperium's theocratic feudalism), especially not since that would involve enslaving themselves to an alien species (something which according to their worldview is the single most abhorrent thing possible). That would be a ridiculous face-heel turn comparable to Hitler suddenly converting to Judaism and asking Stalin to annex Germany and become its new leader. It goes against all established 40k lore and characterisation of the Space Marines.

The Caste system only applies to Tau. From everything I've read, the Kroot, Demiurg, and Nicassur do things their own way. Gue'vesa are no different.

Eldar Wraithlords that were Skyrunners in life, so they ride modified Vyper jetbikes in death.
I've already got them modeled:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

It seems like you forgot that Space Marines are heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots, even more so than ordinary Imperial citizens. They would never think that way. They would see Humans being slaves of a sinister xenos race, remember all the stories of Humans being mistreated by their xenos overlords. Then they would set about to liberate the poor Humans (or kill them if liberation is not possible. Death is preferable to living as a xenos' slave).

Space Marines can fall to Chaos because Chaos corrupts. Exposure to the Greater Good does not have the same mind-altering results as exposure to the Warp, so therefore Space Marines simply can not fall to the Greater Good.
A Space Marine Chapter that is disillusioned with the Imperium's treatment of people is much more likely to either fall to Chaos (especially Tzeentch) or to go renegade. They would not suddenly convert to a strange and not much less oppressive alien ideology (if anything the Greater Good's caste system offers even less freedom than the Imperium's theocratic feudalism), especially not since that would involve enslaving themselves to an alien species (something which according to their worldview is the single most abhorrent thing possible). That would be a ridiculous face-heel turn comparable to Hitler suddenly converting to Judaism and asking Stalin to annex Germany and become its new leader. It goes against all established 40k lore and characterisation of the Space Marines.

Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots. They're an incredibly varied bunch, many of whom have almost no oversight for vast swathes of time, plenty for them to be converted to the cause. We've seen Space Marines learn to respect the Tau, a group going further is hardly implausible. Space Marines have turned against the Imperium and the Emperor without being corrupted by Chaos, such as with the Badab war, Soul Drinkers, or hell, the Alpha Legion, who were convinced to go against the Imperium by Xenos. If one can go against that, it seems far more likely they could support Humans living under Xenos rule, or at the very least, being apathetic.

It seems strange how readily you allow Space Marines to be capable of betraying the Emperor and the Imperium, breaking one of the most essential aspects of their worldview, but find the idea of them being cool with Xenos far more unlikely, even though we've seen Space Marines temporarily ally themselves with Xenos.

Plus, humans don't live in the Tau caste system, because humans don't have natural caste subspecies. You don't see Fire Caste Kroot or Tarellians for the same reason.

I don't think you really understand Chaos and Space Marines
First of all, the marines don't fall to chaos «often». It happened sometimes in ten thousands years, especially during the Heresy before Chaos was understood and before they were protecting themselves against chaos effectively
Then, Chaos is like radiations, mere exposure can kill you, or if you are strong enough, will corrupt you, plain and simple .
Corrupt your mind, soul and body. It can even corrupt places, weapons, etc. that are not alive.
Marines are more resistant against it than simple mortals, but still it is possible.
Xeno ideology is not actively corrupting people, they are just idea. The most basic lore of the Space Marines is they are elites monk soldiers psycho endoctrinated and spending years to train to fight xenos. Even if the ones that care for human people are not «nice» guys dreaming of peace and to rest. They aren't even human anymore, nor in nody neither in mind.
And tau are't nice and kind either, in any other setting they would be seen as highly aggressive invaders.

BrianDavion wrote:
why would a "nice guy chapter" sell out man kind to xenos over lords?

Because they see the sadistic torture machine that the Imperium has become, the brutal wars of attrition and mindless slaughter fought in its defense, the religious lunacy that declares competence and progress to be sin and glorifies stupidity and failure, and the fact that the extinction of humanity is inevitable unless it is brought under competent leadership. Humanity under the Tau does not rule the galaxy, but it survives. Humanity under the Imperium is a dying race, and the only question is how much humanity will suffer before the final, merciful end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 godardc wrote:
Then, Chaos is like radiations, mere exposure can kill you, or if you are strong enough, will corrupt you, plain and simple.

