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Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Considering the state of the Imperium now, would you argue that Chaos had actually won the HH, albeit at great cost?

Consider this. Horus was merely a pawn in the game and the true power behind his rebellion was the support of the hitherto unknown forces of Chaos. He nevertheless managed to completely divide the Legions, sack the empire and kill the physical form of its leader, while the powers of Chaos lost... nothing. If anything the events of the heresy only served to increase the holdings of Chaos, giving them an army of marines and a few primarchs too boot. Not to mention all the world's that were destroyed or corrupted! If we look at the long term effects of the HH we can see even more evidence that Chaos really came out on top. From the events on Terra, Chaos gained a number of strong leaders and warriors who went on to plague the imperium endlessly and in Abbadon we have the man responsible for the Great Rift.

Could it be that the Imperium has actually been losing the Long War ever since it started? Now with the galaxy doing an emoji impression, just how likely is it that the Imperium can recover and could the root of its undoing be found in the Horus Heresy?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I'm pretty sure that Chaos got exactly what they wanted from the Heresy.
Most of their soldiers they turned from the enemy, the Imperium was forced into a state of constant decay and was pretty much stuck struggling against Chaos forever but unable to win.

There's no pyrrhic about it. Chaos won.

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Made in ie
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 darkcloak wrote:
Considering the state of the Imperium now, would you argue that Chaos had actually won the HH, albeit at great cost?

Consider this. Horus was merely a pawn in the game and the true power behind his rebellion was the support of the hitherto unknown forces of Chaos. He nevertheless managed to completely divide the Legions, sack the empire and kill the physical form of its leader, while the powers of Chaos lost... nothing. If anything the events of the heresy only served to increase the holdings of Chaos, giving them an army of marines and a few primarchs too boot. Not to mention all the world's that were destroyed or corrupted! If we look at the long term effects of the HH we can see even more evidence that Chaos really came out on top. From the events on Terra, Chaos gained a number of strong leaders and warriors who went on to plague the imperium endlessly and in Abbadon we have the man responsible for the Great Rift.

Could it be that the Imperium has actually been losing the Long War ever since it started? Now with the galaxy doing an emoji impression, just how likely is it that the Imperium can recover and could the root of its undoing be found in the Horus Heresy?


I mean, it really means what you mean by "Chaos". Abaddon and his forces clearly lost the war, given Abaddon himself was killed, their force was broken and forced to retreat. The Chaos Gods, however, got exactly what they wanted. Abaddon taking over would've led to humanity falling, the way it is with constant war, plagues, change and excess, is perfect for the Chaos Gods.
   
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I thought the whole background of 40k was that the Imperium is slowly crumbling, being nibbled to death by more enemies than they can deal with. That'd put them down as losing the Long War. Well at least until Bobby G showed up and reclaimed a bunch of stuff and gave the Imperium hope.

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The Gods lose if humanity loses. Each of them is a twisted side of balance; with nothing left to pervert they would simply fade away. In that sense, Chaos absolutely won, because they are sustained.

We kind of get a glimpse of this with the latest Tyranid attack on Baal. You get the impression that Chaos stopped the invasion. Perhaps a defeat there would have a ripple effect that would create an unrecoverable imbalance.

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 darkcloak wrote:
Considering the state of the Imperium now, would you argue that Chaos had actually won the HH, albeit at great cost?

Consider this. Horus was merely a pawn in the game and the true power behind his rebellion was the support of the hitherto unknown forces of Chaos. He nevertheless managed to completely divide the Legions, sack the empire and kill the physical form of its leader, while the powers of Chaos lost... nothing. If anything the events of the heresy only served to increase the holdings of Chaos, giving them an army of marines and a few primarchs too boot. Not to mention all the world's that were destroyed or corrupted! If we look at the long term effects of the HH we can see even more evidence that Chaos really came out on top. From the events on Terra, Chaos gained a number of strong leaders and warriors who went on to plague the imperium endlessly and in Abbadon we have the man responsible for the Great Rift.

Could it be that the Imperium has actually been losing the Long War ever since it started? Now with the galaxy doing an emoji impression, just how likely is it that the Imperium can recover and could the root of its undoing be found in the Horus Heresy?


Well legion divide was pyrhhic accomplished seeing that was plan from the get-go. It's quite possible Emperor got what he wanted from the whole thing as well. 40k fluff is funny in that it's ambigious. There's enough hints that you could argue Emperor is going "just as planned"(plan being archieving godhood powers by constant sacrifices to him until he's ready to ascend fully).
   
