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It seems the current meta says plamagun > meltagun, but is this just hyperbole, or does the math work out really greatly in favor of plasma?

Both are a bit of overkill if you're targeting GEQ fodder, so assumedly you'd be targeting MEQ/TEQ or Vehicles with both. With 18-36 lasgun shots on a squad (assuming no HW team) you've already got MEQs covered fairly decently, especially if you're running infantry heavy. For TEQs, plasma seems like it will come out ahead just for 2 chances @ 2 damage each if < 12", despite 1 lower AP. But again, if you've got 2-3 squads each firing a pile of lasgun shots at a TEQ - it's going to get hurt.

So the last target is vehicles where melta seems like it will come out ahead, especially if it gets within 6".

I've seen a lot of the arguments for guard to have plasma - always overcharge, especially since that unit/model is expendable chaff anyway - and all of the mathhammer generally ranks plasma > melta assuming you're overcharging, but if you're overcharging with six squads firing it likely one will blow up first turn, probably one next turn. By the time you get to a juicy vehicle target on 2nd or 3rd turn, you may only have 4 of those plasmas left - assuming your enemy didn't wipe out a squad yet.

So, a few turns in, which is going to be more threatening? the 4 remaining plasma guns, or 6 melta guns? In addition to not slowly disappearing, meltas seem to offer more board control with the ever present threat of a 6 for straying too far into the swarm with a vehicle.

Note: My rambling here is mostly because I have nothing better to do, and partly because I'm hoping to start a swarmy fluffy DKOK army soonish. My only army atm is AdMech. I haven't gotten a lot of games in, but I've had some good luck with AdMech, even when using units that are derided as sub-optimal. There are alot of units in the game that have tactical uses like being threatening or offering board control that go beyond their math.

I really see no need for Melta with my Infantry squads when I have far more Anti-Tank weapons than I will ever need in most lists.

Plus I find the 24" range of the Plasma far more beneficial than the 12" range of the Melta.

The short range is killer. Being able to sit still and plink away at 24" vs being forced to get to within 12" to get any value out of your expensive gun is a big advantage. In addition, cadians reroll 1's just by standing still so you're not likely to lose many to overcharge unless it's -1 to hit.

RogueApiary wrote:
The short range is killer. Being able to sit still and plink away at 24" vs being forced to get to within 12" to get any value out of your expensive gun is a big advantage.

Not to mention needing to be within 6" to get the reroll on damage. Meltas need a fast platform that can zoom up quickly (or deep strike). Plasma guns don't.

 John Prins wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
The short range is killer. Being able to sit still and plink away at 24" vs being forced to get to within 12" to get any value out of your expensive gun is a big advantage.

Not to mention needing to be within 6" to get the reroll on damage. Meltas need a fast platform that can zoom up quickly (or deep strike). Plasma guns don't.

Luckily melta isn't as bad as that. It's not reroll. It's roll 2 pick highest. Might not sound big difference but it means you don't have to risk your 5 to reroll for 6. With rerolls would you be rerolling 3? 4? 5?

Still it's just ~1 extra(which is why I'm not that sold on catachan either) which is not that good and requires getting within 6" and even then you are only barely better than plasma vs tanks. Deep strike isn't btw that useful as you are way out of melta range there. And generally what you deep strike tends to die before they get to move again.

And as for blowing up with overcharge...That's what rerolls are for. Who rolls anything without rerolls in the edition of rerolls?

Yeah, I think the issue is essentially that while a single melta shot is *slightly* better than a plasma shot, the plasma gun is *vastly* more versatile: can shoot at twice the range, can shoot twice at the same range, can shoot at reduced strength while simultaneously removing the risk of frying the bearer. Sure, there’s a risk to overcharging plasma, but there’s also a risk to getting within 6” of something big and nasty. Not to mention that under most deployment conditions, a melta gun’s going to be spending at least one more turn than a plasma gun not able to shoot anything at all. I think, given how narrowly situational melta guns are, they need to be a fair chunk more effective, otherwise the massively increased versatil of a plasma gun makes it the better choice under almost any circumstances.

Also factor in reroll ones either harker or officers making only 1/36 plasma shots fails. Also if you do fire at geq you just dont overcharge.

Next factor in that a guardsman with a melta 6" from the enemy has the life expectancy of 0 anyway.

Finally factor in that unless your targeting a vehicle damage greater than 2 is a waste. So 2 shots becomes vastly more important against non vehicle targets

To top it all off you are paying almost twice as many points for the meltagun on regular infantry.

You don't need melta at all when you have plasma. In fact, you don't really need any other special weapon when you have plasma cause it's so good.

