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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Piedmont N.C. of the usa

This is coming to be an issue in our club.

The problem is that gw is releasing a rulebook that overrides the rulebook and then forcing players to buy those rule in order to play by the right rules.

Does anyone else have issues with this pay for rules stratagy.

The base complaint is that chapter approved rewrites the rule book and any rulebook errata should be provided free. Thats what erratas are for.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 16:51:13


PEACE is a lie, there is only Passion,
through passion, I gain STRENGTH,
through strength, I gain POWER,
through power, I gain VICTORY through. victory, MY CHAINS are BROKEN.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

vaurapung wrote:
This is coming to be an issue in our club.

The problem is that gw is releasing a rulebook that overrides the rulebook and then forcing players to buy those rule in order to play by the right rules.

Does anyone else have issues with this pay for rules stratagy.

The base complaint is that chapter approved rewrites the rule book and any rulebook errata should be provided free. Thats what erratas are for.


Chapter approved included new content, and actually very few changes to the core rulebook. In fact, the only core rulebook changes I can think of are the Character rules and the points cost changes, while the rest of the book is new content.

So no, I don't have any problem paying for them to make me new stuff to enjoy. Chapter Approved is not just "errata" and in fact has very little errata in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 16:55:22


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Northridge, CA

vaurapung wrote:
Does anyone else have issues with this pay for rules stratagy.
You could always get one book for everyone, write down the relevant rules for yourself, or even add post it notes to your codexeseses, then one guy just brings it or you tell the store manager to keep this one for the store? There are solutions. There are even sites that have all the point changes so you can just make notes of them if you don't care about the other stuff in the book.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






We got one for the club. Also, several people bought it for the mission content. Didn't make much of a stir. /shrug.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





You just need to accept that the way GW games work now is that every year you (or one person in your group) needs to buy the update book.

GW has never had a "don't pay for rules" strategy. So this is not a dramatic change.

If neither you nor anybody you know is willing to pay less than the cost of 1 box of models for these annual rules then I guess... just play the older rules?

If you only play... I dunno... Harlequins... and don't want to pay the $20 for the rest of the book then maybe you can photocopy that one page?

TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.

Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I don't think paying for the book is an issue, but I do think things are problematically scattered between the Indexes, Codexes, FAQs, and Chapter Approved, it can often be difficult to be certain you have the latest rules for anything.
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





 Silentz wrote:
You just need to accept that the way GW games work now is that every year you (or one person in your group) needs to buy the update book.

GW has never had a "don't pay for rules" strategy. So this is not a dramatic change.

If neither you nor anybody you know is willing to pay less than the cost of 1 box of models for these annual rules then I guess... just play the older rules?

If you only play... I dunno... Harlequins... and don't want to pay the $20 for the rest of the book then maybe you can photocopy that one page?


Or you just split the cost. I mean between say 8 people thats like 2.50?


 
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




USA

 Silentz wrote:
If neither you nor anybody you know is willing to pay less than the cost of 1 box of models for these annual rules then I guess... just play the older rules?

This is spot on. This isn't an MMO where you have to pay a subscription to continue having access to play. Either play with the rules you have and enjoy the game or pony up for the tweaks and new content. This is how GW is going to conduct business for the foreseeable future, so if your club doesn't like it, take all that business to another game.

We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

I agree. Forcing players to buy yet another book on top of all the other books already required to play is just another layer of cash grabbing.

The idea that a company needs to patch stuff with more than just a FAQ is ridiculous and GW has tricked us into another codex essentially. When FFG releases a new wave of ships the FAQ is hot on their heels and it's always free. Think of it like a computer game, you wouldn't pay EA games for a patch to make your game play better. So why are we paying GW for game patches?

Luckily, we are not actually required to follow GWs rules and if your game group dislikes CA you can just ignore it and create your own patches for broken things.

