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Recently it came to mind how original some of GW stuff over the years have been. Then again there is a tonne of copycat stuff in the game.
The Background is really the driver of warhammer 40K to be honest.

I think the Jes Goodwin Eldar stuff really hits a home run for originality.
A lot of the epic Squat stuff like Cyclops, Colossus and Leviathan are pretty original.

The Squat Bikers seemed to have come on the heels of Mad Max movies.

Tyranids in their early form seemed to come right out of the Alien movie franchise mania.
The 2nd generation Nid models have many copies from the Alien Queen. (or the Brood from Marvel Comics...which itself copied Aliens)
Whereas the original Hunter Screamer Carnifex is one of the most iconic images of GW originality.

The necrons ofc came on the surge of the Terminator movies.
The Tau likewise came at the end of the 90's when the rage was all Japanese anime / robot stuff.

The Adeptus Arbites are from the Judge Dread look a like contest.
I think I saw some flying bikes in Dune or Judge Dread that look a lot like the Custodes bikers.

The '2nd generation 'horseshoe' Wave Serpent / Falcon were supposed a copy of a mid 90's video game vehicle....unlike the very organic 'iron' shaped Jes Goodwin Wave Serpent.

So in your mind has GW created a setting, with rules, models, stories that are mostly original
or have they bastarized the 'flavour of the month' to tailor the game to a quick buck due to some fan mania in popular culture?

Im on the fence about it with my love of the lore....but a lot of the factions do seem to have been generated soley to 'get their share' of some hype.

 admironheart wrote:

Im on the fence about it with my love of the lore....but a lot of the factions do seem to have been generated soley to 'get their share' of some hype.

There's nothing new under the sun, so they say. Back when GW was just a few Brits carving molds with animal bones, they probably wanted something that would appeal to people with Sci-Fi and Fantasy interests. Little nods here and there probably drew people in to the 'familiarity' of it all. And, truthfully, it's kinda smart.

And GW isn't alone in doing things like this. The overwhelming majority of fantasy games (video games and tabletop) are drawn straight out of Tolkien. Science Fiction games tend to draw from Star Wars or Star Trek, sometimes both with a splash of Blade Runner.

So no, it's not entirely original. It's a playful nod to a lot of things, and that's not a bad thing at all.

But hey, what's funny is I've heard people say that Space Marines were knockoffs of Halo Spartans.

Don’t forget that 40k is totally a ripoff of Starcraft *Sarcasm*

The original 40k was anything but original. Tons of pop culture reference there.


Even recently there has been a lot of inspiration from other sources. The Necron planes, for example, are quasiborrowed from StarGate

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
But hey, what's funny is I've heard people say that Space Marines were knockoffs of Halo Spartans.

Or that 40k is a Starcraft Ripoff

Were the Tau really added in the late 90s, though? I thought they were a late 3e thing? They weren't in the BRB for 3e.

Confirming Tau for 3rd ed.

The brilliance of 40K is taking all that and forming a rich and cohesive mishmash greater than the sum of its parts.

I don't know about anything else...

But the imperium is original. Sure, its parts are nothing new but how they are combined is just the level of insanity that is all completely new and originality and joy.

There is nothing else in ANY fiction that is like the imperium of 40k. Man...

It's basically not original at all. Space marines are direct ripoffs of Heinlein, except these space marines are 1000X more inept. No Y-racks, for example.

I can't point at specific design elements of 40k that I'd call 'original', but I do find the tone/feel that they produce unique and compelling. Plenty of people are willing to write scifi/fantasy settings where it feels like there's an underlying order to the cosmos, but I don't know that I've ever seen someone else decide that the underlying order to the cosmos hates everything in it on a weirdly personal level the way 40k does.


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Martel732 wrote:
It's basically not original at all. Space marines are direct ripoffs of Heinlein, except these space marines are 1000X more inept. No Y-racks, for example.

...Meh? The name's the only thing they really have in common; Tau Battlesuits are a lot more of a ripoff of Heinlein's Space Marines than any of the actual Space Marines are.

