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I just stumbled upon the infuriating interaction between the Ynnari nerf details in the most recent errata and how relics and warlord traits work. Quickly for anyone who isn't up to date. If you include a Ynnari HQ in your army, that HQ must be the warlord, or else you can't actually include any asuryani units with a ynnari keyword. By having a Ynnari warlord you are barred from a free relic in the craftworlds book, which requires the warlord be craftworlds; and you don't get to use any of the unique and often useful warlord traits, you're left using the generic ones from the BRB. I, like most people only run a small detachment of Ynnari for Yvraine post nerf, the bulk of my force are craftworld detachments. I understand that soulburst was broken and needed to be nerfed, it was. But what is the rationale behind the required warlord rule, thus severely hurting the bulk of my force by losing out on a relevant warlord trait (biel-tan) and relevant relic (wings), unless I want to pony up a CP for it? Has anyone every discovered an explanation for this ridiculous "must be the warlord" rule?

It was because of the very reason you stated everyone took Ynnari. Instead of being a moderate or most units being Ynnari, people were instead using the soup method and just took the bare minimum Ynnari to benefit from it's very powerful rules, but then took an army that had an extended list of abilities and such (like Ynnari with majority Craftworlds). This didn't make sense from a design point because Ynnari were supposed to represent it's own faction, not just be a buff side army for a craftworld or Drukhari list. Hence the nerf.

It's basically there to tell you, if you want to build Ynnari, then you forfeit making an army with a leadership from the craftworlds or the Drukhari, because you made the choice to go with this faction.


Also, this should of been posted in YMDC instead of Proposed rules, because this feels more like a question to an FAQ rather then a proposed rule

It still feels like a very specifically tailored punishment, the warlord rule. If I play a mostly cadian list, with a small contingent of ultramarines, I'm not punished that way. If I play mostly craftworlds with a small contingent of harlies I'm not punished that way. It's like they're saying, if you want to bring any of this stuff along, you need to bring a lot of it, which goes against the core game design, which allows larger base armies to "ally" in smaller contingents of like-minded forces. Like an AM army bringing along a small unit of astartes.

I suspect its a half-baked fluff idea impacting on the rules, a fair proportion of both CWE and Drukhari don't trust or believe Yvaine's whole salvation shtick so it sort of makes sense

I suspect if/when a Ynnari codex surfaces Warlord traits, relics etc will address that

That was my thinking as well, fluff wise. But a good writer can come up with an equally plausible narrative for the reverse scenario. For instance, the ynnari see a strategic advantage to helping a larger force of eldar, either to achieve a strategic objective, or even win over more hearts and minds. Thus a smaller band of ynnari comes to the aid of a larger eldar force, etc. I think both narratives work well.

Better than SM strats!

Strategy of the Inane
Cost: 1CP
Effect:. Ultramarines only, no successor noobs. Look at your army, pick two units you do not own yet. Those are the units you need for this stratagem. Roll a dice, on a 1+ go buy those units, gain 1 CP.

I fail to see what makes sense.
You thematically want your army to be composed of Eldar loyal to the god of the dead, lead by the Yinarri, but you're objecting to your Warlord being from that faction?
Like. Wut?
You still get Craftworld stratagems. You can _Still_ get Craftworld relics.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I fail to see what makes sense.
You thematically want your army to be composed of Eldar loyal to the god of the dead, lead by the Yinarri, but you're objecting to your Warlord being from that faction?
Like. Wut?
You still get Craftworld stratagems. You can _Still_ get Craftworld relics.

Yeah you're completely missing the point. It's about who is designated warlord and what warlord traits you have access to (CP are precious as well and a free relic is nothing to scoff at). If I'm playing a majority craftworld force, with a small contingent of ynnari as an ally, then no, I do not "thematically want your army to be composed of Eldar loyal to the god of the dead, lead by the Yinarri." That was just a strange assumption on your part, I definitely don't want that lol. I want a Craftworld Eldar force in which Yvraine and a few Ynnari loyalists have come to lend some aid.

the only problem however, is that you want soulburst.

Which leads into the original problem of people making a small detachment of ynnari to benefit from soulburst. Hense the nerf.

