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2018/02/15 21:53:05
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Malicious Mutant Scum
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Holla, it's me back with probably another obvious question.
Is this a thing:
Daemon prince = 5++
+ Impossible robe = 4++
+ warp surge(max 3++) = 3++
+ephemeral form = 2++ (dunno why, saw someone use it saying it's after warp surge)
Or:
Daemon prince = 5++
+ Impossible robe = 4++
+ warp surge(max 3++) = 3++
+ephemeral form = still 3++ (nice try boyo)
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4000
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2018/02/15 22:41:27
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Horrific Hive Tyrant
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Warp Surge is max 3++
That means you can't stack it with anything past that.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/15 22:43:42
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2018/02/15 23:14:26
Subject: Re:Daemons uber save
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Dakka Veteran
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OP is almost correct. Ephemeral form = "Add 1 to any invulnerable saving throws made for this unit". Different then improving the invulnerable save like Warp Surge.
So your invulnerable save is a 3+ with a +1 on the roll. So a roll of 1 becomes a 2, a roll of 2 becomes a 3 (and passes), etc.
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2018/02/15 23:58:09
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Again the problem with 8th is ambiguity, there is no rule on the order of application of modifiers
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To many unpainted models to count. |
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2018/02/16 01:25:45
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Dakka Veteran
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Backspacehacker wrote:Again the problem with 8th is ambiguity, there is no rule on the order of application of modifiers
Yes there is. Check the header "Modifying Characteristics" in the BRB / Battle Primer ( pg 13 on battle primer)
But order doesn't matter any way in this situation, warp surge puts an additional restriction on invulnerable saves which is "to a maximum of 3+". Even if you improve the invulnerable from other sources you still have this restriction which you don't have permissions to ignore.
An important note about Ephemeral form is that it doesn't improve the invulnerable save, rather it improves the roll. It is an important distinction in this situation as the model will have a 3+ invulnerable save, but with a +1 to their saving roll. Effectively making rolls of 2's turn in to 3's which then pass the invulnerable save.
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2018/02/16 04:45:40
Subject: Re:Daemons uber save
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Just remember though, a roll of a 1 always fails.
But yes. Empirical form is a +1 to invulnerable saving throw, not a modifier of the invulnerable itself. Hense the Impossible robe + warp surge will give you a 3++, but the Empirical form gives you a +1 modifier to the saving roll. Hense you still need to roll a 3+ on the save, but it is with a +1.
So technically this is a 3++ with a +1 to the saving throw, hence a 2 after modifiers becomes a 3
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 04:46:05
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2018/02/16 13:04:08
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Also, keep in mind, each and every single time that GW has EVER had to answer an FAQ question as to whether you can combine "add 1 to the roll" with "improves the characteristic by 1", GW has always taken the stance that the two are SYNONYMOUS.
That is, adding 1 to your roll for Invulnerable Saves, and improving your Invulnerable Save by 1, are the same thing (even if, RAW, they are not). As such, I would STRONGLY recommend you leave the maximum as being 3+ Inv, as if GW goes over this with an FAQ, they will almost certainly side with "nope, the max is still 3+".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 13:04:30
Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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2018/02/16 13:37:34
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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I don't see the problem here and feel like the way the OP is asking the question is what makes it seem like an order of operations problem. But it's not.
Warp Surge takes the invulnerable save to 3+. Ephemeral Form adds +1 to the saving throw.
A player rolls a 2. That 2 is a 3, thus the save is made. A player subsequently rolls a 1. That 1 is a 2, thus the save is failed. All requirements satisfied.
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2018/02/16 21:50:43
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Yarium wrote:Also, keep in mind, each and every single time that GW has EVER had to answer an FAQ question as to whether you can combine "add 1 to the roll" with "improves the characteristic by 1", GW has always taken the stance that the two are SYNONYMOUS.
That is, adding 1 to your roll for Invulnerable Saves, and improving your Invulnerable Save by 1, are the same thing (even if, RAW, they are not). As such, I would STRONGLY recommend you leave the maximum as being 3+ Inv, as if GW goes over this with an FAQ, they will almost certainly side with "nope, the max is still 3+".
So if I have Sergeant Telion (4+ save) in cover (+2 to his save rolls), he starts taking d3 damage from Grav weaponry?
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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2018/02/16 22:32:05
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Been Around the Block
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RAW, I guess you can have a 2++ save but as others have said, if GW ever FAQs this it will be max 3++. This is because RAI, the max invuln they seem to want to give out is a 3++. A lot of Tzeentch invuln stuff across both Daemons and Chaos Space Marines do say "max of 3++". The only actually instance of a 2++ save I can think of is the shadowfield for Archons and that even has a stipulation to not be rerolled.
