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Do you get first blood if an enemy unit is wiped out due to moral?

Yes. First blood happens the moment a unit is destroyed.

More correctly first blood is awarded to the opposing player relative to the first unit that was destroyed, at the end of the game.

First blood says that both players get a point when a unit from each player gets destroyed at the same time. How is that even possible ?

 p5freak wrote:
First blood says that both players get a point when a unit from each player gets destroyed at the same time. How is that even possible ?

Arguably Explodes and similar rules take place at the moment the vehicle reaches zero wounds. If the explodes kills off your attacking unit it's possible that while they have to be resolved using sequencing, in terms of the game they both die simultaneously.

Also a psyker might perils himself to death in the process of killing your unit.

 Lance845 wrote:

Arguably Explodes and similar rules take place at the moment the vehicle reaches zero wounds. If the explodes kills off your attacking unit it's possible that while they have to be resolved using sequencing, in terms of the game they both die simultaneously.

A vehicle explodes first, then kills the attacking unit. Killing a daemon prince with the armor that deals mortal wounds to the attacking unit can also kill the attacking unit, but the demon prince dies first.

 Lance845 wrote:

Also a psyker might perils himself to death in the process of killing your unit.

If an enemy psyker perils himself to death the power is not manifested, if my unit is nearby and suffers the mortal wounds, and dies from that, the psyker still died first.

I feel like 'simultaneous' is poorly defined here.

The game the sequencing rules for simultaneous events, but it isn't clear whether these events played out in sequence are considered simultaneous.

I would say that logically they must still count as simultaneous for the purposes of the First Blood rule, otherwise it would never be possible for two separate units to be destroyed simultaneously. They would always be resolved separately in sequence.

If a vehicle explodes and that explosion kills both one of your and one of my units, I'd say that's simultaneous. Same could happen with Infernal Gateway. That's all I can think of that's truly simultaneous.

 Yarium wrote:
If a vehicle explodes and that explosion kills both one of your and one of my units, I'd say that's simultaneous. Same could happen with Infernal Gateway. That's all I can think of that's truly simultaneous.

The vehicle explodes first. Because of the sequencing rule nothing can be destroyed simultaneously in 40k, not even with infernal gateway. The players whose turn it is would decide which unit dies first.

 p5freak wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
If a vehicle explodes and that explosion kills both one of your and one of my units, I'd say that's simultaneous. Same could happen with Infernal Gateway. That's all I can think of that's truly simultaneous.

The vehicle explodes first. Because of the sequencing rule nothing can be destroyed simultaneously in 40k, not even with infernal gateway. The players whose turn it is would decide which unit dies first.

Thats not how the sequencing rules work.

The sequencing rules let the player whos turn it is decide which effects are RESOLVED first because it's a game and we need to concede to the fact that everything in the game isn't happening in real time. But when 2 or more effects are taking place at the same time they are STILL taking place at the same time regardless of what order you resolve them in.

Also acid blood from nids. You pick a unit in the fight phase and any time they take a wound you roll a die and the unit that cause that wound suffers a mortal wound.

I believe models that flee are not the same as casualties, otherwise necrons RP would allow for models that flee to be brought back, which they don't.

First blood calls for units to be destroyed. Models that flee are not destroyed per RP and some other rules.

Not sure "destroyed" is even defined in the rulebook. However given the necron RP FAQ models that flee are not casualties, so possibility exists that if an unit dies to morale it does not give first blood.

I wouldn't try to claim such, but given the FAQ ruling I wouldn't be shocked if GW had a FAQ that said units that are removed due to morale do not give first blood, surprised but not shocked.

RP is more the special snowflake exception. First blood only cares that an enemy unit no longer exists.

blaktoof wrote:

First blood calls for units to be destroyed. Models that flee are not destroyed per RP and some other rules.

Not sure "destroyed" is even defined in the rulebook. However given the necron RP FAQ models that flee are not casualties, so possibility exists that if an unit dies to morale it does not give first blood.

