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it seems that the recent female marine thread is gone. (Same happened to another feminism related thread recently.) I don't what happened, seemed somewhat civil last I saw it. In any case, please just lock threads, if you absolutely must, don't delete them. Some of us might want to actually read what was said.

Furthermore, it is unfortunate that any thread that has anything even remotely to do with feminism gets locked or deleted. It is not fair that couple trolls can shut down any discussion about such topics.

I am sure there are better places to discuss these pressing social issues other than Dakka?

 Sasori wrote:
I am sure there are better places to discuss these pressing social issues other than Dakka?

Well, it was basically about lack of female models in 40K.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I am sure there are better places to discuss these pressing social issues other than Dakka?

Well, it was basically about lack of female models in 40K.

It was more about Female Marines.

Not all female models need to be marines, but it's always the marines that people talk about.

To be fair, I have seen plenty of discussions on female marines, and those never end well and never yield anything productive.
I think the mods are right to delete such threads. The subject has already been discussed to death and tends to bring out the worst in people.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I am sure there are better places to discuss these pressing social issues other than Dakka?

Well, it was basically about lack of female models in 40K.

It was more about Female Marines.

Not all female models need to be marines, but it's always the marines that people talk about.

Right sure, whatever. No need to redo that discussion here. Point was that it was about 40K and thus appropriate topic for the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To be fair, I have seen plenty of discussions on female marines, and those never end well and never yield anything productive.
I think the mods are right to delete such threads. The subject has already been discussed to death and tends to bring out the worst in people.

Could we just ban those 'worst people' instead? If certain people always flame about certain topics, it is the people who are the problem, not the topic.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To be fair, I have seen plenty of discussions on female marines, and those never end well and never yield anything productive.
I think the mods are right to delete such threads. The subject has already been discussed to death and tends to bring out the worst in people.

It does seem there's been quite a lot of them lately, all trotting out the same points that always come up.

I certainly don't miss them being gone.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To be fair, I have seen plenty of discussions on female marines, and those never end well and never yield anything productive.
I think the mods are right to delete such threads. The subject has already been discussed to death and tends to bring out the worst in people.

This. Modson most sites don't want to delete threads, but when said threads generate a lot of internal drama on the site and when one topic nearly always results in the same pattern of behaviour then its no surprise that the site might well remove such discussions and even ban further talks on the subject.

It's not that such discussions can't happy without civil discussion; its that its been proven time and again that the forums society as a whole can't achieve that.

In my experience mods try to keep things running smooth without fights; fights lead to punishments and lost members and bad feelings - often over very trivial points.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I am sure there are better places to discuss these pressing social issues other than Dakka?

Well, it was basically about lack of female models in 40K.

It was more about Female Marines.

Not all female models need to be marines, but it's always the marines that people talk about.

Right sure, whatever. No need to redo that discussion here. Point was that it was about 40K and thus appropriate topic for the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To be fair, I have seen plenty of discussions on female marines, and those never end well and never yield anything productive.
I think the mods are right to delete such threads. The subject has already been discussed to death and tends to bring out the worst in people.

Could we just ban those 'worst people' instead? If certain people always flame about certain topics, it is the people who are the problem, not the topic.

It's better that we just don't have the topic come up over and over again with the same result. I've been on this board nearly 10 years, and it's never led to a reasonable discussion from any point of view, and always gets out of hand.. Just leave it alone, there is plenty other valuable content to be discussed on the boards.

 Sasori wrote:

It's better that we just don't have the topic come up over and over again with the same result. I've been on this board nearly 10 years, and it's never led to a reasonable discussion from any point of view, and always gets out of hand.. Just leave it alone, there is plenty other valuable content to be discussed on the boards.

Yeah, there are certain people who just don't want to this topic to be discussed. And instead of just not clicking the thread, they insist to trolling them to oblivion. That's not right.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

It's better that we just don't have the topic come up over and over again with the same result. I've been on this board nearly 10 years, and it's never led to a reasonable discussion from any point of view, and always gets out of hand.. Just leave it alone, there is plenty other valuable content to be discussed on the boards.

Yeah, there are certain people who just don't want to this topic to be discussed. And instead of just not clicking the thread, they insist to trolling them to oblivion. That's not right.

However, from another point, what's to say the people creating the threads aren't trolls themselves?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, from another point, what's to say the people creating the threads aren't trolls themselves?

It is really about being able to express one self civilly. Regardless of the topic, it is the people who are unable to do so which are the problem.

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
However, from another point, what's to say the people creating the threads aren't trolls themselves?

It is really about being able to express one self civilly. Regardless of the topic, it is the people who are unable to do so which are the problem.

