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Hello Dakka,

Since day 1, and I've always stayed true to the Xenos armies (Tyranids, Eldar, and later Tau). But lately, I've fallen deeply in love with the Imperium. It is, of course, the Deathwatch Chapter I here speak of. All from the black-and-silver aesthetics, to the XCOM near-RPG feel of the army. So it is with a heavy heart that I am pressing submit, forever surrendering my fate in the hands of the one and only true god; The Emperor of Mankind.

ANYWAY; I've done my homework, and I've set my eyes on certain models to kickstart the Deathwatch army.

Here's the list of boxes, that I'm thinking of buying:
- Deathwatch: Start Collecting (x2)
- Corvus Blackstar (2x)
- Watch Master
- Vanguard Veteran Squad
- Primaris Hellblasters

Here's what I'm contemplating:
- Terminators
- Assault Terminators
- Bikes (mainly for Kill Teams)
- Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought (FW)
- Razorback
- Primaris (other than the Hellblasters, that can work well with DW)

Here's my assumptions regarding Deathwatch units available;
1) Kill Teams are the very core of any Deathwatch army. They come with a hefty point tag, but all extra points spend goes into more attacks, special ammo, and flexibility.

2) Heavy Weapons. Frag Cannons are the alpha and the omega. Assault weapons that outshine ANY other handheld weapons available to the Kill Teams.

3) Mêleé weapons, in the other hand (pun intended) is harder to determine. At first, I was sold on Power Swords. But frankly, that -3 AP doesn't get you far. The PA actually performs slightly better than the PS Double Lightning Claws, however... Hoo boy, do they rip through anything, GEQ and MEQ alike (just not vehicles). And with the re-rolls on to wound. Ouch! Lastly, there's S8 weapons. And while both Thunder Hammers and Power Fists performs almost identical, the Heavy Thunder Hammer has the greatest potential (damage wise). It's still a hefty price though, and can only be wielded by "Vanilla Vets" (eg. No 3x attacks).

4) Vanguard Vets and Bikers seems to come into their own right. The VG fallback and shoot (for Frag Cannon / shooty Teams), and the Bikers (for Mêleé teams, that gets caught in the wrong fight).

5) Terminators, however, doesn't really seem to perform that well. The only thing they do better is +1 to the save. Their point cost doesn't justify taking them over 2 Vanilla Vets. Weapon loadout? Nope. Mêleé? No!. Heavy weapons? Well..., the Cyclone ML does outperform the FC against certain profiles (T5/2+, Harpy, Dread, Leman Russ), but you pay SO much more for each WPP. The only reason to take them would be to teleport the Kill Team out of harm's way. But I'm not sold to that idea.

6) VEHICLES was a bummer. I was really hoping to see a Land Raider on the tabletop. Well... The Land Raiders seems to perform well against certain profiles. But the Corvus, while not being the shooty platform that the LRs are, has better capabilities of getting your Troops from A to B. The LR does have it's benefits, and depending on its type (or loadout if you prefer), it can add to what type of fire power you lack (Crusaders vs. GEQs, Redeemer vs MEQ and lighter vehicles, and the Vanilla LR vs Heavy stuff).

7) Hellblasters (with Plasma Incinerators), like so many other Primaris Marines, are reliant on transports. And the only transport available takes up too many points. But in a Deathwatch list, with the Angelic Beacon relic, when placed on a deep striking unit, can teleport them into RF range. And to top that off, we got the hit re-rolls from the Watch Masters and the Captains (to prevent Plasma burns).

8) Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought. Aaah, yes. This piece of destruction comes into its own right. With 9W and the Character rule, it's able to screen itself off. But here's the real kicker: The Icon of Hate; "All friendly models with the <CHAPTER> keyword in combat with the same unit as a model with this ability add +1 to their Strength characteristic for the duration of the Fight phase.". I can't even start to IMAGINE the amount of carnage this model can cause.