Let's put it this way. Melta can be 30% better than plasma in situations that occur 5% of the time. Plasma is 50% better than melta 95% of the time. Same goes to almost any other weapon that tries to compete with plasma. Furthermore, if you spam plasma, you won't even really need this 30% advantage that melta can potentially present cause an extra plasma will still be better than a single melta. And it's way easier to deliver more plasma into action AND it also covers all the other jobs that melta can't even hope to cover. In this regard, it's even worse of a no-brainer than grav used to be in 7-th.

Against a Tank (T7 3+) at 12" with re-roll 1's.
Overcharged Plasma 2 shots, 1,5 hits, 1 wound, 0.8 failed saves. 1,7 damage.
Melta 1 shot, 0,7 hit, 0.5 wound, no save, 1,8 damage.

So against tanks Melta is the tiniest bit better but add in an invul save from big monsters or a weaker target then a tank and the plasma comes out ahead.

Under 6" the melta becomes better but how often do you get that compared to being more then 12" away and the melta not even firing.

Mathematically speaking Plasma is simply better or equal while being cheaper.
And if your shooting without re-rolling 1's as guard your doing something wrong.

You talk about Turn 3 and on when you have more melta then plasma from incidental deaths but in what world do you get melta guns to walk up the board for 3 turns to get in range of a tank and not get them shoot off the table. Your guard after all.

People always talk about melta vs plasma, however, I think a better comparison would be melta vs lascannon.

In prior editions, Lascannons would almost never destroy a vehicle outright. Usually, they'd just strip a single hull point. If you really wanted to destroy a vehicle in one shot, you used a melta.

Now though, Lascannons and meltaguns both do the same damage - 1d6.

The Lascannon has +1S, the meltagun has -1AP. We'll call that a draw.

The meltagun also gets to roll 2d6 for damage when within 6". Okay, but since you can't deep strike within 9" of a target, it seems like you'll struggle to get into that range. What's more, with a range of just 12", even getting into its maximum range can be a challenge (especially for units that can't deep strike).

The Lascannon has +36" range. This is the key point, really. It doesn't need to deep strike or move close to its target. It can shoot across the board from turn 1.

Basically, it performs the same function as a meltagun, but can do so from a much greater distance.

The main reason Melta guns aren’t great on guardsmen is the range. Plasma is a rapd-fire 1 24” weapon, same as your lasguns. You’ll get to shoot something more often with a longer range gun and have more target options.

On basic infantry squads I go flamer or grenade launcher because all my melta and plasma guys are modeled as veterans. (Thanks 7th edition!) I still use Chimera and Taurox mounted vets, 2 squads with melta, one squad with plasma. The plasma guys tend to live longer and thus do more damage, but the melta squads are still handy for blowing up Rhinos or big nasties who get too close. I would never put a melta on basic infantry on foot, but 3 BS4 dudes leaping out of a Taurox is still capable of doing some killing. That AP-4 comes in handy against MEQ in cover...

Once you factor in the Regimental Doctrines that improve Rapid Fire weapons and multitude of ways to get re-rolls of 1, meltaguns fall even further behind.

I've faced IG armies where every squad has a plasma gun. I've faced space marines where every possible slot that can carry a plasmagun does. I'm currently using Admech and I tend to use both CC and Ranged in unison.

In neither case did the plasmas alter my strategy or pose a significant threat. They can plink away at my armor, but they never were enough of a threat in one area to keep me from stomping my armor into them or the tank they're protecting.

The times I've gone against anyone with meltas or multi-meltas though - they're a bit scarier to Fist Castellans and Dragoons or even a Dunecrawler if it is actually close enough (however unlikely). 2-3 lucky shots - goodbye Dunecrawler. 1 lucky shot = 1 dead Dragoon or Robot. So while the chance is low of a 1 turn death, it's still likely to make me consider moving somewhere else.

Plasmas regularly plink away at my dunecrawlers, but the combination of misses and low damage usually means I can just fix it back to full health at no cost.

I'm not questioning the math or your experiences. You all have more xp and knowledge on the topic than I and I havent even gotten many games in. Just wanted to see a perspective on the topic, as from my seat - plasma isn't that magical.

One plasma isn't. A deepstriking scion command squad offering 8+ plasma shots hitting on 3+ and getting extra shots for every 6 for just 85 pts is. If you get a couple of them, there won't even be anything to retaliate.

SirWeeble wrote:
I've faced IG armies where every squad has a plasma gun. I've faced space marines where every possible slot that can carry a plasmagun does. I'm currently using Admech and I tend to use both CC and Ranged in unison.

In neither case did the plasmas alter my strategy or pose a significant threat. They can plink away at my armor, but they never were enough of a threat in one area to keep me from stomping my armor into them or the tank they're protecting.