TBH this is a really terrible version of Chaos, and I really wish GW would stop using it. Falling to Chaos is meant to be a willing act. It can tempt you with promises of power, offer you everything you ever wanted if only you sign away your soul, but it can not simply declare "you are now Chaos" and make you start growing weird tentacles and slaughtering innocents. As a willing act falling to or resisting Chaos is interesting. Do you have the willpower to resist, no matter how tempting the offer is? How much would you pay for an immediate victory? Would you willingly sacrifice yourself to the dark powers to save the one person you love most? Or would you watch them die, knowing that Chaos would eagerly grant you the power to save them if only you ask. As mere "Chaos radiation" it's boring and . There's no drama, no character development, only "roll to see how much Chaos damage you take".

With the proper understanding of Chaos in mind xenos corruption is absolutely also a thing. The xenos can offer many things, if only you are willing to accept them, just like the dark gods can. They can lure you in, tempt you with greater and greater gifts, until you are brought fully under their control. First it's using that cache of Tau pulse rifles you found, because you're out of bolter ammunition and the Tyranids are a much bigger threat to worry about. Then you're having doubts about the virtues of the Imperium, if the crude firearms you have been given are so clearly inadequate, and the lunatic cults that run the Imperium refuse to allow you to get superior weapons like those pulse rifles, why should such idiocy stand in the path of victory? Next thing you know you're swearing loyalty to the Greater Good and standing in defense of your fellow humans alongside the might of the Tau Empire.

BrianDavion wrote:
Space Marines are superiuor to humans in almost every way, chaos preys on their resentment for having to serve lowly humans when they should due toi their suoperiority be in charge. the greater good simply has no real purchase on space marines that way

Every space marine was once a lowly human. They would go extinct if they didn't keep (enough) humans alive that they can replace losses, so their relationship isn't usually as simple as contempt for ordinary humans.

They might not join the Greater Good, but I could see a desperate Chapter accept the same sort of deal they have with the IoM - a recruiting world with it's population and other possible resources in exchange for military service. So they help xenos, yes, but they also keep protecting the humans they need.

 darkcloak wrote:
I've always though the Space Wolves provided a solid template for the introduction of a female space marine. A very brutal, very tribal society like that of Fenris undoubtedly produces women warriors. It's the only way to survive such an environment. And I'm not here to advocate anything other than the telling of a viable and probably epic story which if told correctly could illuminate an element of philosophical social commentary in the lore that is otherwise sadly missing from the black library fiction. I mean, we're talking post humanism and survival in a dystopian future, the books deserve to be more than just bolter porn.

Anyways, my idea was this. A fenrisian woman loses her lover when after a great battle he is whisked away by the Space Wolves to become a space marine. Unaware of his true fate and blaming her cruel gods for their separation she embarks on an impossible journey to climb to the top of the big mountain ( I forget the name of the SWs fortress mountain ) to challenge the gods to either give her back her husband or face her steel in combat. Obviously climbing the mountain is a pretty big deal since it's so bloody huge and probably covered with nasty snow monsters and the like. In the end she climbs the mountain, kills a bunch of baddies and overall impresses the onlooking Space Wolves so much that they decide to make her a novitiate. The story ends with the main character realizing that even if her lover survived the marine recruitment process, neither of them could be the same people they were before and now both of their duty lies in service to the Emperor. The space wolves rename her Lycaeus in honour of her trials, which means 'of the she-wolf'.

This story is one of the only ways I can see to bring a woman into a space marine chapter and have it be believable and enjoyable for readers of both sexes. Admittedly as a man I feel I would be unable to really write this story since such storytelling would inevitably involve a deeper understanding of the female mind and would have to resonate with the female reader as a believable character. I often find that either sex is unable to truly reproduce the mindset of the other in literature. Men write hollow women and women write overly sensitive men, it's one of the pitfalls of professional writing.

