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The writer of Dark Imperium used the 'the Primarch needs no protection' line from the World Eaters in reference to Angron. Well Girlyman sure as hell needed protection from Fulgrim and Angron come to think of it LOL

Eh? So if he needed protection, how is he a Mary Sue?

Spetulhu wrote:
Eh? So if he needed protection, how is he a Mary Sue?

Because Matt Ward's idiocy was THAT powerful, no amount of revisionism or changes to the character of Rowboat Gorrilaman is going to change the perception of him.

People could always start saying the name correctly, for starters.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
People could always start saying the name correctly, for starters.

We could but... I think we shall make our own up instead.

The whole post-awakening storyline smacked of Mary Sue, but they were trying to make it more interesting than "Guilliman woke up and then went to Terra so he could talk to his dad and take command of the Imperium."

Think about what Guilliman means to the Imperium. After all this time, chaos was poised to finally just steamroll (more or less) everyone after the fall of Cadia. Well, they're not just gonna let that happen. Imagine the rage! Plus, no one faction should be "winning" at all. At the same time, given the nature of the conflicts in 40k, there's no reasonable way that anyone would survive multiple engagements with some of the strongest adversaries in the setting. So they let the nameless mooks die, otherwise they lose a character that will make them money.

When a daemon like Skarbrand can just come back every time he's killed, of course Guilliman is going to win the fight. Same with Magnus, same with whomever.

Now, it would be great if they could just write about him losing a battle once in a while, I think that would make the setting more interesting. I know he's a tactical genius and our spiritual liege, but there are some fights you just can't win... unless you're Guilliman, I guess.

The thing is he only won that fight with Magnus because he was being backed up by Sisters of Silence, he lost against Kairos Fateweaver earlier.

And the Skarbrand fight had him backed up by Grey Knights.. It's not like he was 1v1 dueling these things.

Well actually Roboute seems to be doing the opposite of Mary Sue-ing in that he is actually going out and doing stuff. So, not sure where the appellation comes from...

It's not like he is awake and just hanging out at Ultramar eating grapes while bards sing his imaginary praise. He's out there stomping stuff.

Also, pretty hard to make fun of someone for being a retconned windbag if they haven't been retconned yet... It's not like the writers are going back and saying look at all Roboute did, handing the achievements of other characters to him to call his own.

So, Mary Sue accusations completely tanked. As a guy who thinks that spiritual liege stuff is bunk and bad writing, I'm actually glad the Ultramarines are doing what they're doing. Like the writers are actually trying to justify the UM love and trying to shed that Mat Ward era hatred.

In fairness, Smurf Junior (Calgar) battered An'Grath 1v1 in the Blood Oath sourcebook.

locarno24 wrote:
In fairness, Smurf Junior (Calgar) battered An'Grath 1v1 in the Blood Oath sourcebook.

So did Lorgar who at the time wasn't empowered by the Chaos Gods and thus the weakest brother.

Robby G is an expedient plot device. It would have taken much more effort for fewer model sales to attribute the upswing in the IoM's fortunes to the effort of many in more complex cicumstances; it's more convenient to have a few heroes, with Robby G as kind of a figurehead. Unfortunately, GW's model doesn't really favor complex story telling at the moment. Which also probably means more Mary Sues with their own disproportionate share of glory are on their way.

Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.

Because Leman Russ popping out of the Warp totally wouldn't have been a Deus Ex Machina...

And the Eldar coming to wake up Girlyman isn't an Ex Machina.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the book is making Girlyman seem like a boss, the daemon saying I am death and him saying 'I've killed everyone who claims to be death' he didn't act so tough against Fulgrim or after Angron battered him and he literally crawled away from him on his hands and knees.

 jhe90 wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
People could always start saying the name correctly, for starters.

We could but... I think we shall make our own up instead.

Yeah, and it's fun, just like with that British actor, Bumblebee Crumplepie or something like that

His name is Girlyman, Girly by name Girly by nature.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Girlyman being the first to come back is just weak, its so predictable, Matt Ward is fapping right now. Leman Russ should have been the first during Warzone Fenris.

