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I have a unit of marines in range of a Darkshroud giving them -1 to hit protection. Enemy flier (Fire Raptor) is splitting shots between Darkshroud and marines. He shoots all lascannon shots at Darkshroud and heavy bolters at marines. He chooses to resolve attacks on Darkshroud first and kills it. Does he still have to subtract 1 from his heavy bolter to hit rolls on marines because all shots happen at the same time?

Shooting for a unit happens all at once.
So yes he would still need to -1 at the marines.

No, he does not have a -1 to hit the marines. Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time. At the time of firing a given weapon you check if anything confers a -1 to hit, and no such effect is in play by the time he chooses to fire with the heavy bolters.

Shots from a multi shot weapon are simultaneous, but they all have to fire at the same target of course.

Stux wrote:
Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time.

Shooting from a unit is considered to be simultaneous, which is why you choose all of your targets at one time, etc. They are simply resolved sequentially.

 Ghaz wrote:

Stux wrote:
Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time.

Shooting from a unit is considered to be simultaneous, which is why you choose all of your targets at one time, etc. They are simply resolved sequentially.

Yet when a model not in cover dies, if the remaining models are in cover they all get a cover bonus despite shooting being considered to be simultaneous. I would say this would be like the cover situation - if you take out the thing causing -1 to hit before firing other weapons, you don't have the -1 for those other weapons as these are resolved sequentially.

Shooting and saves happen at different times. And you have to declare what models are taking the hit technically which is something the majority of the players don't do.

Fireint of a unit happens all at the same time. Your marines still have a -1

Stux wrote:
No, he does not have a -1 to hit the marines. Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time. At the time of firing a given weapon you check if anything confers a -1 to hit, and no such effect is in play by the time he chooses to fire with the heavy bolters.

Shots from a multi shot weapon are simultaneous, but they all have to fire at the same target of course.

Seems to be me if that were true you'd be able to fire some weapons on a target see if it dies then declare more shots on it from another weapon if the target is still alive or switch to another target if it's dead.

Mossada wrote:

Stux wrote:
No, he does not have a -1 to hit the marines. Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time. At the time of firing a given weapon you check if anything confers a -1 to hit, and no such effect is in play by the time he chooses to fire with the heavy bolters.

Shots from a multi shot weapon are simultaneous, but they all have to fire at the same target of course.

Seems to be me if that were true you'd be able to fire some weapons on a target see if it dies then declare more shots on it from another weapon if the target is still alive or switch to another target if it's dead.

that's the point. All shots happen at once, all wounds happen at once, all saves happen at once.

Stux wrote:
No, he does not have a -1 to hit the marines. Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time. At the time of firing a given weapon you check if anything confers a -1 to hit, and no such effect is in play by the time he chooses to fire with the heavy bolters.

Shots from a multi shot weapon are simultaneous, but they all have to fire at the same target of course.

Weapons are not fired simultaneously, but targets of shots from a single unit must all be declared before resolving any attacks.

Thus, he cannot "choose to fire his heavy bolters" after the fact that the DS, which provides the -hit modifier, is no longer in play.

Both units get -1 hit modifiers.

 skchsan wrote:

Stux wrote:
No, he does not have a -1 to hit the marines. Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time. At the time of firing a given weapon you check if anything confers a -1 to hit, and no such effect is in play by the time he chooses to fire with the heavy bolters.

Shots from a multi shot weapon are simultaneous, but they all have to fire at the same target of course.

Weapons are not fired simultaneously, but targets of shots from a single unit must all be declared before resolving any attacks.

Thus, he cannot "choose to fire his heavy bolters" after the fact that the DS, which provides the -hit modifier, is no longer in play.

Both units get -1 hit modifiers.

Ok, I concede that the choice of target is locked in, but you don't check for modifiers until the time you make the roll, at which point in this example there is no modifier to apply.

I don't think conditions change after you declare your shooting. Otherwise you could remove models that are in range of shooting weapon 1 but out of range for weapon 2 and then declare that weapon 2 can't shoot due to range. (I'm a newbie so maybe this is legit. But...)

