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Can a rule that may be used during a phase, in this case the Cloud of Flies stratagem during the Movement phase, be used after performing an action that must be done at the end of the phase, in this case reinforcements arriving at the end of the Movement phase?

Self evidently I would think not, being that specific end of phase actions need to happen last, but a friend is doggedly claiming he can invoke Sequencing by trying to use "during the phase" as equivalent to specifically "at the end of the phase".

Thoughts?

"At the end of the phase" is still in the phase so I would say you could use the stratagem. HIWPI would be to declare I'm going to use the stratagem on the guys I'm deepstriking as I'm setting them up.

I dont think you can change the order of things so they dont follow there rule at the end of the phase needs to happen at the end. I would say that they are not happening at the same time once you reach the end of somthing its the end

 The Sentinel wrote:
"At the end of the phase" is still in the phase so I would say you could use the stratagem. HIWPI would be to declare I'm going to use the stratagem on the guys I'm deepstriking as I'm setting them up.

Does using the stratagem after the reinforcements arrive at the end of phase action not then render they arrival before the end of the phase, and therefore not allowed?

Other wise wouldnt it be called the ending
The end of the phase is when it stops being a phase
The ending of a phase is the events leading up to the end


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the problem is that because we cannot make things happen instantly, when we reach the end of the phase it still feels like the phase is happening because the space after it hasnt been defined and given a name .

-movement phase-(this is the end of the phase)-psychic phase- -shooting phase-

I would also rule that "end of the phase" is the intermediate gap between where one phase ends and the subsequent begins.

The wayI see that phrase is " when the phase has ended, but before you begin the mext phase..."

Until you've stopped doing all Movement Phase things and decide to move on it's still the Movement Phase. You choose when you move on to the next Phase. Unless the Stratagem has specific timing written on it (e.g. "play at the start of X Phase") then play it whenever you like during the appropriate Phase. "At the end of X Phase" is still during that Phase, yes.

During is when something is happening. Once the end has happened you are no longer doing it.

This is my movement sentance. The full stop is the end of the sentance once you reach the full stop that sentance is over and somthing new now exsists

Once you pass the finnish line in a race that race is over the timer is stoped thats the end of the race. The end is a single point in time. Defining the point at which somthing stops being that thing

I don't think completing an end of phase action brings the Movement phase to an end, but there's a difference between not having any available actions left to take and the phase ending.

By definition end of phase actions need to take place at the end of the phase, which I think necessarily means after all other non-end of phase actions except other explicitly end of phase actions, which are resolved by the Sequencing rule.

For those saying because it's still "during the phase so you can do it," does it not retrospectively invalidate having set the unit up at the end of the phase, because it's no longer the end of the phase?

I would like to ask some questions if thats ok
when does the end of the phase happen? Is it when a new phase starts?

I think the way you are purposing is creating a sub phase? there is now a sub phase where only actions that happen at the end can happen?. Isnt this just giving the space that hasnt been defined a name. I think the key here is the wording is at the end meaning once the end has happened .

if it had said during the end then it would be diffrent as that is defining a time that happens whislt the phase is still active

ian wrote:
I would like to ask some questions if thats ok
when does the end of the phase happen? Is it when a new phase starts?

I think the way you are purposing is creating a sub phase? there is now a sub phase where only actions that happen at the end can happen?. Isnt this just giving the space that hasnt been defined a name. I think the key here is the wording is at the end meaning once the end has happened .

if it had said during the end then it would be diffrent as that is defining a time that happens whislt the phase is still active

The way I look at it the "at the start of X phase" and "at the end of X phase" put sequencing limitations on certain actions. For example a Cybernetica Datasmith can change the protocols of Kastelan Robots and also heal them. Both of these actions take place in the movement phase, but changing protocols takes place at the start of the phase and healing at the end of the phase. If I move any units in my army before attempting to change protocols I lose that chance this turn. I don't think anyone really has any issues with "at the start of X phase" because it's pretty clear once you start doing regular movement phase actions you have moved past the start. It's "at the end of the phase" that's not as clear. There are no definitions in the BRB that say the phase is over when X occurs.

I think there's some confusion (intentionally or otherwise) about actions that must be performed at the end of the phase. Some things need to be performed at the start of a phase, others at the end, others in the middle and some at any point during. This particular stratagem being worded as happening during the Movement phase suggests to me that it can be used any time up until you've started the Psychic phase.

Something saying it happens at the end of the movement phase doesn't mean it is, was and can only be the final action of the movement phase, or else you'd only be able to bring in one reserve unit, because they have to be brought in at the end.
It'd also mean there'd be some kind of time paradox in the fight phase if more than one unit charges, because they must fight first.

I see the at the begining and at the end to be diffrent. When you begin the movement phase its active and you perform actions when the end of the phase happens its not active anymore

I see the order of actions as

declare the start of the movement phase
Check if any actions happen here
Continue movement actions
Declare the end of the movement phase
Check if any actions happen

If you follow it like a time line
1:00 movement starts
1:01 its now during
1:05 movement stops
1:06 this is the point at which you can perform at the end of actions. But its not happening between 1:00-1:05 which would be defined as the phase because it has a clear begining and end. The end has to happen so you can use the actions "at the end"

I would say you cannot, because if you did then the unit was not arriving at the "end" of the phase, i.e. the reinforcements are the very last thing you do in that phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would say you cannot, because if you did then the unit was not arriving at the "end" of the phase, i.e. the reinforcements are the very last thing you do in that phase.