Well, that's my take on what should be included in the lore, or at least in the fiction. And again, not arguing for anything other than what I think would be a great story in an otherwise vapid collection of books. Certainly not a fem40ker so don't even bother to reply if that is in your head. I just see the setting as the perfect vehicle for social discussion and wish there was more of a philosophical bent to some of the Black Library books. I mean, we're talking about some pretty heady stuff in 40k, but sadly our fiction is limited to shooting things and man children having hissy fits.

Side note:. Not bashing BL fans, there are some good books and authors in the collection. Flight of the Eisenstein is probably one of my favourite books! It just seems that the focus of BLs storytelling is simply to provide action and excitement and not to encourage deeper philosophical conversation.

I would read that novel, it sounds good. Pitch it to BL - they are looking for good stories at the moment

Having her as a non Marine but important part of the chapter could be very interesting - indeed some of the best BL books for me have the Marines seen from a human characters perspective. There is also a canon female inquisitor from Fenris (BL novel - the Emperor's Gift).

Writing the opposite sex is not easy but it can be done - same with aliens although its odd people seem to think writing or roleplaying the latter is easier. I get a female friend to read mine and see what she thinks.

BL is much better than GW tabletop at having a more appropriate level of women in the universe. The tabletop is getting a bit better - eg Knights now have female pilots and Barons in the Codex's/campaigns where before they had strapped a "men only" tag on them for no reason. Also some good fan-fiction here with female characters.

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Wraithlords that were Skyrunners in life, so they ride modified Vyper jetbikes in death.
I've already got them modeled:

Spoiler:

That's a thoroughly absurd and ridiculous idea. But I absolutely adore it.

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:


Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots.

Yes they are. The process for making space marines includes...

Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

Space marines are all literally brainwashed. While yes, different chapters reinforce different traits and such to different extents, their zealot fanatical nature is a core aspect of all of them. It's why those that fall to chaos fall so hard. It's not just some guy getting pissed with their boss. Their whole known existence becomes shattered when their religion gets called into question.

 Peregrine wrote:

TBH this is a really terrible version of Chaos, and I really wish GW would stop using it. Falling to Chaos is meant to be a willing act.

If it's what GW uses; that kind of makes it canon. Not sure you're in the position to declare what falling to Chaos 'is meant to be' given that you're not actually a staff writer.

 Ketara wrote:
If it's what GW uses; that kind of makes it canon. Not sure you're in the position to declare what falling to Chaos 'is meant to be' given that you're not actually a staff writer.

I can't dictate what GW considers canon, but I can point out where official material is terrible and should be ignored. If GW publishes trash it goes right into the trash can with its shiny "canon" sticker still attached.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:


Space Marines aren't always heavily indoctrinated fanatically religious zealots.

Yes they are. The process for making space marines includes...

Space Marines, of course, vary in intelligence as do other men, and their individual mental abilities vary to some degree, as their implants do not reshape their core neural architecture, though the hypnotherapy does act to "smooth out" many personality quirks. This indoctrination also includes psychological conditioning which is intended to reinforce a Space Marine's respect for authority and his willingness to follow orders regardless of his own desires, as well as to harden his mind to the corruptive temptations offered by Chaos. It is no exaggeration to say that many Astartes truly no longer know fear. At the end of this process, if all goes well, an adolescent human male will have been transformed into a superhuman Astartes.Yet, in many ways he will no longer truly be human, having sacrificed his own humanity so that he might protect that of others.

Space marines are all literally brainwashed. While yes, different chapters reinforce different traits and such to different extents, their zealot fanatical nature is a core aspect of all of them. It's why those that fall to chaos fall so hard. It's not just some guy getting pissed with their boss. Their whole known existence becomes shattered when their religion gets called into question.

But they aren't always this. Again, in the Badab War, they go against the Emperor and Imperium, without falling to Chaos, but just through deciding that they want more power. So they can go again the religious zealotry and decide just to go against it. Then, you have the Space Marines who don't act like religious zealots, and are willing to do things like make temporary alliances with Xenos or stuff like that.

Has this become a heated conversation about whether space marines can join the Tau or not? Anyway, my two cents thinks that they can't. Why? Like a lot of people said, sm are heavily indoctrinated and view Xenos as a cancer to be stamped out. It's not an option for them, because they don't see anything except a menace there. They'd opt for death.