Despite civility, there's only so far any conversation can go. If the same points are being trotted out on both sides, even if it's completely amiable and non-aggressive, if neither side budges, then it's just going to become a grudge match where the same arguments are repeated ad nauseam. It's not conducive at all, and that'll keep building until it does eventually turn hostile.

Unfortunately, talking about such a topic here is next-to-useless, because it's an issue that no matter what we say, it's GW who gets the final say. All the people on Dakka can do is repeat the same points that always get made until it dies off. When several of those threads have been made lately, it's no wonder they're deleted before they get further. I personally don't have an issue with that.

Maybe instead of making it about feminism, it would be more productive to make one about the actual models you want to see.

While I am a bit baffled that the one last night was deleted, it went 11 pages without too much trading of barbs because most people were discussing models they want to see, rather than 'muh feminism'.

Most people are rather sick of some folks dressing up their desire to see female models by presenting it as a feminism issue.

It isn't like waac and caac or buff and nerf threads result in reasonable discussion or yield anything productive either, but those are allowed to fester for months and months.

Some of the posts in the female space marine thread were gross enough that I never wanted to click on it again but the ugly part of a community doesn't stop being there just because we can't see them anymore.

 Actinium wrote:
It isn't like waac and caac or buff and nerf threads result in reasonable discussion or yield anything productive either, but those are allowed to fester for months and months.

Some of the posts in the female space marine thread were gross enough that I never wanted to click on it again but the ugly part of a community doesn't stop being there just because we can't see them anymore.

Yep, this.

At the end the thread went totally off the rails. It wasn't wholly uncivil and to my surprise the few people talking to each other at the end were having a somewhat productive, though heated conversation, in spite of having radically different viewpoints. However, it went fully off-topic into US politics territory. The real problem, at least according to the current rules here, is that someone always brings it there. People just can't discuss something like gender representation in particular without someone making it the 2016 election specifically, not even just gender politics in general.

 Luciferian wrote:
At the end the thread went totally off the rails. It wasn't wholly uncivil and to my surprise the few people talking to each other at the end were having a somewhat productive, though heated conversation, in spite of having radically different viewpoints. However, it went fully off-topic into US politics territory. The real problem, at least according to the current rules here, is that someone always brings it there. People just can't discuss something like gender representation in particular without someone making it the 2016 election specifically, not even just gender politics in general.

Even then, why delete the whole thread? Wouldn't a lock suffice?

 Crimson wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
At the end the thread went totally off the rails. It wasn't wholly uncivil and to my surprise the few people talking to each other at the end were having a somewhat productive, though heated conversation, in spite of having radically different viewpoints. However, it went fully off-topic into US politics territory. The real problem, at least according to the current rules here, is that someone always brings it there. People just can't discuss something like gender representation in particular without someone making it the 2016 election specifically, not even just gender politics in general.

Even then, why delete the whole thread? Wouldn't a lock suffice?

It shows that such behaviour and attitudes are not tolerated on the site to the point that such content is removed. Rather than try to pick out the posts its easier to just remove the whole thread.

It also likely aims to help present the forums for what they are; an honestly safe and good place for people of either gender to come and share in the enjoyment of the hobby. Instead of showing the ugly side (which is often only the result of peoples poor choice of words and of arguments and emotions getting heated and out of control). Why let an internet argument - which is what often a day or two of heated madness - spoil the enjoyment of the many and turn new people away when its onyl the actions of a vocal, but tiny few, that led to the thread going off the rails.

Please continue to delete these threads, and please do so sooner.
Dakka isnt the place.

I'd be sympathetic with the "you shouldn't delete threads" complaint IF it was a topic that was simply a forum-specific thread and a discussion that only involved gamers. However, it's a public forum and any gakky comments a random user decides to make can (and likely will) be held up as an example of the entire community.

So the mods have to risk A) looking like asses for deleting threads or B) look like asses and have the entire community mischaracterized by 1 or 2 individuals.

The entire topic has become very agenda and politically driven. Since the topic itself is an attack on the community - indirectly - and inevitably discussion around it does devolve into direct attacks on the community, it makes sense to just remove it.

I think I've read one article on the topic, and it was mostly a direct attack on the gaming community - broadly insulting everyone within it and filled with childish insults.

If the online world wanted to have a civil discussion about it without attacks, it probably wouldn't be a problem. However, civil discussions don't generate clicks. 1 or 2 sexist comments will however, be plenty enough bait for a twitter screenshot and 1000s of insults on the community as a whole.

SirWeeble wrote:

Since the topic itself is an attack on the community

What?

 Crimson wrote:

SirWeeble wrote:

Since the topic itself is an attack on the community

What?