Anyway, that's what I've got so far. I'm still doing some research here and there, with some added Excel madness, when I need to determine what works the best. I've never had a game with - or against - Deathwatch. I've simply just fallen in love with the army, and aam therefore strongly contemplating the idea of starting out playing them.

So any input you can add is strongly appreciated. Is there some areas that I've missed? Am I spot on in others?

Regards,
Bill'

Deathwatch have a Codex coming this year. I don't know how soon you are looking at starting one, but things will likely change a bit once it drops. They'll likely get more unit options and stuff will be rebalanced. They are in a bit of a rough spot right now so it's tough to really say what would be the best way to go.

If you want a rough bit of my knowledge on how they run, Kill Teams with 1x Frag Cannon Marine and 1x Marine with a Storm Shield are pretty nice. Keep bolters and chain swords on others and possibly upgrade the Sgt to a Combi. Make sure you load up on transports. Razorbacks, Rhinos, or Blackstar. Troops are too expensive to leave in the open for how fragile they are.

I would assume Primaris will get special rules in the upcoming codex, but right now they are worse than every other SM faction since they don't benefit from the Deathwatch tactics.

 Billinator wrote:
(...)Deathwatch Chapter (...) I've done my homework

Clearly you haven't if you think the Deathwatch is a chapter - they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos and drawn from all of the other chapters.

3) Mêleé weapons, in the other hand (pun intended) is harder to determine. At first, I was sold on Power Swords. But frankly, that -3 AP doesn't get you far. The PA actually performs slightly better than the PS Double Lightning Claws, however... Hoo boy, do they rip through anything, GEQ and MEQ alike (just not vehicles). And with the re-rolls on to wound. Ouch! Lastly, there's S8 weapons. And while both Thunder Hammers and Power Fists performs almost identical, the Heavy Thunder Hammer has the greatest potential (damage wise). It's still a hefty price though, and can only be wielded by "Vanilla Vets" (eg. No 3x attacks).

The Thunderhammer is a much better weapon than Power Fists since it's a reliable 3 damage flat. While they're identical on a 1-wound target model, the Hammer outperforms the Fist vastly on 2-wound and 3-wound models.
The Power sword isn't that great because it's "budget" goes fully into AP, leaving you with a S4 weapon that ignores most armours, but falls flat versus T5+, Sv5+ or worse, any kind of invuln. Axes and mauls / lances are the way to go if you don't want to pay for a hammer or a pair of lightning claws.
Heavy Thunder Hammers are insanely expensive and (I haven't done the math) won't do all that much more damage. It surely wouldn't outperform two Thunder Hammers, which is how much it almost costs. And you lose your ranged weapon / stormshield option, too.

So any input you can add is strongly appreciated. Is there some areas that I've missed? Am I spot on in others?

Just make sure you fully understand that you're choosing an army of elitist glass cannons. It takes literally the same effort to remove a Kill Team as it does to remove a plain old Tactical Squad unless you grab storm shields or add a Terminator.
Two veterans with Frag Cannons cost more than an entire MSU Tactical Squad fully kitted out. It's one of the reasons why a Terminator isn't all that bad in a KT: He brings two wounds with a 2+/5++ for as low as 53 points, and that includes a Heavy Flamer and a Power Sword already. 2 Veterans with 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Power Sword and a Boltgun are 59 points, and they only have 3+ saves.

I would suggest to start slowly and, as said before, wait for the codex to drop since there might be things that change the way units are played.

Start with what you like, what you find the coolest, and paint those. A single start collecting box will give you plenty of weapons to outfit a lot more than just the 10 veterans in there, and a single blackstar to get them around sounds good too...

Our dudes get expensive very fast, so even with ten dudes, a dread, captain Artemis and a blackstar you're already up to 800 points or so even before you start outfitting the veterans, so it's plenty enough for a few small games, see how they play out, and you can get a feel for what payload you like...