"You cannot have your cake and eat it too"

mchammadad wrote:
the only problem however, is that you want soulburst.

Which leads into the original problem of people making a small detachment of ynnari to benefit from soulburst. Hense the nerf.

"You cannot have your cake and eat it too"

Having our cake and eating it too was pre-nerf Ynnari, with all the units soulbursting all over the place. They were nerfed, hard, don't arbitrarily also take away useful warlord traits and relics.

I'm fine with Ynnari not unlocking craftworlder or drukhari relics. Those, in my eyes, are rewards for players taking a warlord from those specific factions. What is weird to me is that you have to include one of 3 special characters to ever play a ynnari force.

Having the option to just call a given detachment ynnari and swap out their craftworld/kabal keywords for <Ynnari> would be nice. Then, you could include some ynnari relics (like we used to have) and give ynnari armies one free relic as per normal.

They did it to stop people from taking a small detachment of one of those three (like a patrol) and then having the rest of the army something else (In this example craftworlds).

This gave the entire army access to soulburst (As anyone could be counted as both Ynnari and their own faction) and get access to the army traits/relics/Warlord traits/ Stratagems from the other codex (Craftworld traits/ warlord traits/Relics/Stratagems)

The idea of making one of those three your warlord as a requirement, made it do that you have to give up at least two things a mono codex of the same build had access to, in this scenario Warlord traits and free Relic. However you still have access to traits and stratagems, which are still adding on the power of soulburst. And since some traits synergize with soulburst too well. You still have armies that still do this method.

Considering the fact they should of made it that Ynnari replaced the CRAFTWORLD or KABAL keywords from aeldari units, this would of made the army actually balanced, as you would be giving up those traits and stratagems for those units for access to soulburst, a powerful ability in it's own right. Even when it is nerfed

(If people are gonna rant at me saying that soulburst is not that strong. Answer me this. How much would you pay for a 0 CP extra shooting/Melee/Movement phase? Cause that is what soulburst gives you, for free. You get those three things once per turn for free. When other armies are paying 2-3CP for the same things on a stratagem)

mchammadad wrote:

(If people are gonna rant at me saying that soulburst is not that strong. Answer me this. How much would you pay for a 0 CP extra shooting/Melee/Movement phase? Cause that is what soulburst gives you, for free. You get those three things once per turn for free. When other armies are paying 2-3CP for the same things on a stratagem)

Eh. You're omitting some important information there. Sure, you get a "0 CP stratagem," but your'e giving up battle focus, rising crescendo, and power from pain for them, all of which are pretty effective in their own right and can be used by your entire army at once. Soul bursts for certain units and in the right situations can be very nice, but they're kind of situational right now. Soulbursting with a squad of fire dragons against a good target for them (basically anything that isn't a cheap one wound model) is great, but it requires that I get them within 7"of the target I want to kill to trigger the soulburst and also within 7" of the second target I want to send them after. Ditto any other shooting unit.

Melee units don't mind being close and can usually get some benefit out of moving, charging, or fighting twice, but aeldari don't have a ton of especially reliable melee units. This is why ynnari melee units tend to be shining spears (one of our few reliable melee killers who get more out of a movement soul burst to boot.)

Word of the Phoenix lets you bypass these limitations once per turn with a successful psychic test, but strength from death still has some significant limitations without it.

So yeah. Soul Bursting is nice, but there are definitely times that you'd rather have FNP and rerolling charges for your dark eldar or rising crescendo for your harlies. I'm curious, mchammadad. Have you tried out ynnari this edition, and if so, did you use reapers/spears, or did you manage to find a use for ynnari dire avengers and scourges?

Very well reasoned response Wyldhunt.