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Chaos gained an eternal (mortal) war, along with their own flavored Astartes and Primarchs. Plus the Emprah in a coma serves them well.
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Okay good! I'm glad to see the nauseating hope and perseverance put forward by the BrB isn't going to anyones heads!

They make it sound like the Imperium has a chance. Sure their metal bawkses are tough as hell now, but the Imperium is falling!!!! Insert maniacal squee of joyous eternal rage laughter here.

Roboute Guilliman may be alive and well, but I'm pretty sure, and this is me spitballing, he is just back to set up some big epic fight between him and Chaos that is pretty much the next stalling point. Guilliman is back and saves the Imperium, but he just gets embroiled in some win or lose everything conflict that keeps him from actually accomplishing anything but staying in one spot fighting, or mankind loses. Essentially this would bring us back to the five minutes to midnight thing which seems to be GWs way of advancing the plot, if only incrementally.



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Made in ca
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 darkcloak wrote:
Okay good! I'm glad to see the nauseating hope and perseverance put forward by the BrB isn't going to anyones heads!

They make it sound like the Imperium has a chance. Sure their metal bawkses are tough as hell now, but the Imperium is falling!!!! Insert maniacal squee of joyous eternal rage laughter here.

Roboute Guilliman may be alive and well, but I'm pretty sure, and this is me spitballing, he is just back to set up some big epic fight between him and Chaos that is pretty much the next stalling point. Guilliman is back and saves the Imperium, but he just gets embroiled in some win or lose everything conflict that keeps him from actually accomplishing anything but staying in one spot fighting, or mankind loses. Essentially this would bring us back to the five minutes to midnight thing which seems to be GWs way of advancing the plot, if only incrementally.


the entire crusade is basicly a giant win or lose fight that he's going to be embroiled in forever I suspect

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

I thought the Indomitus Crusade was over though? Or maybe it's one of those temporal distortion things they're leaning on now?

The fluff goes on about the Noctis Aeterna for a solid chunk of the BrB ( sorry just got it and reading it cover to cover ). Seems like every page mentions how bad the Great Rift messed with the aforementioned item. Then we get to the bit about Baal. I don't know BA lore that well, but a hive fleet shows up and stomps the crap out of everyone, then BAM! THE GREAT RIFT!!! Then it kinda sounds like Bobby and the gang show up immediately thereafter... Um? Didn't the Rift open after Abby smashed the pylon on Cadia? Then Cawls Angels go to Ultramar, wake up Bobby, then they go to... Terra? Then Baal? Must not have stopped to fight any extra traitor Legions on the way huh? And what about the storms of unimaginable ferocity from the last 100 pages? Sounds like your typical Imperial cover up to me.

Says the guy with a drawer full of shiny gold primary marines...


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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/10 07:57:22




Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in ca
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There is in fact some time dialation involved. whereas 70 years had passed for Gulliman before he got to Baal after the rift opened, for the blood angels it seemed a matter of days

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phillv85 wrote:
I thought the whole background of 40k was that the Imperium is slowly crumbling, being nibbled to death by more enemies than they can deal with. That'd put them down as losing the Long War. Well at least until Bobby G showed up and reclaimed a bunch of stuff and gave the Imperium hope.


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

I would indeed "hope" that the next steps in the lore will be determined by global narrative tournaments, where those that compete and win (and lose) determine the immediate short term future of the imperium and milky way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/13 10:45:19


 
   
Made in be
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HH wasn't a pyrhicc victory for Chaos.

for Chaos as a whole it was victory. It's main objective was achieved during a thousand sons and master of mankind the destruction/ failure of the emperor's webway project.

For the emperor's ulterior goals it was probably an utter defeat.

For Horus Lupercal it was also an utter defeat.

For the loyalist primarchs it was a pyrhicc victory. They won the HH but the ideals they fought for were lost along the way down the line as a result.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/13 12:27:36





 
   
Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





HH was a Pyrrhic victory for the Imperium.
The Imperium won the battle (hence victory) but the cost was still crippling to them (like it was for Pyrrhus).

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The Horus Heresy was a slam dunk victory for Chaos. They got everything they could have hoped for out of it. Stagnating humanity that can't help but empower them with the Emperor confined into a situation where he can't even fight them.

Chaos Space Marines lost, and quite badly. But Chaos didn't give two rips about them.

