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I'm currently in the process of designing and converting some Solar Auxilia to be a modern 40k army. However, I'd like some feedback on how I'm going to model my special weapons and heavy weapons.

Im going the easy route and using 30k era special weapons (plasma/melta/flamer) to use on my troops, as they fit in with the ornate armour of the solar Auxilia and are very easily identified for WYSIWYG for tournament use.

For my heavy weapons, I'm really tempted to model them as hand held like the Necromunda figures are. The legion era heavy bolter/autocannon/lascannon seem small enough to be hand held, albeit more difficult than in power armour! If I use the correct size heavy weapons base, model one using the gun and his partner the ammo gopher, would that be blatantly obvious Wysiwyg and be legal for use? I'll be using normal 40k missile launchers, Grenade launchers and mortars as they blend nicely.

So, once again, your thoughts dakka?

I think I would use the Rapier Gun Platform instead.

I wouldn't suggest using the Rapier since it's got distinct rules of its own.

Old lore contains something called "suspensors", which is an anti-gravity mechanism that makes some heavy weapons more portable (Eldar infantry heavy weapons work similarly). I'd suggest using that as your logic to build Auxilia models carrying heavy weapons the way Marines do, if you don't want to build a carriage or a tripod.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I wouldn't suggest using the Rapier since it's got distinct rules of its own.

Yes...and?

Once one knows the statlines for the weapons, you can math out the points and the like for the weapons fairly easy. We have the 'basic' Rapier with Laser Destroyer in Imperial Armour Index Guard, we have the Quad Mortar, etc--it wouldn't be too hard to just run Rapiers as 'Heavy Weapon Squads' on occasion.

Old lore contains something called "suspensors", which is an anti-gravity mechanism that makes some heavy weapons more portable (Eldar infantry heavy weapons work similarly). I'd suggest using that as your logic to build Auxilia models carrying heavy weapons the way Marines do, if you don't want to build a carriage or a tripod.

Yeah, and that lore also has those suspensors so rare now in the Imperium that they're special issue wargear for the Deathwatch as the Imperium doesn't know how to replicate the technology...and the Eldar stuff uses antigrav platforms, basically their equivalent of a Rapier.


Please note that I'm meaning this in the nicest way possible, not trying to pick a fight. I just think that for the OP this would be the easiest approach, since the Rapier includes Solar Auxilia crew figures for two variants(Multilasers and Quad Mortars) that can potentially be used for other variants that are easy enough to port over to be 'not-Solar Auxilia'.

Maybe FW will release Solar Auxilia rules at some point for 40k, but I think that the general idea is that the organization no longer exists.

I'd be fine with it. Model the other guy as an ammo porter, battery manager, or spotter and you're good to go in my book. Or, go for the action movie hero approach, and make him larger, firing a heavy weapon and a lasgun, one in each hand.

Missile launchers are shown being hand operated all the time, as well as some heavy bolters (harker for example) In addition, there are instances of guys in the lore carrying heavy weapons elsewhere, like "try again" Bragg from gaunt's ghosts. Lascannons are the only iffy one, I could see that needing at least a bipod mount.

One thing you could look into is pictures of WWII German MG 42 teams. You see lots of pictures of them where one man crouched down and acts as an improvised stand for the weapon while the operator fires it over his shoulder. Probably not something one would do with a lascannon but would work fairly well with lighter weapons like a heavy bolter or autocannon. If your guys are in fully encolsed armor then I'd say they're good to go, since that would help protect from the heat of the weapon and allow them to do that kind of firing for longer. Obviously you would want to model the weapons with some sort of bipod at least for when they're fighting for a long period of time but it would not be unusual in the slightest to see guardsmen firing these kinds of weapons on the move if they had to. This is to say nothing of 40k tech where it wouldn't be surprising in the slightest to see some sort of basic flak armor that helps with a man's strength a bit or just say they're like catachans and freakishly strong because they're from a high grav world.

You can also model the teams as if they're redeploying, I used to have a few autocannon teams like that before I realized it was easiest to magnetize to deployed tripods.