Wyldhunt wrote:

mchammadad wrote:

(If people are gonna rant at me saying that soulburst is not that strong. Answer me this. How much would you pay for a 0 CP extra shooting/Melee/Movement phase? Cause that is what soulburst gives you, for free. You get those three things once per turn for free. When other armies are paying 2-3CP for the same things on a stratagem)

Eh. You're omitting some important information there. Sure, you get a "0 CP stratagem," but your'e giving up battle focus, rising crescendo, and power from pain for them, all of which are pretty effective in their own right and can be used by your entire army at once. Soul bursts for certain units and in the right situations can be very nice, but they're kind of situational right now. Soulbursting with a squad of fire dragons against a good target for them (basically anything that isn't a cheap one wound model) is great, but it requires that I get them within 7"of the target I want to kill to trigger the soulburst and also within 7" of the second target I want to send them after. Ditto any other shooting unit.

Melee units don't mind being close and can usually get some benefit out of moving, charging, or fighting twice, but aeldari don't have a ton of especially reliable melee units. This is why ynnari melee units tend to be shining spears (one of our few reliable melee killers who get more out of a movement soul burst to boot.)

Word of the Phoenix lets you bypass these limitations once per turn with a successful psychic test, but strength from death still has some significant limitations without it.

So yeah. Soul Bursting is nice, but there are definitely times that you'd rather have FNP and rerolling charges for your dark eldar or rising crescendo for your harlies. I'm curious, mchammadad. Have you tried out ynnari this edition, and if so, did you use reapers/spears, or did you manage to find a use for ynnari dire avengers and scourges?

Is it not the case that you're losing those rules for _That Detachment_ only?
All your non Ynarri detachments still have access to their Craftworld traits, etc no problem. It's the one small Ynarri detachment that loses things in exchange for soulburst. If it were army wide, it wouldn't be so bad.

Strength from death is way stronger than you guys are giving it credit for. Go listen to talks with the top players from LVO. IT is essentially like getting 2+ extra CP every turn. The nerf by and large only effects taking a whole ynnari army, it is still super powerful as a detachment in a larger army.

So what you are saying is "I want this super powerful mechanic, and better warlord traits, and relics." Otherwise just run your army as craftworld and give up SFD on your small detachment of "ynnari"

Oh you don't want to do that because you need to give up your double shooting/double assaulting/double or triple moving." shenanigans? Sorry I don't feel bad that you have to pay a CP to get a relic, and get stock warlord traits. Ynnari are an index faction, plenty of those have no access to plenty of stuff ynnari get thanks to the eldar book.


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Also the argument that "well if you don't use the best units Soul burst isn't that strong/" is a disingenuous argument. IT is like arguing that guard isn't strong if you skip all their good units. OR the Rowboat isn't strong if you surround him with servitors.

All I'm saying is, no where else do we see this "this hq must be your warlord or you can't play with these guys."

There are no models that require you to use that warlord only rules. If it makes you feel better your warlord trait is a brb wl trait + unlocking soul burst. I'd take that trait every day and twice on Sunday. Or you can think of it as if this character is your warlord you gain 15 cp. then it is like plenty of cp generating warlords (Rowboat, Azreal) only way better. Your argument is akin to a Ravenguard player complaining that he cannot use the ultramarine warlord trait. We are talking about rules not models. So your argument is disingenuous, you can absolutely use all your models they just don't get the extra special rules. That could all change if ynnari get a book, but right now the limiting factor to it is requiring a ynnari warlord special character.

The warlord trait is a nuisance, to be sure, but my biggest source of stress comes from the lack of a free relic. I often use the wings of faolchu to save a considerable amount of points for a buffing HQ that needs mobility to keep up the unit they're meant to buff, a baseline farseer or autarch is much cheaper than the skyrunner variants. Eldar typically have 6-8 command points at the most, and with a slew of very useful, borderline necessary stratagems, command points are pure gold. Having to be taxed one right off the bat is frustrating.

If your response would be, well ynnari are busted good so get over it, well I think the best guard lists are pretty damn brutal and cheesy, and yet they face no obstacles in regard to warlord traits and command points (in fact guard often have 10-14 CP). Not to mention the imperium keyword is arguably much stronger than the aeldari one.

