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Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43111800

Isn’t it about time this practice was stopped in civilised countries? It’s not remotely necessary and I don’t think that preventing you cutting bits of your children’s genitalia off effectively for cosmetic reasons, albeit religiously motivated, amounts to ‘restricting religious freedom’. I hope Iceland press ahead with this and other countries start to follow suit. If people want circumcisions for religious reasons, let them choose when they become an adult. No baby is born a Jew or Muslim, their parents force that identity on them with irreversible surgery.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 18:18:10


 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43111800

Isn’t it about time this practice was stopped in civilised countries? It’s not remotely necessary and I don’t think that preventing you cutting bits of your children’s genitalia off effectively for cosmetic reasons, albeit religiously motivated, amounts to ‘restricting religious freedom’. I hope Iceland press ahead with this and other countries start to follow suit. If people want circumcisions for religious reasons, let them choose when they become an adult. No baby is born a Jew or Muslim, their parents force that identity on them with irreversible surgery.


I don't mean to cut in but that's a big deal for certain religions.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

This is a delicate subject because many of us were circumcised and do not feel damaged or resent our parents, and it can often feel like we are being asked to. Religious freedom is also an area where it is difficult to make compromises.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

It's a hard subject to get your head around. Chopping up someone's religious beliefs is going to erect a lot of resentment. We shouldn't be premature about it.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Frazzled wrote:
It's a hard subject to get your head around. Chopping up someone's religious beliefs is going to erect a lot of resentment. We shouldn't be premature about it.


Puns seem a little insensitive. Maybe we should cut them out.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

Genital mutilation of either sex is an asinine practice with no place in society, barring religious reasons. And then it should be only allowed when the person reaches age of consent.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
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Xeno-Hating Inquisitorial Excruciator




London

I really wanted to post something serious (against the snip, btw!), but Frazzled and Bob kind of cut me off...
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





Dunno if this is something that requires legislation.

I think over time, with education for new parents who would perhaps just choose to circumcise their sons because they think it's what they're supposed to do for whatever reason (or do it without thinking at all), it will decline.

I don't like the practice, but I despise government intervening in people's personal lives even more.

Let the practice die out because the reasons to not circumcise are better than the reasons to circumcise. Perhaps that's a bit idealistic, but no solution's perfect.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Oxfordshire

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I don't like the practice, but I despise government intervening in people's personal lives even more.
Where as I despise people mutilating children and believe stopping abusive parents is exactly when government should intervene.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
It's a hard subject to get your head around. Chopping up someone's religious beliefs is going to erect a lot of resentment. We shouldn't be premature about it.


Puns seem a little insensitive. Maybe we should cut them out.


Puns are inappropriate no matter how you slice it, and I feel like what we have seen so far are just the tip.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Henry wrote:
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I don't like the practice, but I despise government intervening in people's personal lives even more.
Where as I despise people mutilating children and believe stopping abusive parents is exactly when government should intervene.


And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

I am against this. While some people have gone on record to complain about male circumcision. That is a new phenomena, and they are a handful out of literal billions.

Male circumcision is a cultural covenant, and it is nobody elses business except the families involved and their faith.

There is no commandment in Islam or Judaism about female circumcision though, it is considerably more dangerous and has detrimental effects on the well being of the female victim. Having an uneven ban is on one but not the other is not illogical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Frazzled wrote:
 Henry wrote:
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I don't like the practice, but I despise government intervening in people's personal lives even more.
Where as I despise people mutilating children and believe stopping abusive parents is exactly when government should intervene.


And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.


It's also extremely loaded to call it a 'mutilation' also.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 18:58:51


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Henry wrote:
 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
I don't like the practice, but I despise government intervening in people's personal lives even more.
Where as I despise people mutilating children and believe stopping abusive parents is exactly when government should intervene.



Sure, but can you dial it down a bit? Shades of grey here. Circumcised penises still function, and their bearers still lead normal lives. Let's keep some perspective and try to build bridges.