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't think conditions change after you declare your shooting. Otherwise you could remove models that are in range of shooting weapon 1 but out of range for weapon 2 and then declare that weapon 2 can't shoot due to range. (I'm a newbie so maybe this is legit. But...)

You are right that you can't do that, but it's a different situation. You check all ranges before the unit makes any attacks. It's not because of general rule that conditions don't change, it's because the rules explicitly say you check all ranges first.

Another example of bad rules writing by GW. Put it on the list of "I hope this gets resolved in a FAQ and doesn't turn into a 30 page YMDC BCB yelling at people thread."

The "if a model dies out of cover leaving the rest of the unit in cover" exception to the declare all shots and then resolve them rule seems to be the genesis of this problem.

For simplicity's sake I'd hope they rule "resolve all shots from a unit using the modifiers present when targets are chosen." Simple, done, no exceptions. Fits well with the measure once, then shoot and will help speed up the game.

Knowing GW they will make some bespoke rule about negative modifiers and space marine armies which contradicts other rules and then not FAQ it for a couple months...

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Shooting for a unit happens all at once.
So yes he would still need to -1 at the marines.

Citation please. I don't see anything in the battle primer that says that all shots happen all at once or at the same time.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Shooting and saves happen at different times. And you have to declare what models are taking the hit technically which is something the majority of the players don't do.

Fireint of a unit happens all at the same time. Your marines still have a -1

Attacks are still resolved sequentially, so you've processed all the shots from the first weapon type - which includes removing models that have reached 0 wounds - before you would be firing the other weapon type.

Yes, you have to declare which weapons are shooting at which units before doing any firing, but the resolution is sequential. so results due to a model being removed from play - whether it''s allowing a cover save after that because it was the last model outside cover, or other models or units losing shrouding because of losing the model that granted it - get resolved equentially. We have a FAQ that tells us when the last model that isn't in cover is destroyed, the rest of the unit gets a cover save. This is a similar situation. When the model giving shrouded is removed, any shots rolled after that don't suffer from shrouded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mossada wrote:

Stux wrote:
No, he does not have a -1 to hit the marines. Weapons are not fired simultaneously, they are fired one at a time. At the time of firing a given weapon you check if anything confers a -1 to hit, and no such effect is in play by the time he chooses to fire with the heavy bolters.

Shots from a multi shot weapon are simultaneous, but they all have to fire at the same target of course.

Seems to be me if that were true you'd be able to fire some weapons on a target see if it dies then declare more shots on it from another weapon if the target is still alive or switch to another target if it's dead.

No, you have to declare which weapons are firing at which units before you resolve any shots at all. "In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit's shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next." After that declaration, however, they are resolved sequentially


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't think conditions change after you declare your shooting. Otherwise you could remove models that are in range of shooting weapon 1 but out of range for weapon 2 and then declare that weapon 2 can't shoot due to range. (I'm a newbie so maybe this is legit. But...)

If conditions don't change after declarations, then a unit with one model not getting cover would never get a cover bonus during the resolution of shooting once that model was a casualty. We know, however, you can in fact change things as the result of the dice rolls. Specifying range is a strawman issue here, however, as the rules specify a certain point of time to check range, and you aren't rechecking it later.

You can't benefit from a buff from a model that has been killed. If it ain't there it ain't there.

Once the Darkshroud is dead and removed the nearby units immediately stop receiving its benefits.

The aura effects don't linger on because the Darkshroud *was* there when yet-to-be-resolved shots were declared. That just isn't how things work.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You can't benefit from a buff from a model that has been killed. If it ain't there it ain't there.

Once the Darkshroud is dead and removed the nearby units immediately stop receiving its benefits.

The aura effects don't linger on because the Darkshroud *was* there when yet-to-be-resolved shots were declared. That just isn't how things work.

I agree, it doesn't matter if it was all fired from the one unit, if it dies then the buff is gone immediately