Designers commentary :

Q: When is a unit considered to be
‘completely destroyed’ or ‘wiped out’?
A: These two terms are used synonymously.
A unit is considered to be completely
destroyed when the last model in that
unit is destroyed (also referred to as slain)
or flees.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Thats not how the sequencing rules work.

The sequencing rules let the player whos turn it is decide which effects are RESOLVED first because it's a game and we need to concede to the fact that everything in the game isn't happening in real time. But when 2 or more effects are taking place at the same time they are STILL taking place at the same time regardless of what order you resolve them in.

Also acid blood from nids. You pick a unit in the fight phase and any time they take a wound you roll a die and the unit that cause that wound suffers a mortal wound.

A vehicle has to explode first, before the explosion kills the attacking unit. Its impossible to happen at the same time. Same with nids, they have to take the wound first, before the acid blood can hurt the attacker.

 p5freak wrote:
A vehicle has to explode first, before the explosion kills the attacking unit. Its impossible to happen at the same time. Same with nids, they have to take the wound first, before the acid blood can hurt the attacker.

I think this is always going to come down to your interpretation of 'at the same time'. Applying real world logic to it, or even the order that you roll the dice, you're right. One of those units dies first, and the other immediately afterward. The units did not die at the same time. Did the GW writers put the 'at the same time' line in because they were specifically thinking of times when it applied, or because they wanted to cover themselves just in case? It's hard to tell, given how inconsistent their writing tends to be. It may be that you can consider everything that happens as a result of one activation as happening at the same time - in this case everything that happens as the result of one unit's attacks. So in this interpretation the exploding vehicle and the enemy unit killed by the explosion might be killed 'at the same time' in game terms.

This is probably one of those things where peoples' interpretations will be split down the middle.

Well, they could have written "if units from each player die in the same turn, in the same fight" (something like that), both players get a point. That would cover a unit killed by an explosion of a vehicle, a unit killed by perils of the warp by a psyker, a unit killed by acid blood from nids, a unit killed by the armor of a daemon prince, etc.

 p5freak wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

First blood calls for units to be destroyed. Models that flee are not destroyed per RP and some other rules.

Not sure "destroyed" is even defined in the rulebook. However given the necron RP FAQ models that flee are not casualties, so possibility exists that if an unit dies to morale it does not give first blood.

Designers commentary :

Q: When is a unit considered to be
‘completely destroyed’ or ‘wiped out’?
A: These two terms are used synonymously.
A unit is considered to be completely
destroyed when the last model in that
unit is destroyed (also referred to as slain)
or flees.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

Thats not how the sequencing rules work.

The sequencing rules let the player whos turn it is decide which effects are RESOLVED first because it's a game and we need to concede to the fact that everything in the game isn't happening in real time. But when 2 or more effects are taking place at the same time they are STILL taking place at the same time regardless of what order you resolve them in.

Also acid blood from nids. You pick a unit in the fight phase and any time they take a wound you roll a die and the unit that cause that wound suffers a mortal wound.

A vehicle has to explode first, before the explosion kills the attacking unit. Its impossible to happen at the same time. Same with nids, they have to take the wound first, before the acid blood can hurt the attacker.

Thanks for that, seals it up nicely.

An Eldar character with the Phoenix Gem could kill both a friendly and an enemy unit at the same time. A Talos pain engine that's part of a unit of 2+ Taloses could explode and take out both a friendly and an enemy unit. I'm sure there are lots of ways to do it in other factions as well, even if it's not particularly likely to happen in a real game.

My Vehicle A is in combat with your Unit B, who is also in combat with my Unit C. Vehicle A explodes and kills both Units B and C.

Is that simultaneous?

 Octopoid wrote:
My Vehicle A is in combat with your Unit B, who is also in combat with my Unit C. Vehicle A explodes and kills both Units B and C.

Is that simultaneous?

Unit B and C, yes. However, Unit A would have to be destroyed first and thus grant First Blood.

