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Made in us
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Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own. Some of us aren't into French Blueberries and Thundercats.

Flash forward to today, do you think that GW will eventually pull the forbidden Legions out of the dusty hat to introduce a new fluff/plot device? Did they already and I missed it?

Personally, I hope they get mentioned/hinted in future fluff, but remain the expunged Legions...forever a mystery as elusive as the Emperor's real name. I'd rather see a new alien race or something along those lines.

The Emperor loves me,
This I know,
For the Codex
Tells me so....

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No they a probably gonna remain missing forever because of the original creators intentions.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
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I would like a fluff novel where say an Inquisitor stumbled upon this forbidden knowledge and it's never actually revealed to the viewer. Just to remind everyone that there are 2 forgotten Legions.

Nah, an Inquisitor might be too over-used. Maybe a Librarian or a Mechanicus discovers a hidden trove of archeotech.... Yeah....

The Emperor loves me,
This I know,
For the Codex
Tells me so....

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Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own.

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors. IIRC they were later omitted because the people responsible for their fluff left company and GW either didn't wanted to deal with IP issues or deleted them to spite the creator, depending who you ask.

Man, imagine the name was brought back - there would be no end to screeching from alt-right types about "SJWs ruinining muh game with dem gay diversity" and "nu-fluff sucking"

And as for there being hints or new info found - that in fact happens all the time in books, and the list of 'hints' is quite long: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/First_Founding#Two_Unknown_Legions
   
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I wouldn't be surprised if GW/FW at some point, when they're finished with the Heresy and every chapter and even Grey Knights have primaris marines and the whole Chaos line is revamped and Plastic sisters got released - then GW could pull the two missing legions out the hat. Because GW can never have enough Space Marines.
   
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Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own. Some of us aren't into French Blueberries and Thundercats.

Flash forward to today, do you think that GW will eventually pull the forbidden Legions out of the dusty hat to introduce a new fluff/plot device? Did they already and I missed it?

Personally, I hope they get mentioned/hinted in future fluff, but remain the expunged Legions...forever a mystery as elusive as the Emperor's real name. I'd rather see a new alien race or something along those lines.


Another reason is what Tuomas Pirinen(former games developer there) called "closed doors". Concept Jervis taught to him and Tuomas specifically used those 2 legions as example. Basically off hand mention of something but not develop it further then leaving option to maybe come later and make players go "oo this was planned all the time?" when it was never planned but just thrown there "maybe in future" and give impression of many mysteries and careful preplanned universum when no such thing existed.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
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Actually the Rainbow Warriors have been name-checked in recent Black Library fiction - in Deathwatch Mission: Purge.

A Space Wolf is trying to guess the chapter of a 'blackshield' and one of his guesses is the Rainbow Warriors, because

"If I was one of them, I wouldn't admit it either."
"The Rainbow Warriors are proud sons of Gulliman!"
"Yes, but it's the Name..."

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Canada

Seriously the 2 missing Legions were the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors???

Zomg!

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Given the amount of "yeah, but we don't talk about them" present in the Heresy novels I don't think GW would flesh out the Lost Legions, given how much they'd have to go back and retcon to make it not sound silly.

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I thought Varus just lost them?

It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.
   
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I think it’s possible they’ll do a reveal eventually- I mean you can’t say they’ll never do it with complete certainty. My own hope is that they’ll give enough information to piece things together, like some massive Da Vinci code, without ever confirming or out-right saying the truth. However that’d take a lot of coordination and thinking ahead, and despite my day-dreaming most likely they won’t. Maybe we could see a II or XI legionary in a hypothetical late unification wars novel/setting. Given that all the legionaries were mostly unspecialized and their Primarchs not being around means we get to see them without actually learning anything particularly grievous.

Slightly cynical, but I suppose GW could always hold onto the reveal until they are in a major slump, and then make a Great Crusade setting based on the rules of the HH and introduce them. Since at least one potentially rebelled against the Emperor it’d make at least one or two narrative books like Vraks and other FW books, though obviously it’s not the only option (cough False Primarch book when cough XD) out there but would have a lot more appeal.
   
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Midlands, UK

I wouldn't put it past them to 'revive' the missing legions in the ongoing storyline. What if the missing legions were destroyed, at least in part, due to flaws in their geneseed? (Leading them to rebel and/or be persecuted etc.) Cawl has supposedly fixed geneseed flaws in the existing chapters, so I could see GW going along the road of Cawl having found some geneseed from the missing legions, 'fixed' it and created Primaris from it. It would be a lot easier to fit that in rather than using Chaos legion geneseed which people seem to variously discuss/hint at, if nobody knows or cares about the missing legions or why they were erased from history in the first place.