The times I've gone against anyone with meltas or multi-meltas though - they're a bit scarier to Fist Castellans and Dragoons or even a Dunecrawler if it is actually close enough (however unlikely). 2-3 lucky shots - goodbye Dunecrawler. 1 lucky shot = 1 dead Dragoon or Robot. So while the chance is low of a 1 turn death, it's still likely to make me consider moving somewhere else.

Plasmas regularly plink away at my dunecrawlers, but the combination of misses and low damage usually means I can just fix it back to full health at no cost.

I'm not questioning the math or your experiences. You all have more xp and knowledge on the topic than I and I havent even gotten many games in. Just wanted to see a perspective on the topic, as from my seat - plasma isn't that magical.

Selective memory mostly. It's simple mathematical fact that melta gun is only BARELY better at the short range. Yes lucky meltagun can kill dragon. Are you basing your strategies on luck though? Are you basing your IRL economic plans by hoping to win lottery?

Especially considering range(many of those IG melta gunners will be dead before getting to shoot even once nevermind getting to shoot within 6"!) you will kill more dunecrawlers with plasma than melta.

tneva82 wrote:

Selective memory mostly.

No, actually. Like i said.

SirWeeble wrote:

I'm not questioning the math or your experiences. You all have more xp and knowledge on the topic than I and I havent even gotten many games in.

 vipoid wrote:
People always talk about melta vs plasma, however, I think a better comparison would be melta vs lascannon.

In prior editions, Lascannons would almost never destroy a vehicle outright. Usually, they'd just strip a single hull point. If you really wanted to destroy a vehicle in one shot, you used a melta.

Now though, Lascannons and meltaguns both do the same damage - 1d6.

The Lascannon has +1S, the meltagun has -1AP. We'll call that a draw.

The meltagun also gets to roll 2d6 for damage when within 6". Okay, but since you can't deep strike within 9" of a target, it seems like you'll struggle to get into that range. What's more, with a range of just 12", even getting into its maximum range can be a challenge (especially for units that can't deep strike).

The Lascannon has +36" range. This is the key point, really. It doesn't need to deep strike or move close to its target. It can shoot across the board from turn 1.

Basically, it performs the same function as a meltagun, but can do so from a much greater distance.

Yep, this too. Basically, the big problem at the moment for melta weapons is that there's always an alternative that is almost or equally effective as them in terms of damage output, while being hugely more versatile. To make melta worthwhile, the reward needs to balance against the increased difficulty of using it. Personally, I think the easiest way of doing this is giving the damage at half range a bigger boost than just 2D6 pick the highest. Either a flat modifier to the damage roll, or more dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course the other issue is that overcharged plasma guns are too *easy* to use effectively. We're getting into the realm of Proposed Rules here, but I think overcharging needs to give you a bigger drawback. Make it Heavy 1, perhaps?

SirWeeble wrote:
I've faced IG armies where every squad has a plasma gun. I've faced space marines where every possible slot that can carry a plasmagun does. I'm currently using Admech and I tend to use both CC and Ranged in unison.

In neither case did the plasmas alter my strategy or pose a significant threat. They can plink away at my armor, but they never were enough of a threat in one area to keep me from stomping my armor into them or the tank they're protecting.

The times I've gone against anyone with meltas or multi-meltas though - they're a bit scarier to Fist Castellans and Dragoons or even a Dunecrawler if it is actually close enough (however unlikely). 2-3 lucky shots - goodbye Dunecrawler. 1 lucky shot = 1 dead Dragoon or Robot. So while the chance is low of a 1 turn death, it's still likely to make me consider moving somewhere else.

Plasmas regularly plink away at my dunecrawlers, but the combination of misses and low damage usually means I can just fix it back to full health at no cost.

I'm not questioning the math or your experiences. You all have more xp and knowledge on the topic than I and I havent even gotten many games in. Just wanted to see a perspective on the topic, as from my seat - plasma isn't that magical.

If your opponent is shooting Plasma at your bots, it sounds like they aren't bringing enough heavy weapons, or buff auras.

My Guard army would only be shooting their Plasma at a vehicle or bot that has one, maybe two wounds left. The 24 heavy weapons scattered throughout my infantry and heavy weapon squads normally don't give Ad Mech enough time to repair their stuff, since I generally make sure to kill what I target. That is also not including the Russes. Plasma should never be your main anti-vehicle tech unless your Dark Angels with Hellblasters and Weapons of the Dark Age.

Plasma is for anti infantry wet work in a Guard army. Which is why ALL of my infantry squads have one. A slew of Guardsmen with Plasma will leave most armies in a rough spot. My Guard absolutely terrify the local Death Guard and Thousand Sons player because of the sheer weight of Plasma fire destroying their infantry. I'm not trying to downplay your observations, but it seems your opponents aren't bringing enough of the right tools.

