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Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







So, we can probably all agree that the price for Hive Scum and Bounty Hunters is ridiculous for campaign play. They pay full price for wargear and the cost of their statlines is perfectly in line with regular gang members, but they only stick around for 1 game. So in what world does it make sense to ever hire them?

So here's my starting proposal, intended to keep things simple. Exact percentages can be tweaked of course, I'm not super confident what price is fair for what.


When you hire a Hive Scum or Bounty Hunter, select one of 3 contracts:

a) Skirmish Contract - You pay 20% of the standard cost of the fighter and their wargear. They stay on for a single game.

b) Campaign Contract - You pay 50% of the standard cost of the fighter and their wargear. They stay on until they suffer a lasting injury (anything more serious than "In Recovery").

c) Lifetime Contract - You pay 100% of the standard cost of the fighter and their wargear. They stay on until killed.

In any case, they still don't get XP or Advancements (Hive Scum are too dumb and Bounty Hunters are already at their peak) and can't pass their wargear on to others. But you may add to their gear later at the same discount rate, up to their listed capacity.


This all only applies for campaign games, of course. In one-offs, you always pay full price.

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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I don't think you should have to pay a cent for a hired gun's guns. A hired gun should come with guns. Sounds simplistic, but when you hire a lawyer you don't pay for his law degree. You don't pay for the tools required to perform a surgery. You don't pay for a driving instructor's vehicle.

The problems I always had with Hired Guns were:

1. They were only useful in the early campaign, because in the latter campaign your guys often outclassed them with skills.
2. They were too expensive in the early game to be worth bothering with.

If they don't gain XP, there's no reason to take them later. If they cost too much, you're better off saving your creds for permanent members.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

Agreed. I still can't fathom why they didn't just rip off the Mordheim system for Hired Swords - you pay a hire fee to recruit them, and an upkeep fee for each game after the first you want them to stick around(if you don't pay, they leave). They advance and gain skills like your warband members, but are locked-in to their custom equipment.

Personally I'd also include a couple of the house rules that have been floating around the community for a while now(firstly that if you allow them to depart they don't vanish, but are put into a pool that the other players in your campaign can recruit from, and also "Blood Brothers" ie a small but steadily increasing chance they'll join up with your warband permanently), but even stock it's a better system than Hired Guns, which just seems pointless - Gangers are your disposable pawns, and it seems like by the time you can afford to buy Bounty Hunters you'll have plenty of well-skilled champions you'll want to buy shiny expensive gear for instead.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

Is the unwritten intent that the underdog is supposed to get free money---the difference between ratings---- to finance hired gun support?

Thread Slayer 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 privateer4hire wrote:
Is the unwritten intent that the underdog is supposed to get free money---the difference between ratings---- to finance hired gun support?


Well, if it is, that's dumb, it should be written. But, from all indications - no, Andy seems to genuinely believe they're priced appropriately. Apparently being able to buy extra guys or essentially use the BH rules to "list tailor" before a game by building one designed specifically to screw with any given opponent is considered a huge advantage? Honestly I don't really know what's going on with the studio's outlook on the game - apparently every campaign they ran they ended up rolling in credits, so who knows what their thinking is.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Ottawa Ontario Canada

Am I wrong in thinking that, to make a game work it has to work in one off games (at least function) before you make campaigns work? I understand the appeal of campaigns, but in my eyes its a crawl, walk then run approach, if the first step is having to start a campaign and recruit other players into said campaign, that seems daunting.

If they can't balance like 3 lists with some common elements in between, why even attempt campaigns?

I'll echo the hired guns thing makes no sense, if you hire a hitman and he's all "I'm a professional, but like, got any guns I could use bro?" just seems silly on top of a poor investment,

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/19 22:00:01


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you should have to pay a cent for a hired gun's guns. A hired gun should come with guns. Sounds simplistic, but when you hire a lawyer you don't pay for his law degree. You don't pay for the tools required to perform a surgery. You don't pay for a driving instructor's vehicle.


Eh, I'm fine with that part, a dude with a plasma cannon can obviously charge more for his services than a skub with a stub.

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Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't think you should have to pay a cent for a hired gun's guns. A hired gun should come with guns. Sounds simplistic, but when you hire a lawyer you don't pay for his law degree. You don't pay for the tools required to perform a surgery. You don't pay for a driving instructor's vehicle.


Um... yes you do... for each of those examples I'm pretty sure you do in fact pay for the associated equipment and overheads as part of the cost... how else would it get paid for?

On topic, I agree entirely. It's weird to have to work out what guns the hired gun has and pay for them in the same way as a gang member.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
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Made in ca
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller




No, you pay for the Hired gun, but they begin with a fixed amount of gear and weapons...so pay 80 cred for the guy, and then you can customise him with 60/150 creds worth of gear, max 5 weapons etc etc
   
Made in ca
Stinky Spore




What stops someone from constantly taking the 20% one off price every game and just saying they are hired for that game? If they gain no experience or anything then there is no drawback to just re hiring right before a game.

Edit*
Also something I just thought of. Couldn't you, as a campaign tactic run your gang constantly less in gang rating to exploit the rep. bonus to gangs with lower gang rating and use hired guns to make up for it for what you actually bring to the board? I don't have a copy of gang war 2 yet so it would depend on if the cost of bounty hunters and hired guns it counted towards that rep bonus or not. That could be a powerful tactic and the reason for the seemingly high cost.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/20 05:40:41


 
   
Made in us
Fiery Bright Wizard





California

The issue is thinking competitively, the min maxing mindset. I understand why people do that with Blood Bowl, which makes for a better competitive game. But with Necromunda I feel is meant to be more narrative based and about fun, not necessarily winning by itself.