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As for rules legality it's completely fine. You could model a guy operating a gun with his feet for all the game cares, as long as he's on a 60mm and the gun is correct youre wysiwyg

If it's still on a larger base, I really don't see why there should be a problem. Go for it!

I'd go with whatever looks better. If you want to be fluffy, run them as catachan, so infantry get a +1 str. It makes it seem like their suits are more built for power than protection - which fluff-wise, grants them the +1 str and ability to carry HWs.

Shouldn't a Lasscannon has like.... 0 recoil? So it probably should be actually the easier one to shoot, instead of an autocannon or a heavy bolter.

I'd actually echo considering the rapier and the actual rules for said rapiers, as they do most of the same job as HWS and are usable (and reasonably effective) in 30k to boot!

 Galas wrote:
Shouldn't a Lasscannon has like.... 0 recoil? So it probably should be actually the easier one to shoot, instead of an autocannon or a heavy bolter.

It is still a heavy and cumbersome piece of equipment with a power pack trailing behind it. Suspensors or otherwise the clue is in the term 'heavy' weapon.

I have a half-dozen Imperial Guard plastic troopers from 1E/2E who are carrying shoulder-mounted lascannons. I also have at least one metal guardsman shouldering a plasma cannon, one with a melta and another that looks to be shouldering an autocannon of some sort.

It was only some time later that GW revised the IG models to be using bipods and such for the heavy weapons for the guard, and moved the marine models from shouldering heavy weapons to two-handing them. Maybe around 3E?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I wouldn't suggest using the Rapier since it's got distinct rules of its own.

Yes...and?

Once one knows the statlines for the weapons, you can math out the points and the like for the weapons fairly easy. We have the 'basic' Rapier with Laser Destroyer in Imperial Armour Index Guard, we have the Quad Mortar, etc--it wouldn't be too hard to just run Rapiers as 'Heavy Weapon Squads' on occasion..

Math out? You seriously suggest him house ruling those stuff? Lascannon rapier? Good luck getting that tournament legal which seems what he's aiming to do as home game what he describes is no issue.

If he uses rapier models as heavy weapon teams that limits him from using rapiers as rapiers(or have "this rapier is HWS, this rapier is rapier" syndrome which is def not that well looked at tournaments). If he makes up rapiers with non-standard weapons that's out of tournaments right there. And means he has no HWS squads whatsoever or heavy weapons in his squad.


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 Stormonu wrote:
I have a half-dozen Imperial Guard plastic troopers from 1E/2E who are carrying shoulder-mounted lascannons. I also have at least one metal guardsman shouldering a plasma cannon, one with a melta and another that looks to be shouldering an autocannon of some sort.

It was only some time later that GW revised the IG models to be using bipods and such for the heavy weapons for the guard, and moved the marine models from shouldering heavy weapons to two-handing them. Maybe around 3E?

Naah 2nd ed already had various tripods and carriages. RT is probably where they last time had shoulder mounted.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I wouldn't suggest using the Rapier since it's got distinct rules of its own.

Yes...and?

Once one knows the statlines for the weapons, you can math out the points and the like for the weapons fairly easy. We have the 'basic' Rapier with Laser Destroyer in Imperial Armour Index Guard, we have the Quad Mortar, etc--it wouldn't be too hard to just run Rapiers as 'Heavy Weapon Squads' on occasion..

Math out? You seriously suggest him house ruling those stuff? Lascannon rapier? Good luck getting that tournament legal which seems what he's aiming to do as home game what he describes is no issue.

If he uses rapier models as heavy weapon teams that limits him from using rapiers as rapiers(or have "this rapier is HWS, this rapier is rapier" syndrome which is def not that well looked at tournaments). If he makes up rapiers with non-standard weapons that's out of tournaments right there. And means he has no HWS squads whatsoever or heavy weapons in his squad.

Then maybe if he wants to play tournaments, he shouldn't be using Solar Auxilia models as the "basis" for his army?

Just a helpful tip. You want things WYSIWYG for a tournament; go and actually find the models to match with it.