By that logic you cannot bring on more than one unit from reinforcements a turn, which isn't the way things work.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I would say you cannot, because if you did then the unit was not arriving at the "end" of the phase, i.e. the reinforcements are the very last thing you do in that phase.

By that logic you cannot bring on more than one unit from reinforcements a turn, which isn't the way things work.

They all arrive at the same time - end of the movement phase. Due to sequencing, it gets processed as putting down one unit at a time, but the reinforcements would be the last thing.

You don't get to place the reinforcements and then have the reinforcements do something else afterward as you are trying to do it after the end of the phase.

End = the final part or tail

Or

End = the termination of

I believe it is the former in this case.

So when you declare that you have moved your last unit you have to declare thats the end of the movement phase (the final part). Because these actions have to happen at a specifid time your forced to define the end.

End = the final part = subjective based on your own view point

Does it happen when all the units have moved? you have used all your during actions? or is it just when you decide to say its the end "part" now so i can deploy my unit declare a stratagem and still pick a unit to move because its still the movement phase?

End =the termination of = a clear defined point
I have finnished my movement phase

A helpfull point mite be to look at things that happen at the begining of the first battle round but before the first turn begins. Its point in time that has no name defined only by what its not

The end of the movement phase
Is a point in time defined by what it is not

Normal movement happens during the movement phase.
If a stratagem that has to be used "during the movement phase" can be used after a "at the end of the movement phase" action, then by the same logic you can also move units after others came in from reserve. Or even the units that just came in from reserve, because it's still "during the movement phase".
Using that line of argument makes any reference to "at the end of the phase" irrelevant, so I think it's erroneous. Things that happen "during the movement" phase must be performed before any action that happens "at the end of the phase".

End of the phase is end of the phase. You can do all things that happen at the end of the phase then. If you do something after that point that is not required 'at the end of the phase' then by definition the thing that should have been done at the end, was not.

Cloud of flies must happen before reinforcements else reinforcements aren't happening at the end of the phase

Nothing says you can't play that Stratagem at the end of a phase. So long as you're still in the Movement Phase it's valid. Anything else seems to be applying restrictions not written in the rules. Until you start the Psychic Phase it's still the Movement Phase so the Stratagem is eligible to be played.

Is'nt the rules on reinforcement stating "their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battle field"
specifically state that unit who arrive from reinforcement have used all their movement phase and so can't do anything more laying during the movement phase,like using a movement phase only stratagem ?

Surely we can agree that the end of something always follows during something?

You could do the during stratagem at the end of the phase but you must do the reinforcements at the end of the phase. If you decide to bring units in from tactical reserve you have signalled the end of the phase. It must be done last. Otherwise couldn't I move my units after reinforcements have arrived since they also move 'during' the movement phase.

surely we can agree that the end of something is also a part of it? If Reinforcements arrived "after the movement phase" then it'd be grand, but they don't they come in at the end, which is part of the movement phase, so it's during the phase.

craggy wrote:
surely we can agree that the end of something is also a part of it? If Reinforcements arrived "after the movement phase" then it'd be grand, but they don't they come in at the end, which is part of the movement phase, so it's during the phase.

Irrelevant, as helldrad pointed out another reason why you can't have the unit cast Cloud of Flies after arriving - in reinforcements it states "their entire movement phase is used in deploying to the battlefield". If they used their entire movement phase to do this, there's no movement phase left for them to use the stratagem.

Irrelevant? Very much relevant, as it's the whole crux of the issue.

Also the half-rule you're quoting is just a supplementary bit of 'splainy following "may not move or advance further" in the previous part of the sentence before the hyphen. It does not say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" anywhere.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Irrelevant? Very much relevant, as it's the whole crux of the issue.

Also the half-rule you're quoting is just a supplementary bit of 'splainy following "may not move or advance further" in the previous part of the sentence before the hyphen. It does not say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" anywhere.

No, it says you spend the entire movement phase in deploying, then it tells you that you are deployed at the end of the end of the movement phase. It doesn't need to say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" as it just told you it takes them the entire movement phase to get there and they deploy at the end. Playing a stratagem on the unit would be after the end of the movement phase.

Everybody who is saying that it is still during the phase

when does the end of the phase begin ? And how do you decided that ?

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Irrelevant? Very much relevant, as it's the whole crux of the issue.

Also the half-rule you're quoting is just a supplementary bit of 'splainy following "may not move or advance further" in the previous part of the sentence before the hyphen. It does not say "you may not play Stratagems on this unit" anywhere.

It doesn't need to, because its not too hard to reason that if the phase is over there is no opportunity to play stratagems that occur in said phase.

As I said earlier, if we take the logic that you're proposing further then I guess we can move units after deploying reinforcements because they also move during the phase. It something happens at the end, it has to by definition, happen last. If you do something else after that it has not happened last and you've broken the rules.

A stratagem played during a phase can be played at the end of it.
A stratagem (or reinforcement) that is played at the end of the phase MUST be played last.

Nobody is disputing that the last thing you can do in the movement phase, if you wish, is cloud of flies. You just can't do it after reinforcing because reinforcing must be done at the end of the phase. If you do something after something else, the first thing is no longer at the end of the phase.

ian wrote:
Everybody who is saying that it is still during the phase

when does the end of the phase begin ? And how do you decided that ?

If you spend the entire movement phase getting to where you deploy, how is there any movement phase left after deploying to use a stratagem on the unit that arrived at the end?