Voilà, a new chapter of Primaris marines completely unrelated to any of the old marine chapters, with new and different quirks which they can bring in, then greatly exaggerate over time.

I don't think I would want them to go that way - I think I prefer them to stay a mystery - but I wouldn't put it past them to do it.

   
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Nottingham, England

There are a ton of hints scattered through the heresy series, off the top of my head;

Malcadors 's throne on the cover of the Sigilite audio cd has two large skulls on it - numbered to match the 2 missing legions.

In Nemesis there is reference to the mission not being the first time assassins have been sent to kill a Primarch.

In another early heresy novel, Fulgrim has a large chart of Primarch physiology that has been made from someone. Outside chance it's Ferrus but unlikely.

Burning of Prospero mentions the Space Wolves have deployed to kill a chapter legion before.

There is a lot more, but it's been a long series and scattered across so much media now.....




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ChazSexington wrote:
I thought Varus just lost them?

It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.


No guarantee though that the lost legion isn't simply recreated from nearly nothing and the record of it removed, like the Imperial Fists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/11 18:45:35


 
   
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Nottingham

I think lots of novels over the years give hints, all of which contradict each other. Some novels suggest that they were destroyed, it's been mentioned that not all passed a test after being found, that not all primarchs took the lead of their legion, and that current chapters are the remnants (red tithe gives many hints that the carcharadons were one of the lost legions whose original commander failed the emperor 10,000 years ago.). As soon as they canonize them, they destroy a huge intrigue in the background, and ruin a lot of people's fun.

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 Irbis wrote:
Maxim C. Gatling wrote:
Long, long ago, in the mists of time, I got the chance to ask Rick P. and Jervis J. (separately) why the two missing Astartes Legions? I loved their answer: They wanted players to have the freedom to make up their own.

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors. IIRC they were later omitted because the people responsible for their fluff left company and GW either didn't wanted to deal with IP issues or deleted them to spite the creator, depending who you ask.

Man, imagine the name was brought back - there would be no end to screeching from alt-right types about "SJWs ruinining muh game with dem gay diversity" and "nu-fluff sucking"

And as for there being hints or new info found - that in fact happens all the time in books, and the list of 'hints' is quite long: https://1d4chan.org/wiki/First_Founding#Two_Unknown_Legions
well given that the "alt-right" has nothing to do w/40K to begin with I doubt they'd have much to say. When GW sticks to their previously established lore people tend to be content.

I was under the impression that the missing legions where a nod to the missing Roman legion.
   
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 darkcloak wrote:
Seriously the 2 missing Legions were the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors???

Well, they were, but seeing that is 30 year old canon no one repeated since first edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it was retconned...

 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...

R0bcrt wrote:
I think it’s possible they’ll do a reveal eventually- I mean you can’t say they’ll never do it with complete certainty. My own hope is that they’ll give enough information to piece things together, like some massive Da Vinci code, without ever confirming or out-right saying the truth. However that’d take a lot of coordination and thinking ahead, and despite my day-dreaming most likely they won’t. Maybe we could see a II or XI legionary in a hypothetical late unification wars novel/setting. Given that all the legionaries were mostly unspecialized and their Primarchs not being around means we get to see them without actually learning anything particularly grievous.

Slightly cynical, but I suppose GW could always hold onto the reveal until they are in a major slump, and then make a Great Crusade setting based on the rules of the HH and introduce them. Since at least one potentially rebelled against the Emperor it’d make at least one or two narrative books like Vraks and other FW books, though obviously it’s not the only option (cough False Primarch book when cough XD) out there but would have a lot more appeal.

I'd like to see it too, but seeing several major GW authors are fans of JJ Abrams approach to worldbuilding, aka making stuff up as you go, I wouldn't hold my breath.

As for FW options, I wish they made the Second Crusade canon. Sadly, after dropping this bombshell they apparently backtracked and now it's just origins store of these dumb Space Sharks. Pity.
   
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 Irbis wrote:

Isn't that just excuse invented ex post-facto? The first edition did in fact name all of them, missing two being the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors. IIRC they were later omitted because the people responsible for their fluff left company and GW either didn't wanted to deal with IP issues or deleted them to spite the creator, depending who you ask


Nope. GW never published a list of the 1st Founding before 2nd edition as they didn't want to lock people into it, hence the Valedictors being clearly stated to be Andy Chambers homebrew rather than an official part of the setting: "To help you see how to use the Space Marine army list, here's an example of a Marine regiment I've designed: the 3rd Regiment of the Valedictors Chapter. I've decided to use a chapter of my own so I can invent my own colours and background. The Valedictors are based in the far eastern fringe of the Empire, fighting Orks and Eldar raiders as well as battling Traitor forces in the Horus Heresy." (White Dwarf 126 page 24)

The Rainbow Warriors were just one of the 12 chapters in the Rogue Trader rulebook which were stated to be just a random selection of chapters operating in the 41st Millenium - the first mention of Foundings ('Origins of the Legiones Astartes' a few months later) stated that only 7 of the 1st Founding Chapters still existed, and the first of the 12 to be detailed was stated to be 3rd Founding.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/02/12 05:24:22


 
   
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 Irbis wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Seriously the 2 missing Legions were the Valedictors and Rainbow Warriors???