Eh. I have officers one-handing bolters (and at least one of those are official) so I'd think carrying around heavy weapons isn't completely out of the question. You make it look good, and keep it on the large base, and no one will care as long as they can tell what it is.

 Galas wrote:
Shouldn't a Lasscannon has like.... 0 recoil? So it probably should be actually the easier one to shoot, instead of an autocannon or a heavy bolter.

Some (real-world) cutting lasers use gases to help improve the effectiveness of the beam. I'm unfamiliar with the science behind it, but maybe to make a man portable one, it requires compressing gasses during firing such that there's a jerk or recoil of some sort. Science fiction, or something!

As long as you have 2 minis on an appropriately sized base and the weapons they have are clearly WYSIWYG, I'd be fine with them firing them from the shoulder or from the hip as opposed to crouching behind a tripod. It makes no difference rules-wise one way or the other.

 daedalus wrote:
Eh. I have officers one-handing bolters (and at least one of those are official) so I'd think carrying around heavy weapons isn't completely out of the question. You make it look good, and keep it on the large base, and no one will care as long as they can tell what it is.

 Galas wrote:
Shouldn't a Lasscannon has like.... 0 recoil? So it probably should be actually the easier one to shoot, instead of an autocannon or a heavy bolter.

Some (real-world) cutting lasers use gases to help improve the effectiveness of the beam. I'm unfamiliar with the science behind it, but maybe to make a man portable one, it requires compressing gasses during firing such that there's a jerk or recoil of some sort. Science fiction, or something!

I'd say no recoil myself. However, an autocannon, heavy bolter, or other type of gun is basically two tubes, with a box of machinery and explosives at one end. A good portion of it is hollow. A laser needs it's focusing crystal, which in theory takes up most of the barrel length. So, while there's no recoil, you still have something that's heavier, and over a longer length then a gun. Not including the power pack, on a cable.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Eh. I have officers one-handing bolters (and at least one of those are official) so I'd think carrying around heavy weapons isn't completely out of the question. You make it look good, and keep it on the large base, and no one will care as long as they can tell what it is.

 Galas wrote:
Shouldn't a Lasscannon has like.... 0 recoil? So it probably should be actually the easier one to shoot, instead of an autocannon or a heavy bolter.

Some (real-world) cutting lasers use gases to help improve the effectiveness of the beam. I'm unfamiliar with the science behind it, but maybe to make a man portable one, it requires compressing gasses during firing such that there's a jerk or recoil of some sort. Science fiction, or something!

I'd say no recoil myself. However, an autocannon, heavy bolter, or other type of gun is basically two tubes, with a box of machinery and explosives at one end. A good portion of it is hollow. A laser needs it's focusing crystal, which in theory takes up most of the barrel length. So, while there's no recoil, you still have something that's heavier, and over a longer length then a gun. Not including the power pack, on a cable.

Well, my presumption of recoil on the laser weapons was trying to find a way to generously handwave away the fact that otherwise would suggest that a weapon with zero recoil, zero bullet drop, and emission that literally travels at the speed of light only hits half the time if you're reasonably trained in it's use, less if you just picked it up with no training!

With regard to bolter weapons, at one point, I think I recall someone mentioning that bolter shells were rocket propelled. Ignoring the impracticality of that (and likelihood of surely being retconned by now), that would probably make me wonder how much recoil they actually had.

Well, for missing with a light-speed weapon, one excuse I've seen in other games is that there's a lag between the trigger pull and the weapon actual firing, much like loose powder weapons (muskets and such). That lag is something that a trained shooter would be capable of working with, while an untrained shooter might move his weapon off target, or let the target move out of direct line of the barrel before the weapon actually fires.

The fluff on bolters says that they are indeed gyrojet (rocket) guns. But they also frequently show shell casings, which gyro jets don't need. The best assumption I heard was that bolters are actually both. A gyrojet has literally no killing power until the motor has a chance to accelerate, one reason they never took off in the real world. A bolter uses a standard shell, which fires the round AND lights the rocket motor. Once it clears the barrel, the round's motor lets it keep accelerating, preventing it from losing muzzle velocity. So, for a 20mm rifle, the kick is less then it would be, because it only needs enough speed to be lethal at a short range, with the rocket handling long range, but it's still a 20mm rifle.