The basic idea of CA is kind of cool, in theory, but it's a bit of a Hegelian dialectic. CA exists to update rules and apply patches. GW waffles over every decision and puts out power 3 Reapers with a fixed BS and a multipurpose weapon that slays infantry and mech. Yet Storm Guardians are still a handicap? You must use the codex and CA, no model no rules, unless you want to use the index which is an essential part of the long term plan, everyone should have the indices. But you must use your codex and CA for models that have rules. Also, hope you didn't like customizable kits because those are getting squatted. Oh and by the way, no model no rules. Tacs suck? Have some Aspect Marines then so we can sell you ten monopose models with the same guns and very little options.

Okay. Rant off.

It's your game group not GWs, they ought to be glad you're paying premium for their models and books to begin with. Run it however is most suitable for the players involved and feth GW.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





No one in my group had any real issue with it. Bought it, use the relevant parts and moved on - its no different than buying a new codex or something similar to me.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'd like to see them put points out for free, but I'm otherwise ok with it.
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




USA

 darkcloak wrote:
Think of it like a computer game, you wouldn't pay EA games for a patch to make your game play better. So why are we paying GW for game patches?

Uhh false. Warhammer is less like FIFA of even Call of Duty and more like World of Warcraft. With WoW, you buy the Expansion, where they do a massive overhaul of class abilities by adding/subtracting/tweaking and add content. After that, Blizzard does balance patches as needed. CA is equivalent to the expansion in the sense that it adds new content and does major overhauls to units/weapons/etc. The FAQ's are the free balance patches. No one playing WoW or any other MMO demands expansions be free every time a new one rolls out.

We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter in the Shadows





I think the prices should have been released in both free downloadable format and printed, with the cost of the book being reflected in its additional content.

However IMO chapter approved was well short of actual content. This should have been the book to carry the index players over until their release but was barely more than would be expected of a white dwarf article. They didn't even manage to cover all of the factions.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I would love to pay regularly for continuously updated, adjusted and rebalanced rules. But Chapter Approved was low effort job. I don't want to pay for something that half-assed.
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

mokoshkana wrote:
 darkcloak wrote:
Think of it like a computer game, you wouldn't pay EA games for a patch to make your game play better. So why are we paying GW for game patches?

Uhh false. Warhammer is less like FIFA of even Call of Duty and more like World of Warcraft. With WoW, you buy the Expansion, where they do a massive overhaul of class abilities by adding/subtracting/tweaking and add content. After that, Blizzard does balance patches as needed. CA is equivalent to the expansion in the sense that it adds new content and does major overhauls to units/weapons/etc. The FAQ's are the free balance patches. No one playing WoW or any other MMO demands expansions be free every time a new one rolls out.


I was using video games as an example, but you're free to make comparisons to other types of video games too. If you'd like to buy a new expansion every single year you're free to do that as well.

I just find it strange that self avowed model company is taking such pains to sell rules. Seems like rules ought to come secondary to making models, but GW would rather pay a printer to sell books than make sure all their kits came with enough basic weapons to build the unit.

And it puts unit performance into perspective now doesn't it? Some units are OP and some are fluff choice only. Thank goodness for CA because things can now be fixed without a codex! Or is this a clever ploy to push model sales by constantly changing the overall performance of given units in a yearly publication which the rules require for competition? For a model making company they sure seem to be able to push sales with rules quite well.

You can choose to engage with the game however you like, but let's not pretend that GW is invested in anything other than selling models with the game as a platform to facilitate that endeavor. If the time should come when even the most ridiculous idea seems like it will sell kits then GW will do it. Look at the track record and tell me this is a company you can trust. You can't.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





I just looked at my buddies, noted down the points changes and carried on. There was nothing in Chapter Approved that I desperately needed or even wanted.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Ah crapter approved the book of bad marketing and shattered dreams.

This crapter approved was, well crap. Not because of the contents but because of tge marketing. The promise of balance and the tool to hold people over until their codex arrives.

As for the missions, narrative and open play stuff i think they did a great job. I have zero interest but, it was a good bit of content.

Now if crapter approved evolves into the generals handbook in its next iteration great i am on board with crapter apprroved moving forward. If we end up with piss poor marketing the book, ya my amusement with GW will tank, hard. I don't want to bring a bloody book bag to play a game, if i need more than 3 books to play a game, heck more than 2 i am annoyed.