I have a stupid soft spot for the big thunder hammers myself, they are way too expensive for what they do, but they look so stupid cool that I have five in my army...

Hoodwink wrote:

I would assume Primaris will get special rules in the upcoming codex, but right now they are worse than every other SM faction since they don't benefit from the Deathwatch tactics.

Hellblasters are the only option that might be best in DW simply because you can have a Captain with a Jump Pack drop in and Beacon them in range to deliver them.

Right now my Kill Teams fully kitted out are generally a Sword on the Sergeant, 2 Stom Shield and 2 Frag Cannons, but I'll regularly replace 2-3 of those with generic Vets with bolters. A unit of Stalker bolters can generally hang back with a Watch Master and contribute pretty well too while buffing some lascannons on things like Dreadnaughts and Razorbacks.

Hello Billinator, I commend you for choosing to try out an army that currently is in an underwhelming state. I too have chosen Deathwatch as my army despite this due to previously running a Deathwatch RPG, as well as the fact I like being able to field marines from all the chapters. Here are a few thoughts:

4) You are correct about vanguards in a kill team. The ability to fall back and still shoot is just too useful to pass up, especially when you consider frag cannons, so at least one should be in every kill team. However, bikers are really only useful if you plan on utilizing the teleport homer functionality. The ability to charge after falling back that they provide to the kill team is just not that useful considering how quickly a kill team can die if it willingly enters melee. It can be useful for finishing up a unit after falling back and fragging the warp out of them with some cannons, but in my experience this so rarely happens that the biker is just not worth the points if you do not plan on making full use of the teleport options.

Also, Primaris Intercessors are okay as screen troops if you are unwilling to branch out into other armies for such. Their bolt rifles unfortunately do not benefit from the SIA of the Deathwatch, but they are 1 point cheaper than Deathwatch veterans and have 2 Wounds. That is what I used for such until I decided to add an Imperium detachment headed by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor including some Skitarri for cheap screening forces to fight alongside my Deathwatch.

 ikeulhu wrote:


5) At least one Terminator is nice in a kill team because he gives everyone in the unit a 5++ save thanks to the FAQ (https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_index_imperium_1_en.pdf). This can help your glassy kill teams survive a little longer if you are up against opponents with good AP weapons.

huh? I'm combing through the FAQ and cannot find that... Can you enlighten me?

 ChaosDad wrote:

huh? I'm combing through the FAQ and cannot find that... Can you enlighten me?

Top right of page 4 in the FAQ. Notice it says "models"

Whoops never mind that. That is just for the Terminator units. They must have FAQ'd it because the original data sheet just listed Terminators, but the models in the unit are named Deathwatch Terminators or Deathwatch Terminator Sergeant. I did not catch that it was not part of the kill team sheet the first time I read it. Too bad, that would have made Deathwatch terminators semi useful instead of just being over costed versions of regular terminators, and actually worth putting in a kill team. Also makes some kind of sense, as I can envision the other members of the kill team hunkering behind the Terminator to benefit from his Crux. Oh well...

Okay, I'll try to answer as many people as possible. But feel free to grab a potato, while you read the long post

nekooni wrote:
Clearly you haven't if you think the Deathwatch is a chapter - they're the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos and drawn from all of the other chapters.

The Thunderhammer is a much better weapon than Power Fists since it's a reliable 3 damage flat. While they're identical on a 1-wound target model, the Hammer outperforms the Fist vastly on 2-wound and 3-wound models.
The Power sword isn't that great because it's "budget" goes fully into AP, leaving you with a S4 weapon that ignores most armours, but falls flat versus T5+, Sv5+ or worse, any kind of invuln. Axes and mauls / lances are the way to go if you don't want to pay for a hammer or a pair of lightning claws.
Heavy Thunder Hammers are insanely expensive and (I haven't done the math) won't do all that much more damage. It surely wouldn't outperform two Thunder Hammers, which is how much it almost costs. And you lose your ranged weapon / stormshield option, too.