Ynnari will get relics when they get a codex. I haven't played much Ynnari in 8th, as I tend to prefer straight Craftworlds or Harlequins. However I am looking at putting together a 1500 point list for a tournament in April where I will be playing a 100% Ynnari detachment because the soup nonsense is just that. Having allies is one thing, but min maxing amongst several detachments is silly. The reason Yvraine (or the Visarch/Yncarne) has to be in charge is because they believe Ynnead is the key to Aeldari survival. This isn't the harlequins coming in and lending aid from time to time as they see fit. Ynnari are on a mission and they only focus on that. They won't be cowing to the leadership of others, hence why they won't serve another Warlord on the tabletop. Either accept it and play them that way or don't.

Yep, because even GW doesn't likely know what they'll do (if anything) with Ynnari. It may go no further than simply the three released characters, who knows. But if you're not Craftworlds, you're not getting those things - seems pretty simple.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

mchammadad wrote:

(If people are gonna rant at me saying that soulburst is not that strong. Answer me this. How much would you pay for a 0 CP extra shooting/Melee/Movement phase? Cause that is what soulburst gives you, for free. You get those three things once per turn for free. When other armies are paying 2-3CP for the same things on a stratagem)

Eh. You're omitting some important information there. Sure, you get a "0 CP stratagem," but your'e giving up battle focus, rising crescendo, and power from pain for them, all of which are pretty effective in their own right and can be used by your entire army at once. Soul bursts for certain units and in the right situations can be very nice, but they're kind of situational right now. Soulbursting with a squad of fire dragons against a good target for them (basically anything that isn't a cheap one wound model) is great, but it requires that I get them within 7"of the target I want to kill to trigger the soulburst and also within 7" of the second target I want to send them after. Ditto any other shooting unit.

Melee units don't mind being close and can usually get some benefit out of moving, charging, or fighting twice, but aeldari don't have a ton of especially reliable melee units. This is why ynnari melee units tend to be shining spears (one of our few reliable melee killers who get more out of a movement soul burst to boot.)

Word of the Phoenix lets you bypass these limitations once per turn with a successful psychic test, but strength from death still has some significant limitations without it.

So yeah. Soul Bursting is nice, but there are definitely times that you'd rather have FNP and rerolling charges for your dark eldar or rising crescendo for your harlies. I'm curious, mchammadad. Have you tried out ynnari this edition, and if so, did you use reapers/spears, or did you manage to find a use for ynnari dire avengers and scourges?

Is it not the case that you're losing those rules for _That Detachment_ only?
All your non Ynarri detachments still have access to their Craftworld traits, etc no problem. It's the one small Ynarri detachment that loses things in exchange for soulburst. If it were army wide, it wouldn't be so bad.

Fair enough. But at that point, we're starting to touch upon the point that ynnari are basically more effective in smaller numbers because Strength From Death isn't all that useful for a wide variety of units and because you're generally better off focusing on giving soul bursts to one or two units tops. Thus you take a unit of reapers to shoot an extra time, a unit of spears to stab an extra time, and any other ynnari models are kind of a tax. In other words, Strength From Death is kind of bad unless you're specifically going for a power combo, at which point it's too good. I think most people would be happier with it if we made the super combos less super and made the rule more generally useful for the rest of the ynnari force. Similar to how Acts of Faith on Celestine are terrifying, but Acts of Faith as a non-scaling mechanic for an entire sororitas army is meh.


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Breng77 wrote:

Also the argument that "well if you don't use the best units Soul burst isn't that strong/" is a disingenuous argument. IT is like arguing that guard isn't strong if you skip all their good units. OR the Rowboat isn't strong if you surround him with servitors.

I see your point, but not all games are tournament games, and not everyone plays optimized lists. Playing a fluffy, all-Ynnari army that doesn't capitalize on the couple of really good combos is a bit frustrating right now because Strength From Death is so meh in most situations. So while it's fair to point out that optimized lists will always be taking, er... optimized options, it's also fair to point out that Strength From Death is kind of meh on the majority of aeldari units. Any vehicles you take as ynnari miss out on craftworld traits. Any dark eldar you take are giving up FNP, rerolling charges, +1 on to-hit rolls, and fearless. Harlequins have a bit more trouble getting into melee (but have the potential to do more damage or charge again once they get there).