Short version: GW really doesn't want the invulns of 7th back.
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2018/02/17 15:48:36
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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JNAProductions wrote: Yarium wrote:Also, keep in mind, each and every single time that GW has EVER had to answer an FAQ question as to whether you can combine "add 1 to the roll" with "improves the characteristic by 1", GW has always taken the stance that the two are SYNONYMOUS.
That is, adding 1 to your roll for Invulnerable Saves, and improving your Invulnerable Save by 1, are the same thing (even if, RAW, they are not). As such, I would STRONGLY recommend you leave the maximum as being 3+ Inv, as if GW goes over this with an FAQ, they will almost certainly side with "nope, the max is still 3+".
So if I have Sergeant Telion (4+ save) in cover (+2 to his save rolls), he starts taking d3 damage from Grav weaponry?
No. His Save characteristic is 4+, and that's what the Grav weapon works off, not what modifiers you have to the roll.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/02/17 18:44:18
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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Azoqu wrote:Short version: GW really doesn't want the invulns of 7th back.
And the community too!
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AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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2018/02/17 21:12:26
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Regular Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote: JNAProductions wrote: Yarium wrote:Also, keep in mind, each and every single time that GW has EVER had to answer an FAQ question as to whether you can combine "add 1 to the roll" with "improves the characteristic by 1", GW has always taken the stance that the two are SYNONYMOUS.
That is, adding 1 to your roll for Invulnerable Saves, and improving your Invulnerable Save by 1, are the same thing (even if, RAW, they are not). As such, I would STRONGLY recommend you leave the maximum as being 3+ Inv, as if GW goes over this with an FAQ, they will almost certainly side with "nope, the max is still 3+".
So if I have Sergeant Telion (4+ save) in cover (+2 to his save rolls), he starts taking d3 damage from Grav weaponry?
No. His Save characteristic is 4+, and that's what the Grav weapon works off, not what modifiers you have to the roll.
Yeah I have to say I don't know where Yarium got his info from, because I've never heard it myself, but I could be wrong. Statsline and modifiers are two different things entirely. And anyway, it's not like it would be the first 2+ invul save in the game either, imperials can get it from at least 2 differents ways without the "cannot be rerolled" clause.
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2018/02/23 17:39:45
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Dakka Veteran
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I’m going with it’s a three plus period. Not a 2. What imperial
Units have a 2 plus re-rollable?
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In a dog eat dog be a cat. |
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2018/02/23 21:42:34
Subject: Re:Daemons uber save
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The only thing i can think of is grey knights with stratagem and sanctuary
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2018/02/25 01:14:39
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Dakka Veteran
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Lungpickle wrote:I’m going with it’s a three plus period. Not a 2. What imperial
Units have a 2 plus re-rollable?
Not re-rollable, but Bullgryns with Bruteshields can easily get a 2++.
Edit: Vs shooting that is.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/25 01:14:51
5500 pts
6500 pts
7000 pts
9000 pts
13.000 pts
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2018/02/25 02:21:27
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Norn Queen
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And this is why mortal wounds are necessary.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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2018/02/25 02:32:53
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider
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I concur, but a good chunk of armies have little or no access to the amount of mortal wounds needed to deal with that, or mortal wounds in the first place.
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P'tah Dynasty
Iron Warriors
Dark Eldar
" It is always good to remember WHY we are in this hobby, and often times it is because of the PEOPLE we share our time with" |
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2018/02/25 04:36:00
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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In a world where toughness is not how good save you have but how cheap you are per wound...No.
Those still are not king of attrition in the game. Bohoo. 2++ isn't problem anyway. Especially on selected units. IT was 2++ rerollable that was issue. Especially if it could be given freely to whatever you want.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2018/02/25 04:39:28
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Norn Queen
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tneva82 wrote:
In a world where toughness is not how good save you have but how cheap you are per wound...No.
Those still are not king of attrition in the game. Bohoo. 2++ isn't problem anyway. Especially on selected units. IT was 2++ rerollable that was issue. Especially if it could be given freely to whatever you want.
A 2++ isn't a big issue on a unit that has only 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 wounds.
But a 2++ on a 10 wound model is a fething nightmare.
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These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
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2018/02/25 08:25:52
Subject: Daemons uber save
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Agreed. Let them stack as much as they like, then Smite the overpriced, overpowered thing away. The Great Leveller!
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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