Just make sure you fully understand that you're choosing an army of elitist glass cannons. It takes literally the same effort to remove a Kill Team as it does to remove a plain old Tactical Squad unless you grab storm shields or add a Terminator.
Two veterans with Frag Cannons cost more than an entire MSU Tactical Squad fully kitted out. It's one of the reasons why a Terminator isn't all that bad in a KT: He brings two wounds with a 2+/5++ for as low as 53 points, and that includes a Heavy Flamer and a Power Sword already. 2 Veterans with 1 Heavy Flamer, 1 Power Sword and a Boltgun are 59 points, and they only have 3+ saves.

First point, you're right. I haven't read up on the lore behind them yet. So I gotta take your word for it.

Second point, you're right that the TH is a better weapon, overall. It's 4 more points than the PF, so it's definitely worth considering. But exactly how to equip the team as a whole is still rather lost on me - at least outside of Frag Cannon heavies.

Third point, I think it depends. If you take the Termie for protection, it'll still be outshined by 2 Vets with Shields (which I should have been clear about). Being glass cannony, the Kill Teams needs protection. My initial thought was Assault Termies with Hammers and Shields, and then use it as a sponge. But going over the numbers, it's 53 points for the Assault Termi, and 24 points per Vet with Shield. And if you're going to use the Terminator as a damage sponge, it's not going to pass on its special rules anyway. The 5++ with be lost with it.
- Another consideration for the above mentioned is WHAT kind of Kill Team you take it with. We could give a Frag Cannon Team an Assault Termie for protection. But in that case, it won't be able to shoot at anything. Alternatively, the Shield Vet would still have his Boltgun with special ammo, and be able to support the Frag Cannons.

ChaosDad wrote:I would suggest to start slowly and, as said before, wait for the codex to drop since there might be things that change the way units are played.

Start with what you like, what you find the coolest, and paint those. A single start collecting box will give you plenty of weapons to outfit a lot more than just the 10 veterans in there, and a single blackstar to get them around sounds good too...

Our dudes get expensive very fast, so even with ten dudes, a dread, captain Artemis and a blackstar you're already up to 800 points or so even before you start outfitting the veterans, so it's plenty enough for a few small games, see how they play out, and you can get a feel for what payload you like...

I have a stupid soft spot for the big thunder hammers myself, they are way too expensive for what they do, but they look so stupid cool that I have five in my army...

Well, the thing is that I'm ordering overseas, so the postage fee is a lot more expensive than usual. So I'd be better off ordering everything in bulk.

Besides, I'm well versed in the tabletop game. I've played both Tyranids and Eldar before. So I'm not that concerned about learning the game. I'm more concerned about the units that I've chosen, and getting some input from Deathwatch players, that knows what works - and what doesn't.

And yeah. The Heavy Hammers are AWESOME. Even performance wise, they're capable of downing the biggest Tanks and creatures out there. I'm just concerned about the points price

LunarSol wrote:

Hoodwink wrote:

I would assume Primaris will get special rules in the upcoming codex, but right now they are worse than every other SM faction since they don't benefit from the Deathwatch tactics.

Hellblasters are the only option that might be best in DW simply because you can have a Captain with a Jump Pack drop in and Beacon them in range to deliver them.

Right now my Kill Teams fully kitted out are generally a Sword on the Sergeant, 2 Stom Shield and 2 Frag Cannons, but I'll regularly replace 2-3 of those with generic Vets with bolters. A unit of Stalker bolters can generally hang back with a Watch Master and contribute pretty well too while buffing some lascannons on things like Dreadnaughts and Razorbacks.

You and I think alike. I thought the exact same thing.

The only question is just how many Frag Cannon teams you need. That weapon is capable of melting just about anything, short of a T8, Sv 2+ LR.