When I sit down to write a ynnari list, I often find that I'm giving up an uncomfortable number of other advantages to gain access to soul burst and end up making an aeldari list composed of several pure craftworld, drukhari, or harlequin detachments instead of including Ynnari at all. I can see where giving up a free relic and your good warlord traits to gain access to an iffy mechanic (soul burst) would be frustrating.

Though again, I don't necessarily think that we should get access to asuryani relics/traits; I'd rather we be allowed to take non-special character Ynnari warlords and then gain access to Ynnari-specific relics and traits. Surely Yvraine doesn't need to hold her lieutenants hands at every battle?

Yes, thank you for that acknowledgment. The original point was that the snowflake ynnari warlord rule was unjust. So you you want to play ynnari? Well you have to field one of these special characters, ok, no problem there, oh, and they have to be your warlord, wait, what? Even if I only take one small detachment? Yes, suck it. And please don't say, but the fluff... No where else is the fluff used to pigeon whole an army so much. Case in point, according to the fluff, Roboute Guilliman is just short of the emperor come back to life, maybe the greatest tactical genius ever. And yet, I can field him in an army right now in which a lowly commisar is his warlord, fluff my you know what lol!

And yes to the point about ynnari players being stuck between a rock and a hard place. First they nerf strength from death into the ground, essentially announcing to the world, you're only ever going to field these guys in a small group now. Then when people do the inevitable, everyone cries cheesy foul. What was were ynnari players to do? Well I guess I'll give up my awesome craftworld attributes, and battle focus, and good warlord traits, and free relic, and on top of all of that, not take some reapers and spears? Please. GW practically built the list themselves, don't yell at the people who simply followed the game designers lead. Heck they even dropped reapers points after nerfing ynnari, again, what did you think people were going to do?

 peteralmo wrote:
All I'm saying is, no where else do we see this "this hq must be your warlord or you can't play with these guys."

Nowhere else do you get a special detachment-wide rule for making a soup character your warlord, either.

 peteralmo wrote:
The warlord trait is a nuisance, to be sure, but my biggest source of stress comes from the lack of a free relic. I often use the wings of faolchu to save a considerable amount of points for a buffing HQ that needs mobility to keep up the unit they're meant to buff, a baseline farseer or autarch is much cheaper than the skyrunner variants. Eldar typically have 6-8 command points at the most, and with a slew of very useful, borderline necessary stratagems, command points are pure gold. Having to be taxed one right off the bat is frustrating.

If your response would be, well ynnari are busted good so get over it, well I think the best guard lists are pretty damn brutal and cheesy, and yet they face no obstacles in regard to warlord traits and command points (in fact guard often have 10-14 CP). Not to mention the imperium keyword is arguably much stronger than the aeldari one.

My argument would be if it bothers you don't play ynnari. Arguably Ynnari give eldar an additional 10-12 CP (soulburst value) on top of the 7-8 (you don't have 6 if you play ynnari unless you play pure ynnari) you already have. You don't need to burn through them anywhere near as fast as marines or chaos who have a bunch of 2 and 3 CP desirable stratagems.

Paying 1 CP to get a relic, when having ynnari grants you effectively 10 more seems like a bargain to me. As for keywords, you say imperium is stronger, but that might only be true now because only 1 aeldari faction has a codex, where as almost the entire imperium does, and at that most of those factions are worse than craftworld eldar or ynnari (index). Guard has a ton of CP but not that many great stratagems by comparison.

Breng77 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
The warlord trait is a nuisance, to be sure, but my biggest source of stress comes from the lack of a free relic. I often use the wings of faolchu to save a considerable amount of points for a buffing HQ that needs mobility to keep up the unit they're meant to buff, a baseline farseer or autarch is much cheaper than the skyrunner variants. Eldar typically have 6-8 command points at the most, and with a slew of very useful, borderline necessary stratagems, command points are pure gold. Having to be taxed one right off the bat is frustrating.

If your response would be, well ynnari are busted good so get over it, well I think the best guard lists are pretty damn brutal and cheesy, and yet they face no obstacles in regard to warlord traits and command points (in fact guard often have 10-14 CP). Not to mention the imperium keyword is arguably much stronger than the aeldari one.