The point of the bounty hunters IMO is not to be game winners or that effective. But just fun, something to spice up a match. If you want to min/max and be efficient then they don't make a lot of sense, same with blood bowl star players who can fail you more often than not.

I'd hire them for amusement and fun, not cause they are going to do me much good in the long run. The issue with making them too worthwhile is that they will always be used. It would be annoying to be going up against hired guns and bounty hunters every other game IMO.

 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 Thargrim wrote:
The issue is thinking competitively, the min maxing mindset. I understand why people do that with Blood Bowl, which makes for a better competitive game. But with Necromunda I feel is meant to be more narrative based and about fun, not necessarily winning by itself.

The point of the bounty hunters IMO is not to be game winners or that effective. But just fun, something to spice up a match. If you want to min/max and be efficient then they don't make a lot of sense, same with blood bowl star players who can fail you more often than not.

I'd hire them for amusement and fun, not cause they are going to do me much good in the long run. The issue with making them too worthwhile is that they will always be used. It would be annoying to be going up against hired guns and bounty hunters every other game IMO.


Balance might be less strictly necessary in nararrative games but wanting balance is never an issue. There is nothing fun about taking a Bounty Hunter for 1 game and basically forfeiting all your future games because you'll be down 25% of your gang rating forever.

You maximize fun by making everything decent so that it doesn't matter what people pick and they can field whatever they like. Not by making some options such garbage they make players almost auto-lose (and by the same logic of not giving balance any consideration, probably make some options much too powerful).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 07:59:35


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Fresh-Faced New User




Inquisitor Jex wrote:
No, you pay for the Hired gun, but they begin with a fixed amount of gear and weapons...so pay 80 cred for the guy, and then you can customise him with 60/150 creds worth of gear, max 5 weapons etc etc


Pretty sure its this.

Nowhere does it say you pay for the equipment just the amount you can equip them with.

If you had to pay for it why would there even be a limit?

It definitely needs clarifying though.
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







Andy Hoare posted on facebook that you pay for everything. His rationale is that being able to tailor a hired gun's loadout after knowing who your opponent is is worth paying full price for stuff that vanishes after 1 game.

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UK

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Andy Hoare posted on facebook that you pay for everything. His rationale is that being able to tailor a hired gun's loadout after knowing who your opponent is is worth paying full price for stuff that vanishes after 1 game.


I don't see why you do not get to keep the guns after the game as they are your guns? So effectively just paying the hire price and the equipment goes into the stash?

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Made in gb
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 lord_blackfang wrote:
Balance might be less strictly necessary in nararrative games but wanting balance is never an issue. There is nothing fun about taking a Bounty Hunter for 1 game and basically forfeiting all your future games because you'll be down 25% of your gang rating forever.
You maximize fun by making everything decent so that it doesn't matter what people pick and they can field whatever they like. Not by making some options such garbage they make players almost auto-lose (and by the same logic of not giving balance any consideration, probably make some options much too powerful).

Exactly. From a game design standpoint, 'trap' choices (options that are strictly worse than the alternatives) actually skew a game towards the competitive / WAAC type of player, because they are the ones who can spot the traps and avoid them, thus gaining a potentially huge advantage over the casual / narrative player who either doesn't realise an option is bad, or chooses that option anyway for non-competitive reasons ("I like the model" or "this fits the story I have in my mind of my gang's development") and ends up getting screwed.

If you're a committed narrative / casual player who doesn't want to have to think about which options are competitively better than others, then ideally you want a very well-balanced system with no outright trap choices.

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in nl
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

I think that's true to an extent, yes. Pursuing balance at the expense of all else can be rubbish for a narrative gamer, as it often leads to a development mindset that favours "streamlining" and removing options, but there's a happy medium and Newcromunda presently does not achieve it. EDIT: Though I should include a disclaimer that my opinion on the subject might not be worth much, as I've been officially branded Not A Proper Narrative Gamer by the INQ28 bigwigs, because I like structured force selection

And to be honest, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to the whole "Bounty Hunters/Hired Guns are for narrative stuff, stop being so WAAC brah" argument if Andy Hoare wasn't on Facebook explicitly arguing they're valid, tactical choices totally worth their cost, indeed arguing that so strenuously he's apparently trying to get a twitch stream set up to discuss exactly why they're so brilliant.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 12:50:27


I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Eh, I'm fine with that part, a dude with a plasma cannon can obviously charge more for his services than a skub with a stub.
Except you bought him the Plasma Cannon, and then he feths off with it when you stop paying him. That makes zero sense.

 Flinty wrote:
Um... yes you do... for each of those examples I'm pretty sure you do in fact pay for the associated equipment and overheads as part of the cost... how else would it get paid for?
Not even close. Using my driving instructor example, you don't buy the whole car, and then the instructor keeps it.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Except you bought him the Plasma Cannon, and then he feths off with it when you stop paying him. That makes zero sense.


Hence my suggestion that you either get a massive discount to hire him for 1 game, or pay full and keep him forever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/25 19:40:50


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Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Um... yes you do... for each of those examples I'm pretty sure you do in fact pay for the associated equipment and overheads as part of the cost... how else would it get paid for?
Not even close. Using my driving instructor example, you don't buy the whole car, and then the instructor keeps it.


Ah ha. Now I see what you mean. Apologies, you are correct. Otherwise I would again be in the wrong line of work and would re train as a driving instructor post haste

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yes, I only train people in Lambo's or Aston Martins, so please purchase any of the following models...


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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