Furthermore, I don't know if I should split the army into four teams - two with Frag Cannons, and two with melee equipment (perhaps some THs, and some Dual LCs for the Infantry?).

ikeulhu wrote:Hello Billinator, I commend you for choosing to try out an army that currently is in an underwhelming state. I too have chosen Deathwatch as my army despite this due to previously running a Deathwatch RPG, as well as the fact I like being able to field marines from all the chapters. Here are a few thoughts concerning some of your points:

4) You are correct about vanguards in a kill team. The ability to fall back and still shoot is just too useful to pass up, especially when you consider frag cannons, so at least one should be in every kill team. However, bikers are really only useful if you plan on utilizing the teleport homer functionality. The ability to charge after falling back that they provide to the kill team is just not that useful considering how quickly a kill team can die if it willingly enters melee. It can be useful for finishing up a unit after falling back and fragging the warp out of them with some cannons, but in my experience this so rarely happens that the biker is just not worth the points if you do not plan on making full use of the teleport options.

5) At least one Terminator is nice in a kill team because he gives everyone in the unit a 5++ save thanks to the FAQ (https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_index_imperium_1_en.pdf). This can help your glassy kill teams survive a little longer if you are up against opponents with good AP weapons.

Also, Primaris Intercessors are okay as screen troops if you are unwilling to branch out into other armies for such. Their bolt rifles unfortunately do not benefit from the SIA of the Deathwatch, but they are 1 point cheaper than Deathwatch veterans and have 2 Wounds. That is what I used for such until I decided to add an Imperium detachment headed by an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor including some Skitarri for cheap screening forces to fight alongside my Deathwatch.

Thank you very much, Brother Ikeulhu.

As I've stated previously, I'm not so interested in the biggest, baddest army out there. I'm in it for the feel of the army. And it's kind if Ironic going from only-Xenos to the army that's supposed to be the BANE of their existence

Anyway, as I wrote earlier, I'm not so concerned about the survivability of the dudes. Vets with Shields and (free) Boltguns is more than enough, and grant the team the same survivability as the Terminator does - but at a lower cost. All you lose out on is the +1 to your normal save (which would most likely be reduced by most weapons anyway). So that's that.

Branching out into other armies sounds... Expensive to be honest. I'm mainly a Xenos player, so I have basically NO models from compatible armies to draw from. So unless the Deathwatch decides to join the Greater Good (and that WILL happen - mark my words!), I'm pretty short on models in that department. Besides, I'd rather keep it BLACK and SILVER for now

Don't forget, for regular Vets that you want to keep cheap as possible, you can equip them with both bolters and chain swords. A lot of people get confused on that because of the wording in the Index.

I've run squads with 4 frag cannons. They can ruin the day of anyone charging you with so many auto hits.

Generally though, I find quantity is key. I like 7 normal guys with bolter/chain sword, black shield with bolter/ chain sword, sergeant with bolter/fist, and terminator with storm shield.

The terminator will tank high strength, low ap weapons and every else wounds on a 2+ at range.

Hoodwink wrote:Don't forget, for regular Vets that you want to keep cheap as possible, you can equip them with both bolters and chain swords. A lot of people get confused on that because of the wording in the Index.

Well of course. But as I've stated before, it's not so much a question of saving points. It's more a question of utilizing your weapon options to the fullest.

Let me explain;
No matter how you outfit your guys, you'll always be paying 19 points for the model itself. That model comes with a standard TAC profile, with the exception of an additional attack and the Special Issue Ammunition. While keeping it simple, and giving them the Boltgun and the Chainsword to keep the cost down, you don't really gain that much from the Chainsword (all it really does is add an additional attack), compared to a SS Vet with a Boltgun (which adds to the overall survivability of the squad).

I'd much rather utilize each Veterans potential by giving the Vanilla Vets SSes, the Black Shields and Sergeants (a) melee weapon(s) (Power Axes (general), Dual Lightning Claws (4 attacks on Sgt/BS) or Thunder Hammers (Multi wounds)).

cuda1179 wrote:I've run squads with 4 frag cannons. They can ruin the day of anyone charging you with so many auto hits.