My argument would be if it bothers you don't play ynnari. Arguably Ynnari give eldar an additional 10-12 CP (soulburst value) on top of the 7-8 (you don't have 6 if you play ynnari unless you play pure ynnari) you already have. You don't need to burn through them anywhere near as fast as marines or chaos who have a bunch of 2 and 3 CP desirable stratagems.

Paying 1 CP to get a relic, when having ynnari grants you effectively 10 more seems like a bargain to me. As for keywords, you say imperium is stronger, but that might only be true now because only 1 aeldari faction has a codex, where as almost the entire imperium does, and at that most of those factions are worse than craftworld eldar or ynnari (index). Guard has a ton of CP but not that many great stratagems by comparison.

I agree with most of this. Although I think the "you get x extra cp from soulburst" has become a classic fish story, the number keeps getting bigger and bigger. "The heavily nerfed soulburst gives you like 50 billion extra cp's!" I don't know where this math is coming from honestly. Yvraine lets one unit shoot an extra around each turn, are you counting that as 2 free cp x 5 rounds or something? Do you forget that units like leman russ and fire prisms just shoot twice for free? Not sure how it is clearly "worth" 2 cp, because of the slaanesh stratagem?

Wyldhunt wrote:



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Breng77 wrote:

Also the argument that "well if you don't use the best units Soul burst isn't that strong/" is a disingenuous argument. IT is like arguing that guard isn't strong if you skip all their good units. OR the Rowboat isn't strong if you surround him with servitors.

I see your point, but not all games are tournament games, and not everyone plays optimized lists. Playing a fluffy, all-Ynnari army that doesn't capitalize on the couple of really good combos is a bit frustrating right now because Strength From Death is so meh in most situations. So while it's fair to point out that optimized lists will always be taking, er... optimized options, it's also fair to point out that Strength From Death is kind of meh on the majority of aeldari units. Any vehicles you take as ynnari miss out on craftworld traits. Any dark eldar you take are giving up FNP, rerolling charges, +1 on to-hit rolls, and fearless. Harlequins have a bit more trouble getting into melee (but have the potential to do more damage or charge again once they get there).

When I sit down to write a ynnari list, I often find that I'm giving up an uncomfortable number of other advantages to gain access to soul burst and end up making an aeldari list composed of several pure craftworld, drukhari, or harlequin detachments instead of including Ynnari at all. I can see where giving up a free relic and your good warlord traits to gain access to an iffy mechanic (soul burst) would be frustrating.

Though again, I don't necessarily think that we should get access to asuryani relics/traits; I'd rather we be allowed to take non-special character Ynnari warlords and then gain access to Ynnari-specific relics and traits. Surely Yvraine doesn't need to hold her lieutenants hands at every battle?

Part of your issue is that you are playing an index faction right now, in any of those other factions you have 1 relic and 1 trait, most of which are meh. So yes pure Ynnari, are a bit hurting. As to the rest, that is a problem with the game design right now, things need to be balanced assuming they are played in soup because that is what is most powerful, it sucks but that is what we have right now. I don't think the special character should be required, but I think a ynnari warlord requirement is fine.

My response to the "not ever game is optimized list tournament game" is that if you don't care about optimization why does it matter about your special rule not being super powerful for all units. Look at many chapter tactics, they are not super useful for every unit in the army, so if you are building an army that is not taking advantage of its trait that is really on you.


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 peteralmo wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 peteralmo wrote:
The warlord trait is a nuisance, to be sure, but my biggest source of stress comes from the lack of a free relic. I often use the wings of faolchu to save a considerable amount of points for a buffing HQ that needs mobility to keep up the unit they're meant to buff, a baseline farseer or autarch is much cheaper than the skyrunner variants. Eldar typically have 6-8 command points at the most, and with a slew of very useful, borderline necessary stratagems, command points are pure gold. Having to be taxed one right off the bat is frustrating.

If your response would be, well ynnari are busted good so get over it, well I think the best guard lists are pretty damn brutal and cheesy, and yet they face no obstacles in regard to warlord traits and command points (in fact guard often have 10-14 CP). Not to mention the imperium keyword is arguably much stronger than the aeldari one.