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 Earth127 wrote:
HH wasn't a pyrhicc victory for Chaos.

for Chaos as a whole it was victory. It's main objective was achieved during a thousand sons and master of mankind the destruction/ failure of the emperor's webway project.

For the emperor's ulterior goals it was probably an utter defeat.

For Horus Lupercal it was also an utter defeat.

For the loyalist primarchs it was a pyrhicc victory. They won the HH but the ideals they fought for were lost along the way down the line as a result.


Yup. Every point is correct.

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 darkcloak wrote:
Considering the state of the Imperium now, would you argue that Chaos had actually won the HH, albeit at great cost?

Consider this. Horus was merely a pawn in the game and the true power behind his rebellion was the support of the hitherto unknown forces of Chaos. He nevertheless managed to completely divide the Legions, sack the empire and kill the physical form of its leader, while the powers of Chaos lost... nothing. If anything the events of the heresy only served to increase the holdings of Chaos, giving them an army of marines and a few primarchs too boot. Not to mention all the world's that were destroyed or corrupted! If we look at the long term effects of the HH we can see even more evidence that Chaos really came out on top. From the events on Terra, Chaos gained a number of strong leaders and warriors who went on to plague the imperium endlessly and in Abbadon we have the man responsible for the Great Rift.

Could it be that the Imperium has actually been losing the Long War ever since it started? Now with the galaxy doing an emoji impression, just how likely is it that the Imperium can recover and could the root of its undoing be found in the Horus Heresy?


Magnus had just as much to do with the Rift. Hes the one who kick started it. And yes, chaos won.
   
Made in gb
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UK

To the Gods of Chaos the HH was a small distraction from the Great Game.
Their champion failed to destroy the Emperor, but through this failure allowed the Iperium to become a superstitious easily corrupted never ending source of power for Chaos.
Its Emperor confined to a slowly crumbling Golden Throne. its greatest leaders the "Primarchs" either slain, missing, or corrupted, and its trillions of citizens and soldiers prime fodder for the Game.

So not so much a pyrrhic victory for Chaos, more of a slow burn victory
   
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Table wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Considering the state of the Imperium now, would you argue that Chaos had actually won the HH, albeit at great cost?

Consider this. Horus was merely a pawn in the game and the true power behind his rebellion was the support of the hitherto unknown forces of Chaos. He nevertheless managed to completely divide the Legions, sack the empire and kill the physical form of its leader, while the powers of Chaos lost... nothing. If anything the events of the heresy only served to increase the holdings of Chaos, giving them an army of marines and a few primarchs too boot. Not to mention all the world's that were destroyed or corrupted! If we look at the long term effects of the HH we can see even more evidence that Chaos really came out on top. From the events on Terra, Chaos gained a number of strong leaders and warriors who went on to plague the imperium endlessly and in Abbadon we have the man responsible for the Great Rift.

Could it be that the Imperium has actually been losing the Long War ever since it started? Now with the galaxy doing an emoji impression, just how likely is it that the Imperium can recover and could the root of its undoing be found in the Horus Heresy?


Magnus had just as much to do with the Rift. Hes the one who kick started it. And yes, chaos won.


#magnusdidnothingwrong

But seriously, as is the case with most things, it could all have been prevented by a bit of common sense and some, literal, foresight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/26 19:15:45


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 john27 wrote:
Table wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Considering the state of the Imperium now, would you argue that Chaos had actually won the HH, albeit at great cost?

Consider this. Horus was merely a pawn in the game and the true power behind his rebellion was the support of the hitherto unknown forces of Chaos. He nevertheless managed to completely divide the Legions, sack the empire and kill the physical form of its leader, while the powers of Chaos lost... nothing. If anything the events of the heresy only served to increase the holdings of Chaos, giving them an army of marines and a few primarchs too boot. Not to mention all the world's that were destroyed or corrupted! If we look at the long term effects of the HH we can see even more evidence that Chaos really came out on top. From the events on Terra, Chaos gained a number of strong leaders and warriors who went on to plague the imperium endlessly and in Abbadon we have the man responsible for the Great Rift.

Could it be that the Imperium has actually been losing the Long War ever since it started? Now with the galaxy doing an emoji impression, just how likely is it that the Imperium can recover and could the root of its undoing be found in the Horus Heresy?


Magnus had just as much to do with the Rift. Hes the one who kick started it. And yes, chaos won.


#magnusdidnothingwrong

But seriously, as is the case with most things, it could all have been prevented by a bit of common sense and some, literal, foresight.

Never apply common sense to 30k. Nobody comes off well.
   
 
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