Because Leman Russ popping out of the Warp totally wouldn't have been a Deus Ex Machina...

It would have been less of one seeing as he wasn't dead.

The first one back should have been the Lion which would actually make sense. But that's not the GW way!

The Lion, Russ, Corax or Dorn would have been far more interesting plot wise.

Gulliman makes perfect sense for the first to come abck for several reasons.

1: His title as lord Commander makes it a bit easier for the ENTIRE IOM to use him so if the IoM has a single Primarch, Gulliman's a bit better as his field of vision is wider.
2: He's more useful at tweeking the IoM in general, Lemen Russ lacks the inclination or authority to do so.just for example.
3: his return was something they could wrap into a Quest. Lemen Russ showing up during the fenris fight woulda just been a deus ex machina, gulliman they managed to make a story out of.

and thats how primarch returns SHOULD be handled not... "OMG! GRIM DOOM OHH PRIAMRCH IS EHRE BATTLE WON" but rather the primarch's return should BE the story, Gulliman wasn't just the character but he was also the mcgruffin.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:The thing is he only won that fight with Magnus because he was being backed up by Sisters of Silence, he lost against Kairos Fateweaver earlier.

And the Skarbrand fight had him backed up by Grey Knights.. It's not like he was 1v1 dueling these things.

Did the dude even take a wound? A single scratch? I can't remember at this point, but I don't think it ever happened. Don't even get me started on being taken prisoner by Fateweaver. Wasn't tortured, wasn't roughed up at all, and why was he even taken prisoner at all? Some ridiculously convenient plot device, I'm sure.

darkcloak wrote:Well actually Roboute seems to be doing the opposite of Mary Sue-ing in that he is actually going out and doing stuff. So, not sure where the appellation comes from...

It's not like he is awake and just hanging out at Ultramar eating grapes while bards sing his imaginary praise. He's out there stomping stuff.

Also, pretty hard to make fun of someone for being a retconned windbag if they haven't been retconned yet... It's not like the writers are going back and saying look at all Roboute did, handing the achievements of other characters to him to call his own.

So, Mary Sue accusations completely tanked. As a guy who thinks that spiritual liege stuff is bunk and bad writing, I'm actually glad the Ultramarines are doing what they're doing. Like the writers are actually trying to justify the UM love and trying to shed that Mat Ward era hatred.

I don't particularly care about the "Mary Sue" trope or how it's defined. It isn't the hugest problem worthy of a ton of energy to get flustered about, but for whatever little it's worth I'm just not impressed with GW's storytelling when it comes to Guilliman. Really, that's the "big picture" fluff in general that involves these named characters. There is never any skin in the game. I guess Color Sergeant Kell would love to disagree with me, right?

I have no problems with Guilliman himself as a character. He isn't flawless, he's introspective, he's a good leader; I think he was the right choice to be the first to return. It's just... eh, I dunno, just not my favorite brand of storytelling they continually employ.

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman makes perfect sense for the first to come abck for several reasons.

1: His title as lord Commander makes it a bit easier for the ENTIRE IOM to use him so if the IoM has a single Primarch, Gulliman's a bit better as his field of vision is wider.
2: He's more useful at tweeking the IoM in general, Lemen Russ lacks the inclination or authority to do so.just for example.
3: his return was something they could wrap into a Quest. Lemen Russ showing up during the fenris fight woulda just been a deus ex machina, gulliman they managed to make a story out of.

and thats how primarch returns SHOULD be handled not... "OMG! GRIM DOOM OHH PRIAMRCH IS EHRE BATTLE WON" but rather the primarch's return should BE the story, Gulliman wasn't just the character but he was also the mcgruffin.

1. Former title. The dead lack authority.
2. The Lion would be better as he's alive.
3. The Lion could be the end of a quest without weird illogical Eldar intervention.

Guilliman just seems like a Mary Sue because Abaddon should have been just as cool as him for the past 25 years of fluff but that never materialized. And in the Dark Imperium the two of them should be the ultimate arch-enemies at this point, being the overall supreme commanders of each opposing force. But unfortunately, since the fall of Cadia Abaddon has done exactly the opposite - nothing.