My argument would be if it bothers you don't play ynnari. Arguably Ynnari give eldar an additional 10-12 CP (soulburst value) on top of the 7-8 (you don't have 6 if you play ynnari unless you play pure ynnari) you already have. You don't need to burn through them anywhere near as fast as marines or chaos who have a bunch of 2 and 3 CP desirable stratagems.

Paying 1 CP to get a relic, when having ynnari grants you effectively 10 more seems like a bargain to me. As for keywords, you say imperium is stronger, but that might only be true now because only 1 aeldari faction has a codex, where as almost the entire imperium does, and at that most of those factions are worse than craftworld eldar or ynnari (index). Guard has a ton of CP but not that many great stratagems by comparison.

I agree with most of this. Although I think the "you get x extra cp from soulburst" has become a classic fish story, the number keeps getting bigger and bigger. "The heavily nerfed soulburst gives you like 50 billion extra cp's!" I don't know where this math is coming from honestly. Yvraine lets one unit shoot an extra around each turn, are you counting that as 2 free cp x 5 rounds or something? Do you forget that units like leman russ and fire prisms just shoot twice for free? Not sure how it is clearly "worth" 2 cp, because of the slaanesh stratagem?

Presumably those units have the ability to shoot twice worked into their points cost and balancing because it is an inherent unit trait, soul burst is not unless you are arguing that all Aeldari units are over costed normally.

Slaanesh shoot twice strat is 2 CP
Deathwing assault is 2-3 CP and highly restricted to shoot twice a single time per game with a unit that costs 200+ points
Tyranid Stratagem to shoot twice is 2 CP


Every fight twice strat I can think of is 3 CP.

So if you have a unit fight twice 2 times and shoot twice 2 times that is 10 CP worth of value to most armies, that have those abilities. So 10 extra CP is arguably on the low side if you double shoot your reapers 5 times, and double assault 3, that would be equivalent of 19 CP for most armies. IF you double move that could arguably be worth as much as 1 CP etc. If I were to play to want to shoot twice with most armies 5 turns would cost me 10 CP. Ynnari do it for "free". For most armies fighting twice with a unit could well cost me near half my CPs. So your argument that Eldar are starved for CP falls flat on me because most other armies have a harder time with them because they don't get other ways for key units to shoot twice, or fight twice, move twice. The only other army that can do it is sisters, and their units are no where near as powerful as a general rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 peteralmo wrote:
Yes, thank you for that acknowledgment. The original point was that the snowflake ynnari warlord rule was unjust. So you you want to play ynnari? Well you have to field one of these special characters, ok, no problem there, oh, and they have to be your warlord, wait, what? Even if I only take one small detachment? Yes, suck it. And please don't say, but the fluff... No where else is the fluff used to pigeon whole an army so much. Case in point, according to the fluff, Roboute Guilliman is just short of the emperor come back to life, maybe the greatest tactical genius ever. And yet, I can field him in an army right now in which a lowly commisar is his warlord, fluff my you know what lol!

And yes to the point about ynnari players being stuck between a rock and a hard place. First they nerf strength from death into the ground, essentially announcing to the world, you're only ever going to field these guys in a small group now. Then when people do the inevitable, everyone cries cheesy foul. What was were ynnari players to do? Well I guess I'll give up my awesome craftworld attributes, and battle focus, and good warlord traits, and free relic, and on top of all of that, not take some reapers and spears? Please. GW practically built the list themselves, don't yell at the people who simply followed the game designers lead. Heck they even dropped reapers points after nerfing ynnari, again, what did you think people were going to do?

IF you don't use Rowboat as your warlord you give up his free 3 CP, so yes you do give up some rule benefit same as ynnari. Maybe not on the same scale and you can play ultra marines faction without him.

I think the ynnari codex should give them some other tactic and not have SFD be the main rule benefit.

Yes, I acknowledge the loss of 3 CP, and it's a big loss, to be sure, but at least the tactical flexibility is still in your hands. Anyway, yes, I think a lot of these issues arise from having this bizarro world of codexes (fully fleshed out) and indexes (half-baked) having to co-exist unharmoniously. Hopefully all will be sorted when everyone has a codex.