Prime example would be plasma overcharge - 'the bearer is slain after all shots have been resolved.'

"Shot is resolved" would mean the rolls up to saves have been taken, at which time both the shooting model and the target (assuming it has been reduced down to 0W) are both slain.

 skchsan wrote:
Prime example would be plasma overcharge - 'the bearer is slain after all shots have been resolved.'

"Shot is resolved" would mean the rolls up to saves have been taken, at which time both the shooting model and the target (assuming it has been reduced down to 0W) are both slain.

No, after save rolls the damage is inflicted, killed models are destroyed, and removed from play (core rules pg.7 resolve attacks). If an enemy unit is wiped out by plasma shots they die first, then the attacking unit dies blowing up. Still not simultaneous.

 p5freak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Prime example would be plasma overcharge - 'the bearer is slain after all shots have been resolved.'

"Shot is resolved" would mean the rolls up to saves have been taken, at which time both the shooting model and the target (assuming it has been reduced down to 0W) are both slain.

No, after save rolls the damage is inflicted, killed models are destroyed, and removed from play (core rules pg.7 resolve attacks). If an enemy unit is wiped out by plasma shots they die first, then the attacking unit dies blowing up. Still not simultaneous.

When is the model 'slain' when shot and killed by plasma? After the shot is resolved.
When is the model 'slain' due to plasma overheat? After the shot is resolved.

They occur at the same time for all game purposes.

Per battle primer, 'Resolve Attack' includes from roll to hit to inflicting damage. The wielder and the target of plasma are both slain after the damage has been inflicted.

 skchsan wrote:

Per battle primer, 'Resolve Attack' includes from roll to hit to inflicting damage. The wielder and the target of plasma are both slain after the damage has been inflicted.

After the damage has been inflicted the attacked unit has been removed (if all models died). After that the bearer is slain ("...bearer is slain after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved."). Step 5 is inflicting damage and step 6 is bearer is slain. Its not simultaneous. Only the plasma shooting player gets first blood.

 p5freak wrote:
After the damage has been inflicted the attacked unit has been removed (if all models died). After that the bearer is slain ("...bearer is slain after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved."). Step 5 is inflicting damage and step 6 is bearer is slain. Its not simultaneous. Only the plasma shooting player gets first blood.

From Battle Primer pg 5. - '3. Shooting Phase'

Shooting Sequence
1.Choose unit to shoot with
2.Choose targets
3.Choose ranged weapon
4.Resolve attacks
• Make hit roll
• Make wound roll
• Enemy allocates wound
• Enemy makes saving throw
• Inflict damage

From Battle Primer pg 7.:

5. Inflict Damage: The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon used in the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.

Resolving the shot involves allocating damage and removing wounds. The following lines merely explain what happens when there are no more wounds left on the model. The line "if a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play" is the consequence of resolving the shot in which "a model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers."

Resolving attacks does not equate to removing casualties. The removal of casualties happen AFTER resolving the attack.

 skchsan wrote:


5. Inflict Damage: The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon used in the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.

 skchsan wrote:

Resolving attacks does not equate to removing casualties. The removal of casualties happen AFTER resolving the attack.

Removal of casualties also happens in step 5 inflict damage. "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play."

 skchsan wrote:

From Battle Primer pg 7.:

5. Inflict Damage: The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon used in the attack. A model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers. If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play. If a model loses several wounds from a single attack and is destroyed, any excess damage inflicted by that attack is lost and has no effect.

Resolving the shot involves allocating damage and removing wounds. The following lines merely explain what happens when there are no more wounds left on the model. The line "if a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play" is the consequence of resolving the shot in which "a model loses one wound for each point of damage it suffers."

Resolving attacks does not equate to removing casualties. The removal of casualties happen AFTER resolving the attack.

You've just quoted the exact part of the rulebook which confirms that casualties are removed as part of resolving attacks (specifically the inflict damage step). Models don't stand around on 0 wounds waiting for after the attack to be resolved.