Grimdark is so 80s. LOL

Tau are functionally more like them, but are clearly inspired by anime. They both pale in comparison to the originals. I just can't get over the lack of WMDs in 40K. Guess it doesn't make for a good game.

GW can take a number in line of the people who ripped off Orcs and Elves from the Tolkien estate.

they are, original in the sense that they drew from every nerd/war/1984/etc trope out there.

More recent stuff has been "more original". tho still trawling (not trolling...well maybe sob players)the depths of popcult.

it's kinda what made me want to play rogue trader in the first place. I had my hells angels biker squats and loved playing against nids(xenomorph), stuck up eldar(clearly posh aholes) and Orks(righteous hooligans).

I'm all for the direction they've taken since ('cept the squatting) and I'm really digging 8th but I do long for the batshitinsaness of "original" 40k.

Martel732 wrote:
It's basically not original at all. Space marines are direct ripoffs of Heinlein, except these space marines are 1000X more inept. No Y-racks, for example.

What about the Custodes? Or the Emperor? Or the regular Guardsmen? None of them were thinly weiled ripoffs of (then) current (or past) equivalents.

Heck, even space marines are way different from those that Heinlein introduced: Starship troopers (book) are just... different. Why are you even comparing them with 40k-space marines? The only thing common with them is the fact that they wear "power armor"... and even that is functionally, tactically and strategically different from the power armor that 40k introduced.

I'm comparing them because they are a direct ripoff. Just a ghetto, crappy one. Also, the 1000 per chapter thing is unforgivably stupid.

Regular guardsmen have an army of Rambo ripoffs. Custodes are just fatter fatty fat marines.

 RedCommander wrote:
I don't know about anything else...

But the imperium is original. Sure, its parts are nothing new but how they are combined is just the level of insanity that is all completely new and originality and joy.

There is nothing else in ANY fiction that is like the imperium of 40k. Man...

Nope. The imperium is drawn directly from Dune, Judge Dredd, and the 2000 AD comics, particularly Rogue Trooper. and a fair bit of then current satire. This wasn't subtle or hidden- it definitely wasn't intended as new or originally, and certainly not joy. It was part of tradition of social critique through parody via extremism.

@AnomanderRake- largely it isn't personal, it's an actively hostile but indifferent universe, a la Lovecraft. One with no heroes, and people die alone and unremembered, wih signature caveat that the universe is a big place, but whatever happens you will not be missed. Now granted, modern GW loves their superheroes to an absurd degree beyond death itself, but the modern settings rather lack the flavor, depth and pure crazy that originally characterized the game. It's just the Nth iteration of stuff everyone has seen before.

I forgot Dune. How could I have forgotten that source? The original space barbarism story. At least they had a sorta cool in-world reason.

 Infantryman wrote:

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
But hey, what's funny is I've heard people say that Space Marines were knockoffs of Halo Spartans.

Or that 40k is a Starcraft Ripoff

Were the Tau really added in the late 90s, though? I thought they were a late 3e thing? They weren't in the BRB for 3e.

Oh yes, very late 90s - late 3rd edition. There have been 5 editions for 40k since the early 2000s. There were 3 in the 13 years betwixt origin and 2000.

Tau were 2001

Adeptus Mechanicus is very borrowed from a group in The Foundation. A group in the 2nd book understood and collected technology and 'sold' it to other groups. Used it to manipulate them against one another - however, the barbarians they sold it to didn't understand it, so could not reproduce it, nor could they use it against the 'priests'.

They taught the barbarians the 'religious rites' on how to start the device and make them function properly, but little else. The generally sold their technology as magic that only their 'priests' could understand.

The Imperium itself could have been borrowed from numerous sources.

Really though - all art is borrowed from another source in one form or another. Originality is a real rabbit hole if you want to dive into it. Artists can unconsciously 'borrow' things without knowing it, or purposely just borrow elements. It's all legit as long as it's not a direct ripoff.

There's some factions that I believe are original;

Space.
Orks.

SoB.

Admech.

The demonic aspects of the chaos gods are unique excepting perhaps the Bloodthirster.

As someone has said before, originality is always suspect and GW is sensible tapping into designs and style of existing, successful tropes.