Generally though, I find quantity is key. I like 7 normal guys with bolter/chain sword, black shield with bolter/ chain sword, sergeant with bolter/fist, and terminator with storm shield.

The terminator will tank high strength, low ap weapons and every else wounds on a 2+ at range.

I'm still not sold on the Termies. They're basically just vanilla Terminators with a higher price tag. If they'd had an extra attack, I might've considered them. But until they can actually offer us something that the regular Vets cannot offer at a cheaper cost, I'd leave them at that.

And regarding the Chainswords, I'd still advocate for adding 4-5 extra points for something more useful than +1 attacks to an already lackluster profile.

friend of mine runs DW, have to say having faced them I'm not overly impressed - yes they get some nice toys (that Blackstar for example), but overall they are a bit too specialised.

Its like trying to drop a full army of SAS, they are good at what they do, but there just are seldom enough of them and they lack the robustness to survive.

That aside, they will get a codex and they are wonderfully colourful with the background, just be prepared to lose a fair few games until the missions land just right for you.

Frag Cannons can be very good, they can also be terrible, in both cases they are expensive, just a bit too variable really - my Orks & Tyranids are not really scared of them any more - the ammo option that translates to flamers is more dangerous.


Suggest considering a cheap IG unit to run alongside, these guys provide your home objective sitters cheaply so you don't end up with five expensive DW to hold an objective.

go for them, they are a wonderful army, but I think they do better in smaller games or as part of a larger force in something like APOC where they can actually work as special forces.

If your group likes narratives and custom scenarios though they should be a lot of fun

There is something that Terminators do. They will let your squads auto-pass moral checks. Since your squads are so expensive, saving one or two of them from being moral casualties can make up the cost of taking a terminator.

 cuda1179 wrote:
There is something that Terminators do. They will let your squads auto-pass moral checks. Since your squads are so expensive, saving one or two of them from being moral casualties can make up the cost of taking a terminator.

Take a five-man Kill Team and you physically cannot lose any models unless you lose three in a turn, roll a 6, and roll another 6 for ATSKNF. Or lose 4, then the last guy runs if you roll a 5+ and another 5+ (1/9 chance). Morale is fundamentally a non-issue for the Deathwatch unless you're taking much larger squads than you should be.

I decided to run mine MSU but expensive. For 2k points I run a detachement of one WatchMaster and one captain . 3 squads of veteran with two squads of combiplasma who muck around with the captain and 1 full of stalkers. 3 razorback (2 assault and 1 twin las) . My other detachement I run with this is space marine detachement of two techmarine with conversion beamer amnd as many dreadnaught I can fit. I run that detachement because dreads do not benefit from special munitions and it cover the real lack of long range antitank . The salamander CT for the reroll is nice and mean my dreads seldom miss or fail to wound.

The main issue I've run into is just that a Battalion tends to be more than I want to spend on them, but there's not really any great ways to put an army that is almost exclusively Troops on the table. The blackstar is cool, but as the only real means of transport it gets expensive really quick. I often throw 2 squads and Artemis in it, but that still leaves me in need of a 3rd squad that's.... uninspired to say the least. It's also kind of weird in its effectiveness; it flies in and at BS 4+ isn't quite as effective as it should be, then needs to survive to deliver its payload where its not quite durable enough to pull it off (particularly without defense against auto hitting or psychic damage).

It's just kind of an army that gets taxed to death, but when it gets a chance to strike its pretty glorious. Frag Cannons are pretty hilarious and if they survive to overwatch can do horrific damage. The Solid Shell needs a bit of a buff (Damage 3 at half range would do it), but more than anything the army just needs to be cheaper, needs a way to efficiently deliver mixed kill teams, and really, really needs its rerolls back.