No, what I have quoted is the directive in which you resolve an attack.

Step 5 of resolving an attack involves allocation of damage, and what allocation of damage does to the wound count.

Removal of models is causal effect of Wound reaching 0. It is a reminder to the most basic function of the game as to what happens to a model when Wound = 0, just like how the ruleset has reminded you through steps 1 & 4 that: "a roll of 1 automatically fails, regardless of any modifiers."

I mean, you're not accepting that the words 'remove models with 0 wounds from play' specifically in the inflict damage step means that models with 0 wounds are removed in the inflict damage step... so I don't know what to say to argue with that? The words are literally there in the rules.

To flip it around, why would you *not* remove the models during step 5 if they were reduced to 0 wounds, and only remove them *after* the attack has finished resolving? Do the rules support that interpretation?

 unitled wrote:
I mean, you're not accepting that the words 'remove models with 0 wounds from play' specifically in the inflict damage step means that models with 0 wounds are removed in the inflict damage step... so I don't know what to say to argue with that? The words are literally there in the rules.

To flip it around, why would you *not* remove the models during step 5 if they were reduced to 0 wounds, and only remove them *after* the attack has finished resolving? Do the rules support that interpretation?

No I am arguing that an attack has been resolved once the damage has been allocated. Removing models as casualty is not bound to the steps of resolving attack, but independent core mechanic.

The incusion of the removing model phrase is only there to serve as a reminder as to what happens to a model once it reaches 0 wound, just like how we're reminded that roll of 1 fails regardless of modifers.

So are you saying if a rule doesnt have 'roll of 1 fails regardless...' phrase in it, then it doesnt affect that roll? Clearly re-roll stratagem doesnt tell you if the reroll is a 1 it automatically fails.

Your case only pertains to a case when it has multiple models, as we're supposed to resolve each shooting attack individually. Fast rolling is just a means to speed up the process, but not the sequence.

The case of who dies first - single model dying from overheat plasma or the single model target - because each shot is resolved separately, both the models would be slain simultaneously because both are slain once the shots are resolved.

To answer your question in short, it doesnt matter whether the slain models remain until the end of the phase becuase the core rule specifically tells you you cannot allocate more wounds than a model has, and that any excess damage is lost unless otherwise stated.

 skchsan wrote:

 unitled wrote:
I mean, you're not accepting that the words 'remove models with 0 wounds from play' specifically in the inflict damage step means that models with 0 wounds are removed in the inflict damage step... so I don't know what to say to argue with that? The words are literally there in the rules.

To flip it around, why would you *not* remove the models during step 5 if they were reduced to 0 wounds, and only remove them *after* the attack has finished resolving? Do the rules support that interpretation?

No I am arguing that an attack has been resolved once the damage has been allocated. Removing models as casualty is not bound to the steps of resolving attack, but independent core mechanic.

The incusion of the removing model phrase is only there to serve as a reminder as to what happens to a model once it reaches 0 wound, just like how we're reminded that roll of 1 fails regardless of modifers.

So are you saying if a rule doesnt have 'roll of 1 fails regardless...' phrase in it, then it doesnt affect that roll? Clearly re-roll stratagem doesnt tell you if the reroll is a 1 it automatically fails.

Your case only pertains to a case when it has multiple models, as we're supposed to resolve each shooting attack individually. Fast rolling is just a means to speed up the process, but not the sequence.

The case of who dies first - single model dying from overheat plasma or the single model target - because each shot is resolved separately, both the models would be slain simultaneously because both are slain once the shots are resolved.

To answer your question in short, it doesnt matter whether the slain models remain until the end of the phase becuase the core rule specifically tells you you cannot allocate more wounds than a model has, and that any excess damage is lost unless otherwise stated.

From the Inflict Damage step:

"If a model's wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play."

That's part of stp 5, Inflict Damage. Removing the casualties is part of resolving the shot. By the time the shot is resolved, the target is slain and removed from the board before you take care of the model who fired the overheated plasma shot.