Frankly, your reaction is going to result in more stubbornness by the parents who might otherwise be open to the kind of education that produces the actual results you want.

   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Frazzled wrote:
And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.


I dunno man. While it's not as egregious as female genital mutilation, it definitely seems like the same ballpark: a medically unnecessary surgery done for religious or cultural reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:03:43


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Chicago, Illinois

Good, stopping a barbaric practice that has no place in our society.

Its an entire sensation and feeling gone for a kid. There is very few 'medical' benefits, just religious people doing it because they want to.

From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war. 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of Texas

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.


I dunno man. While it's not as egregious as female genital mutilation, it definitely seems like the same ballpark: a medically unnecessary surgery done for religious or cultural reasons.


We should note, in the US for decades it was recommended by the medical community as being healthier.
Medicine and views change. Thats cool. Treat it as such. Going apeshit and using apeshit terms is not helpful to the argument.

(to be clear I am against the practice except for religious reasons, but again thats between the doctor and parents).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

 Orlanth wrote:

Where as I despise people mutilating children and believe stopping abusive parents is exactly when government should intervene.



It's also extremely loaded to call it a 'mutilation' also.


Somewhat depends on how half-assed a job is made of the operation, there are quite a lot that don’t go as planned.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:09:04


 
   
Made in ru
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Room

Jewish and Muslim leaders however have called the bill an attack on religious freedom.


Religious "freedom"? But no one asked that child if he wants to be a muslim or jewdaist. They just doing that as if child their property, not a individual person.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:14:05


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

 Frazzled wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.


I dunno man. While it's not as egregious as female genital mutilation, it definitely seems like the same ballpark: a medically unnecessary surgery done for religious or cultural reasons.


We should note, in the US for decades it was recommended by the medical community as being healthier.
Medicine and views change. Thats cool. Treat it as such. Going apeshit and using apeshit terms is not helpful to the argument.

(to be clear I am against the practice except for religious reasons, but again thats between the doctor and parents).


Honestly, why do ‘religious reasons’ carry weight here? That’s not an argument in itself, it boils down to ‘b-b-but muh feels’. What is the logical and moral justification for carrying it out? A justification that stands on its own rather than an appeal to religion which apparently should be given a free pass on this.

Mostly I hear reasons to circumcise your children like ‘to keep clean’. Well washing your dick isn’t difficult. Then there’s some stuff about how you’re slightly less likely to catch HIV if you’re circumcised. And that’s a pretty thin argument to cut parts of sex organs off a baby.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:14:55


 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I definitely would be comfortable with a ban as done by some orthodox sects as they are currently practiced.

Presuming we're talking about being done by a medical professional.... I personally am against it. A government ban seems... I dunno, man. It seems a little heavy handed. I think if it passed I'd be OK but I think vaxxers are a bigger danger to the population at large.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.


I dunno man. While it's not as egregious as female genital mutilation, it definitely seems like the same ballpark: a medically unnecessary surgery done for religious or cultural reasons.



And religious cultures tend to do what when put on the defensive? History has shown that assimilation works while targeted laws create undergrounds. Education and cultural peer pressure are more effective than the strong arm of the law.







Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Freakazoitt wrote:
Jewish and Muslim leaders however have called the bill an attack on religious freedom.


Religious "freedom"? But no one asked that child if he wants to be a muslim or jewdaist. They just doing that as if child their property, not a individual person.



First of all, thank you for "jewdaist".

Second, we don't ask children before we vaccinate them, baptise them, educate them, etc..


And to be clear, I am also against the practice. When we chose not to circumcise our son, my parents were distraught that we were turning our back on our people.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:20:21


   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Yeah, I guess I'm pretty conflicted really. I'm definitely against it personally, and if I had kids, which I won't because kids are disgusting, I wouldn't have them circumcised... I also recognize that this is pretty important to some people's religions. I think you have to accommodate religion to a reasonable degree.