In original Necromunda, there was a sidebar bit that bolters had such a kick that normal humans couldn't handle the recoil. Power armor gave marines sufficient control they could be used as a standard weapon.

It should also be noted that bolter shells are explosive - speed helps it get to the target before it moves, but supposedly the shell is at least partially guided and designed to detonate inside the target. It is truly a "weapon of terror", but works far better against unarmored targets.

Just as an aside, in the video game Space Marine, one of the weapons you can pick up is a Lascannon. Going by the game - while not the best resource - while the gun is powerful, the beam is very small and it's quite difficult to "line up" on a target. But when you do, hoo boy.... I love watching orks vaporize into a red cloud in that game.

Well, if we pretend photons have mass, maybe discharging enough of them fast enough to cause immediate target penetration has a bit of a kick to it

Mass? no, photons have zero rest mass. However, they do have momentum, which is what recoil is, so no need to pretend. In fact, the plastic 40k Space Marine lascannon has a recoil compensator built into the shoulder rest. I leave calculating the beam intensity required for that to matter to a Space Marine as an exercise for the reader.

 Stormonu wrote:
I have a half-dozen Imperial Guard plastic troopers from 1E/2E who are carrying shoulder-mounted lascannons. I also have at least one metal guardsman shouldering a plasma cannon, one with a melta and another that looks to be shouldering an autocannon of some sort.

If they're the models I'm thinking of, the "plasma cannon" is a conversion beamer and the "autocannon" is a metal lascannon, which looks different to the plastic one.

It was only some time later that GW revised the IG models to be using bipods and such for the heavy weapons for the guard, and moved the marine models from shouldering heavy weapons to two-handing them. Maybe around 3E?

In 2nd edition, missile launchers stayed as shoulder-fired weapons (although they had a bipod; the Cadian and Catachan teams were modelled with it deployed, firing from a kneeling position, while the Valhallan, Mordian, Praetorian and Tallarn troops fired from a standing position). Heavy bolters and autocannon were mounted on a wheeled carriage with an integral gunner's seat, and the lascannon was on a carriage and fired remotely rather than by the gunner physically touching the gun. Then Necromunda came along and introduced heavy weapons fired from the hip or with a "chainsaw grip". That then fed into 40k 3rd edition, when the Marine heavy weapons were redesigned to give different weapons a different look; lascannon are fired from the shoulder because they're precise weapons - the 40k equivalent of the .50 anti-material rifle, while heavy bolters are fired from the hip so the firer can suppress a greater swept area of the battlefield.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
As long as you have 2 minis on an appropriately sized base and the weapons they have are clearly WYSIWYG, I'd be fine with them firing them from the shoulder or from the hip as opposed to crouching behind a tripod. It makes no difference rules-wise one way or the other.

This. Complaining about clear WYSIWYG would be silly.

Yea honestly just have them on the proper 60mm base

and have two guys and it will be cool.

have one guy Rambo the heavy

and another guy holding the ammo or spotting or smoking a cig or whatever.

In the Rogue Trader days, all Imperial Guardsmen used their heavy weapons handheld:





Could have sworn that there was a lasscannon one, but maybe I'm wrong.

Rocket girl and i think the ML from steel legion also did it.

but there was another model carrying a tube of missiles

 ChargerIIC wrote:
In the Rogue Trader days, all Imperial Guardsmen used their heavy weapons handheld:

...

Could have sworn that there was a lasscannon one, but maybe I'm wrong.

There was indeed a metal lascannon as well as the conversion beamer and heavy bolter. Also a heavy plasma gun, multi-melta and grenade launcher:
http://www.solegends.com/citrt2/rt502ighvy/index.htm

Rapiers are pretty good, and a decent alternative to lascannon teams.

For the other heavy weapon teams, you should consider getting the DKoK heavy weapon kits, as they will fit in with the scale and level of detailing of the rest of your army, and then replace the Krieg troopers with suitable Solar Aux. models. Shouldn't be hard and will probably come out well.