Yeah, I was seriously expecting the CSM codex to expand a lot on what happened after the fall of Cadia.

1: Gulliman wasn't technicly dead. and his title was reinstated upon his return.
2: the Lion has shown neither the ability nor the inclination towards statesmanship. The Lion cannot bring about political reform in the IoM.
3: you mean something that allowed GW to bring in another faction to the storyline? I don't see that as a weakness I see it as a strength

BrianDavion wrote:
1: Gulliman wasn't technicly dead. and his title was reinstated upon his return.
2: the Lion has shown neither the ability nor the inclination towards statesmanship. The Lion cannot bring about political reform in the IoM.
3: you mean something that allowed GW to bring in another faction to the storyline? I don't see that as a weakness I see it as a strength

1. For all intents and purposes the lore was he was dead.
2. But really was a more logical choice for a story and could have been part of a good one too.
3. It's bad because either Guilleman is an Eldar or sleeper or there was no reason for them to bring him back. The choice makes no sense except to push the Poster Chapter.

A better alternative that ties in with all the new factions would have been the Emperor commanding the Custodes to awaken the Lion, they and the SoS launch a crusade, Chaos intervenes with a Nurgle focus and then have them battling through. A much better story that has a logical Primarch, a reason for SoS and Custodes to be added to 40k instead of just GW wanting to sell novels and allows a decent chance for Nurgles new models to have the spotlight during release. With the bonus of other factions being able to be included. For example the Orks are drawn to the fight and seeing the Lion is helpful the Ynnari take them on as a distraction.

the elder motivations for awakening Gulliman are explained VERY well in GS2.
Basicly they need humanity to serve as a fighting force against chaos but that humanity was fethed. they needed a leader who could unite them into an effective force. Gulliman

BrianDavion wrote:
the elder motivations for awakening Gulliman are explained VERY well in GS2.
Basicly they need humanity to serve as a fighting force against chaos but that humanity was fethed. they needed a leader who could unite them into an effective force. Gulliman

Who will either suffer "plot device" and die later or will go on to make the Imperium far too strong. The Lion is better from an Eldar perspective because he's good enough to unite humanity and lead the fight but bad enough to be destabilised later.

Restoring your enemy who wants to exterminate you to the height of their power with no drawbacks is stupid. As is the whole of GS2.

pm713 wrote:

Who will either suffer "plot device" and die later or will go on to make the Imperium far too strong. The Lion is better from an Eldar perspective because he's good enough to unite humanity and lead the fight but bad enough to be destabilised later.

Restoring your enemy who wants to exterminate you to the height of their power with no drawbacks is stupid. As is the whole of GS2.

In fairness the implication is that Guilliman won't be sufficient to actually bring the Imperium into an utterly superior position but just be enough to stymie Chaos. There's nothing to say that the Eldar know about or could wake up the Lion as far as I know.

I dislike a lot of the 8th Edition Fluff about Cawl and Guilliman but the reasoning for the Ynnari seems fair enough (especially considering reading the future is through probable occurrences rather than certainties).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Who will either suffer "plot device" and die later or will go on to make the Imperium far too strong. The Lion is better from an Eldar perspective because he's good enough to unite humanity and lead the fight but bad enough to be destabilised later.

Restoring your enemy who wants to exterminate you to the height of their power with no drawbacks is stupid. As is the whole of GS2.

In fairness the implication is that Guilliman won't be sufficient to actually bring the Imperium into an utterly superior position but just be enough to stymie Chaos. There's nothing to say that the Eldar know about or could wake up the Lion as far as I know.

I dislike a lot of the 8th Edition Fluff about Cawl and Guilliman but the reasoning for the Ynnari seems fair enough (especially considering reading the future is through probable occurrences rather than certainties).

If you can bring back the dead and transfigure Rubric's into normal Marines again you can find the Lion.

But there's still no reason for it to be Guilleman except writers fanboying. Not to mention Cawl. There are several other Primarchs that are much more logical but GW is nothing if not bad at writing.

How is it bad writing that they didn't pick the same primarch you would have? What role does logic even play?