Bloodthirster is a Tolkien Balrog.

SOB are basically Joan of Arc clones.

Space Orks are fantasy Orks who were originally patterned after Nazis and football hooligans/punks

I find the Fungus based Orks pretty original. Also that they run around with machine guns.

What's special about 40K is probably that it throws everything together. All those references to Sci-Fi AND Fantasy, Heinlein, Orwell, Star Wars, Tolkien, Alien, Terminator, Lovecraft and whatever comes to your mind. It all comes together in one hilariously over the top grimdark satire, where the most ridiculously evil dictatorship you could ever imagine is described as humanities only hope to survive (as a Chaosplayer I have to say it's not, of course. It's the reason people fall to Chaos in the first place ).

There is a LOT of nods and parodues to popular culture. That was a thing about the 8 0s, having a bit of tongue in cheek fun.
Crons need no explanation same with the niddies who were drawn a lot from Alien in its earlier inceptions and later the guard vs niddy pairing one couldnt help but see starship troopers.
Sly Marbo...Sylverster....Marbo =Rambo...i see what you did there...

Even the setting itself for humanity has a lot of elements taken from Frank Herberts "Dune" when you sit down a look at it. A futuristic human space empire following an emperor administrated by a council; space travel only possible by mutated navigators. An elite force of feared soldiers recruited from convicts.

I do think GW are trying to forge their own originality more these dats if nothing else due to IP laws.

It doesn't help that every single major Imperial Guard faction is a direct historical copy.
2 Russians, Americans, Vietnam Americans, Victorian British, WW2 Nazi's, World War 1 Germans, Generic WW2 Germans...

It'd be nice if just one of the major regiments was something wholely orginal.

Admech is definately one of their better tries at orginality, though the 80's space robot theme is strong.

40k isn't original. It's a collage of previously existing ideas, concepts and visuals. While that makes it more like a beer can sculpture than fine art, I'm not ashamed of liking it. ;-]

 Stephanius wrote:
40k isn't original. It's a collage of previously existing ideas, concepts and visuals. While that makes it more like a beer can sculpture than fine art, I'm not ashamed of liking it. ;-]

I don't think anyone considers 40k fine art. Or even anything above the nerd equivalent of a blockbuster movie. But like a blockbuster movie it's still entertaining and has no pretensions about being rediculous for the sake of it. When you name the leader of your green skinheads after Thatcher you can't really have any claim to depth or subtlety.

No, it isn't original. It's a bunch of British left wing nerds making satire based on their favourite films and books that probably hit its sweet spot in the mid 90's through second edition. After that, for me at least, despite still having a compelling background it started taking itself way to seriously.

This was likely a good business decision as it became more 'child friendly' and popular outside of the UK.

 Ascalam wrote:
SOB are basically Joan of Arc clones.

They originated as a political joke - French special forces (fleur de lys) blowing a hole in the side of the rainbow warrior.

If you dig out the old Sister Sin image you'll notice she has a little demon skull motif going on ("Operation Satanic"). The rest of the nuns with guns theme was just a contrast to the rogue trader era convict monks.

Yeah it's why the drive for copyrightable names is such a joke, the whole games copied from other sources to begin with.

Very little of it is original, but the amalgamation of all the parts heavily influenced by other media is quite unlike most other fictional universes.

It is a shame that some of the more tongue in cheek elements were removed when they went more from Grimdark to Dark Dark.

 RedCommander wrote:
I don't know about anything else...

But the imperium is original. Sure, its parts are nothing new but how they are combined is just the level of insanity that is all completely new and originality and joy.

There is nothing else in ANY fiction that is like the imperium of 40k. Man...

No way. The Imperium and the Emperor 100% rip off Frank Herbert's Dune.

For all of those, who think that AdMech backstory is original concept, go and read "A canticle for Leibowitz" by Walter M. Miller. AdMech are a direct rip-off, pretty much as direct as Genestealers/Space Hulk were. The only difference is that it's a rip-off from a less known and aged source (the book was written in 1960's).

Apart from being a rip-off source this is basically a "must read" for all AdMech fans out there, as it is SO immersive if you picture AdMech aesthetics into it...