When you have a Jehovah's Witness hypothetically refusing a life-saving blood transfusion for their minor child, I think it's reasonable for the government to take that child into custody until they are again healthy. You can't accommodate a totally needless, avoidable death*

But a circumcision seems less onerous. I'm not saying there never are ill effects, but they seem very uncommon and most medical professionals obviously are OK with doing them as they don't see a real harm.

I think it's bad, but a government ban seems heavy handed, I guess.

*of course, my hypothetical was nice and black and white, not some of the murkier areas of medical care being refused for religious grounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:22:45


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Jewish and Muslim leaders however have called the bill an attack on religious freedom.


Religious "freedom"? But no one asked that child if he wants to be a muslim or jewdaist. They just doing that as if child their property, not a individual person.


Hey those 8 year olds have to earn. Daddy need a new pair of everything and those coal mines need workers*



*My grandpa went to sea as a child cabin boy to escape mine work. Thats hard core.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

How many people have seen it done in person, or have been involved in one?
   
Made in gb
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Frazzled wrote:
And there's the problem. You think the parents are being abusive. Thats at best a misplaced viewpoint, at worst a pretty fethed up one.


I dunno man. While it's not as egregious as female genital mutilation, it definitely seems like the same ballpark: a medically unnecessary surgery done for religious or cultural reasons.



And religious cultures tend to do what when put on the defensive? History has shown that assimilation works while targeted laws create undergrounds. Education and cultural peer pressure are more effective than the strong arm of the law.


a good point but why could you not have both. Argue the efficacy while also implimenting a ban? While it would create an underground this would still cut the number of cases and lets be fair education and cultural peer pressure can't grow bits back.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:26:31


 
   
Made in ca
Fireknife Shas'el






From a religious perspective, the circumcision of the Abrahamic covenant wasn't the full removal of the foreskin, just the foreskin beyond the glans of the penis. The full removal of the foreskin came during Greek/Roman times, when some Jews were undergoing procedures to lengthen their foreskins so they could pass as non-jews in sports and gymnasiums (which were done naked).

Anyways, the point being is that the full removal of the foreskin isn't necessary to fulfill Jewish custom.

Circumcision has never been necessary for Christians, though it became customary in the early 1900's for reasons of cleanliness and a belief it could help prevent the spread of STDs (and reduce masturbation, but who are we kidding here). IOW for secular reasons, and modern hygene has mostly eliminated these concerns, though it does make keeping the penis clean easier.

Anyways, you can't ban it, or you're effectively banning Judaism. It's a minor surgery that doesn't really interfere with the function of the organ and is still common enough to not cause social stigma. It can be performed with anesthetic, so it really shouldn't be considered abuse.


   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

It's kind of a fethed up practice when you think about it, particularly given the reason (fantasy) and who we do it to (defenseless infants who are supposed to be being protected by the people given it the go-ahead). I am not a fan and, as usual, Iceland is being awesome.

Having that been said, if I ever started a punk band, I ALWAYS liked the name "Tragic Circumcision Accident".


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Second, we don't ask children before we vaccinate them, baptise them, educate them, etc..


Vaccinations have a scientifically well established medical benefit and public health concern, baptisms ultimately do not alter a child physicallly, and education... you can’t seriously compare the need for educating a child with circumcising them. WTF?!
   
Made in us
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It can be performed with anesthetic, so it really shouldn't be considered abuse.
By this logic, you can ritually scar a child so long as it's done under anesthetic and doesn't interfere with bodily functions? I'm just clarifying because this sort of logic seems really odd to me .

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/19 19:31:34


 
   
Made in us
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Secret Squirrel






Leerstetten, Germany

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It can be performed with anesthetic, so it really shouldn't be considered abuse.
By this logic, you can ritually scar a child so long as it's done under anesthetic and doesn't interfere with bodily functions? I'm just clarifying because this sort of logic seems really odd to me .


The very vast majority of them are done by strapping the baby into this:



And then letting them sip on some sugar water while their skin is being cut off.

There is no anesthetic involved.
   
 
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