Well, they were, but seeing that is 30 year old canon no one repeated since first edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it was retconned...

 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...


That fluff also calls ultramarines as successor chapter of one of them so guess it's safe to say that's not valid fluff any more.



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 Irbis wrote:


 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...


Lost and the Purged are from Black Library, not Alan Bligh. And I seriously doubt they're going to drop the HH. It wasn't just Alan Bligh's project.
   
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 ChazSexington wrote:
 Irbis wrote:


 ChazSexington wrote:
It was hinted that one was lost during the Rangdan Xenocides. They're referred to as the Lost and the Purged.

Well, that was last good hint about them, but seeing the book was the pet project of deceased FW author that might no longer be canon/be retconned too...


Lost and the Purged are from Black Library, not Alan Bligh. And I seriously doubt they're going to drop the HH. It wasn't just Alan Bligh's project.


Yeah FW is moving onward with new books etc. Not likely HH is going to be dropped(that would be death of FW for starters) and why remove stuff. Is that book so much hated or why would FW drop it?

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I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82
   
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One of the legions wiped out(or rather nearly wiped out) is supposed to be the dark angels thenselves, I reckon. The rangdan xenocides is supposed to be the reason why tje dark angels aren’t the largest legion

   
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Carlovonsexron wrote:
One of the legions wiped out(or rather nearly wiped out) is supposed to be the dark angels thenselves, I reckon. The rangdan xenocides is supposed to be the reason why tje dark angels aren’t the largest legion


This makes no sense...

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Carlovonsexron wrote:
One of the legions wiped out(or rather nearly wiped out) is supposed to be the dark angels thenselves, I reckon. The rangdan xenocides is supposed to be the reason why tje dark angels aren’t the largest legion


No, the excerpt I read had a big [REDACTED] in the text, and made no mention of the Dark Angels. They also got a good kicking from the Rangdan, but my source suggests the other two Legions never returned at all.
   
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I don't know if, after all of the mystery, GW even *could* do the lost legions justice...

Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity 
   
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ThunderCracker wrote:

I don't know if, after all of the mystery, GW even *could* do the lost legions justice...


The danger when you add hints of mystery without planning what it actually is Good reason to keep it mystery. Alas I suspect GW in their greed will not keep it mystery forever

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tneva82 wrote:
ThunderCracker wrote:

I don't know if, after all of the mystery, GW even *could* do the lost legions justice...


The danger when you add hints of mystery without planning what it actually is Good reason to keep it mystery. Alas I suspect GW in their greed will not keep it mystery forever


Indeed. The lost Legions are hard work. For what it's worth, I'm currently working on both of them simultaneously. I'll be starting a WIP tonight, I think. I've no idea whether it'll be any good or not


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Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes

The Lost and the Purged can fairly easily be represented by the Blackshields in 30k.
   
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 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Lost and the Purged can fairly easily be represented by the Blackshields in 30k.


I was thinking more of creating my own take of them, with plenty of fluff thrown in. I've just written a small introduction to them both in Fanfic.

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 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was re-reading some of the Forge World books at the weekend (looking for background on the Death's Heads legion), and the clearest description of the fate of the two lost legions is in there, although right now, I can't remember exactly which book it was. IIRC, it was the Rangdan Xenocide, according to Lexicanum*, which appears to have wiped out entire Expeditionary fleets, titan legions and two entire Legions of Space Marines.

It still doesn't explain why those Legions are utterly proscribed, though. Was it because of their actions during this campaign, or were the remnants of the two Legions sent to their doom against the Rangdan to silence them?

1: The Horus Heresy Book Seven pg.81-82
2: The Horus Heresy Book Five pg.96
3: The Horus Heresy Book Three pg.82


I can imagine the records of the lost Legions being purged due to propaganda view if they were wiped by xenos. Astartes are supposed to be unstoppable, unbeatable military force. Being snuffed by xenos could quite hurt the morale of Imperium and irreversibly damage the image of Legions as almighty and superior to anything xenos.
   
 
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