Guard lack a good way to deliver melta guns to a short range, and so melta guns are not good for guard. On the contrary example, sisters of battle can deliver a number into short range, and Malta’s can and often do make up the bulk of a sister’s anti tank.

It depends on the armies. Melta doesn’t work for guard, or really for space marines, but is great for sisters

That's part of why Las/plas is so popular. Plasma chews up just about anything and Las ensures the squad can smack around bigger threats if ignored. It has it's downsides, namely price for points, but they can be fun to run en masse.

Like any weapon you need other things to fill its gaps. For guard infantry, the big players are lasguns, lascannons, plasma, and mortars. Other weapons have uses but those 4 are almost always useful. You just need a healthy balance. Melta can be fun and hit really hard but in anything more than a casual game you won't get to actually shoot them very often. Melta draws a lot of attention and bad memories from previous editions, so people tend to focus these squads down even if there are more powerful threats nearby. So when I'm paying almost as much as a lascannon in some instances why wouldn't I just bring the lascannon instead, gives me 4x the range and an extra S at the expense of 1 AP that's normally stopped by invuln or cover anyways.

stratigo wrote:
Guard lack a good way to deliver melta guns to a short range, and so melta guns are not good for guard. On the contrary example, sisters of battle can deliver a number into short range, and Malta’s can and often do make up the bulk of a sister’s anti tank.

Sisters deliver meltaguns into range by driving up the board in rhinos rather than chimeras. They don't even have the deepstrike options that guard do.

Meltaguns make up the bulk of a sisters anti-tank because they are the sisters only have meltaguns, flamers, and stormbolters to choose from. If they had plasma the only reason not to take them instead would be tradition.

A.T. wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Guard lack a good way to deliver melta guns to a short range, and so melta guns are not good for guard. On the contrary example, sisters of battle can deliver a number into short range, and Malta’s can and often do make up the bulk of a sister’s anti tank.

Sisters deliver meltaguns into range by driving up the board in rhinos rather than chimeras. They don't even have the deepstrike options that guard do.

Meltaguns make up the bulk of a sisters anti-tank because they are the sisters only have meltaguns, flamers, and stormbolters to choose from. If they had plasma the only reason not to take them instead would be tradition.

SoB Dominion squads have a vanguard move.

And Guard have Scions for deepstriking Melta.

But why would you want to deepstrike melta if you can deepstrike plazma? It's only around 5% less effective at killing tanks with 3+ armor but is cheaper and much better at killing other stuff.
Besides, as it has more shots with predefined damage, it's more reliable. You're not getting within 6' for the re-rolled damage anywayz.

 koooaei wrote:
But why would you want to deepstrike melta if you can deepstrike plazma? It's only around 5% less effective at killing tanks with 3+ armor but is cheaper and much better at killing other stuff.
Besides, as it has more shots with predefined damage, it's more reliable. You're not getting within 6' for the re-rolled damage anywayz.

I'm not saying you should.
Someone said Guard had no way to get melta in range. I say they have Scions.

Why does everyone miss out from these discussions that Melta shouldn't be "As Good" as Plasma.
Melta needs to be _Better_ than Plasma because Metalguns cost significantly more points.

Most of these debates seem to be about proving that against specific targets they're about equal, but equal doesn't cut it when my plasmagun is cheaper.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
Why does everyone miss out from these discussions that Melta shouldn't be "As Good" as Plasma.
Melta needs to be _Better_ than Plasma because Metalguns cost significantly more points.

Most of these debates seem to be about proving that against specific targets they're about equal, but equal doesn't cut it when my plasmagun is cheaper.

Because we are discussing what is, not what should be.
It logically follows that if Melta is not better then Plasma but costs more that it is a worse choice.

Personally I use Melta on guardsmen, but it's a corner case...

Krieg find it very difficult to reroll 1s. Literally the only way for us to get our hands on any kind of reroll to hit is if we take Yarrick.

Krieg also get grenadiers, who take 2 special weapons in teams of 5

Krieg also get centaur scout tanks, who get a 9" scout move, and have a standard 12" move. They can take 5-man grenadier squads, and only them really.

You put all these together, and you get a decent enough unit that can perform a few roles: deepstrike denial, midtable annoyance with tank charges to tie up guns, and a decent chance at <6" melta shots.

I think that's how niche melta is: the stars have to align for it to be a viable choice. In every other circumstance I know of, plasma wins. Maybe grav chute out the back of a valkyrie could be viable too, at a stretch?

 vipoid wrote:
People always talk about melta vs plasma, however, I think a better comparison would be melta vs lascannon.
....
Basically, it performs the same function as a meltagun, but can do so from a much greater distance.

But, Lascannon is a heavy weapon requiring a change to a HWT, and Melta can be taken by a single model.
It's not a big problem, but some squads cannot take HWT.

IG can be given orders. They can make a difference, if the right orders are given.