He's talking about the framing of the debate itself. The most vocal proponents of things like female space marines argue from the viewpoint that there is a widespread problem with misogyny within the 40k community, and that things like female space marines are necessary in order to break up the "boys club" that is table top gaming. Likewise, anything other than agreement in those assumptions is a motivated protection of the status quo of misogyny. That may not be how people represent the issue here, but it doesn't change the fact that it is how the debate is framed in culture at large.

When a thread asking for more representation results in the request or even the requester being insulted, and nothing happens to the insulters, but the original poster's thread and their plea for more representation is deleted, that's pretty much the textbook definition of systemic inequality.

There doesn't need to be active persecution, the rules and policies in place effectively marginalize and silence the underrepresented. It sends a clear, if unintentional, message that if you don't want more representation in the hobby all you have to do is gak up the threads asking for it and those threads will go away.

 Actinium wrote:
When a thread asking for more representation results in the request or even the requester being insulted, and nothing happens to the insulters, but the original poster's thread and their plea for more representation is deleted, that's pretty much the textbook definition of systemic inequality.

There doesn't need to be active persecution, the rules and policies in place effectively marginalize and silence the underrepresented. It sends a clear, if unintentional, message that if you don't want more representation in the hobby all you have to do is gak up the threads asking for it and those threads will go away.

That is definitely not how things usually go down. Like I said, certain people take any criticism or even inquiry about the subject that doesn't align with their narrative as motivated protection of misogyny, which precludes honest and civil discussion form the start. Even your comment assumes that one side is inherently correct and it is the other side who is always at fault. In reality, these thypes of thread usually start off with each side giving reasonable arguments for or against things like female space marines, and once those get hashed out the topic broadens to larger cultural and political issues. All it takes is one person to then say, "We can't have female space marines because Trump," and the thread is over.

We really don't need more "feminism" or "minority" thread. There had been enough threads like those, again and again. Please, let this hobby, this game, out of all this.

 godardc wrote:
We really don't need more "feminism" or "minority" thread. There had been enough threads like those, again and again. Please, let this hobby, this game, out of all this.

You know, you have the option of not clicking on or participating in threads that you aren't interested in. I'm not interested in Infinity, but I don't feel the need to go in and troll every Infinity related topic just because I know that if I do, the thread will get locked.

 Crimson wrote:
Furthermore, it is unfortunate that any thread that has anything even remotely to do with feminism gets locked or deleted. It is not fair that couple trolls can shut down any discussion about such topics.

The heckler's veto has been an effective tool the entire time I've been on Dakka and I don't see it going away anytime soon.

 Ouze wrote:

 godardc wrote:
We really don't need more "feminism" or "minority" thread. There had been enough threads like those, again and again. Please, let this hobby, this game, out of all this.

You know, you have the option of not clicking on or participating in threads that you aren't interested in. I'm not interested in Infinity, but I don't feel the need to go in and troll every Infinity related topic just because I know that if I do, the thread will get locked.

 Crimson wrote:
Furthermore, it is unfortunate that any thread that has anything even remotely to do with feminism gets locked or deleted. It is not fair that couple trolls can shut down any discussion about such topics.

The heckler's veto has been an effective tool the entire time I've been on Dakka and I don't see it going away anytime soon.

And if you aren't interested in male space marines, you have the option of not playing 40k and not participating in forums where there are no female space marines.
Seriously, do you see how childish it is ?
Especially as I usually don't participate in such threads. Do you remember me trolling "feminism" thread ?

Let's all be honest, female space marines threads are purpose made to cause controversy in the first place. If there were a "We need female guard and more female models in general" thread, it would consist of everyone saying, "OK, sounds great."

 Luciferian wrote:

He's talking about the framing of the debate itself. The most vocal proponents of things like female space marines argue from the viewpoint that there is a widespread problem with misogyny within the 40k community, and that things like female space marines are necessary in order to break up the "boys club" that is table top gaming. Likewise, anything other than agreement in those assumptions is a motivated protection of the status quo of misogyny. That may not be how people represent the issue here, but it doesn't change the fact that it is how the debate is framed in culture at large.

Yes, exactly. Additionally, when there are groups of people who have a vested interest in stirring up controversy and who aren't really interested in addressing a problem (be it real real or imagined), then there is no right answer in addressing the issue. Your civil discussion will be ignored. Any negative outliers will be held up as the norm for the community at large.

A no win situation you didn't asked to be involved in isn't something most people in the community are interested in. We just want to play with our plastic soldiers.

If someone wants to attack GW, let them. GW assumedly has publicity people to deal with it. A motley crew of forum goers aren't equipped for this fight.