Book wise a (screw this index, for unprinted model crap) Codex and chapter approved is all that should be needed. The deck of mission cards i like as well. I know i am a sucker. The fact they need to errata or faq the books is questionable, good. but damn bro do you even QC? The typos say nah QC is for chumps.

Chapter approved moving forward needs to reprint the simple and advanced rules in the book, let the old books stay home. We are going to get campaign or expansion books down the road, so the fewer basic books we need to deal with the better. I would honestly rather see chapter approved evolve into the campaign books. Housing the new models, rules, and mission sets. And a usable points adjustment system that helps prevent screw ups because this currently is trash. I have seen 6 books already to make a bloody list, and that crap organization is beyond painful if you are checking that list. Seriously GW nice failure to be remotely user friendly.

My less than amused points aside.

I like the idea of chapter approved, i like the possibilities, the cost is a whatever, if your group ignores chapter approved, it is their choice. Personally It is the execution moving forward i am waiting to see before make up my mind. On if the idea is as good in practice as it sounds on paper. The first outting, well i call it crapter approved, need i say more?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/20 18:20:18


In war there is poetry; in death, release. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Wait for the next one. Who wants to bet GW doesn't include point cost changes of CA 1 so you need both CA1 AND CA2 to have all the point updates

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




United Kingdom

I was 90% happy with CA. The missions, rules updates and a rotating points updates makes this a worthwhile addition. I'll be happy to buy a yearly CA.

40k: Space Marines (Rift Wardens) - 8050pts.
T9A: Vampire Covenants 2060pts. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Piedmont N.C. of the usa

All points noted, and we have a copy of all rules and faqs at our club for in store use.

My personal issue is consistancy, i want to play by the same rules that any stranger who walks in plays by without having to hash out 3 hours of if and this and whats and dos and donts. I feel like i need an 30 page disclaimer of how i play 40k for my opponent to read before we can start a game. 7th had many outdated codexes but the rules were not in this kind of shambles where everyone uses different rules.

This mans personal problem is gws use of approved for marketing and then we also have that one guy that plays a loop hole army (buying the models that take advantage of a loop hole but then drops the army and buys all new models when that hole is closed and another opens up).

With how much 40k cost why does it have loop holes "the most playtested edition ever".

PEACE is a lie, there is only Passion,
through passion, I gain STRENGTH,
through strength, I gain POWER,
through power, I gain VICTORY through. victory, MY CHAINS are BROKEN.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think paying for a few models point cost changes which is what the majority of people need it for is problematic. This GW needs to address by releasing thier online army list creator with points included.

Rules being all over the place is starting to be another problem again like it was in 7th. Especially as we continue to get more and more biannual chapter approved type books, FAQs for each of those books and updated rules that change depending on which book was released last. I would like to see another index after all the codexs are done including all the data sheets and updated rules again all in one place. Codex specific rules such as relics, warlord traits, stratagems, chapter tactics can stay in the codex.

But I just want one book and a faq for a while.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





Get your phone and take a picture of the updated points in the back. Take a picture of your faction's updates, if you're still using an index.

There is no sane person that will get ass-mad at you for not wanting to spend that kind of money with two pages that you'll use.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Piedmont N.C. of the usa

Taking picture of the book is illegal dont let gw catch you. But yes i agree, we also have apps to keep a lot of information in.

But principle and consistancy are the biggest issues.

We cant start playing by our own rules or youll not be able to play with anybody else which is a problem i face. We see on average one new player come into our club each month and i want to be able to play with them if able. So bending and breaking the rules is not an option.

But getting curbstomped by the guy with the new broken unit spam list is horrible too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/20 21:07:20


PEACE is a lie, there is only Passion,
through passion, I gain STRENGTH,
through strength, I gain POWER,
through power, I gain VICTORY through. victory, MY CHAINS are BROKEN.

 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





vaurapung wrote:
Taking picture of the book is illegal dont let gw catch you. But yes i agree, we also have apps to keep a lot of information in.


I don't think it would matter anywhere but a GW store. And I've maybe encountered ONE GW store I could tolerate for more than 10 minutes. I don't play in them.

If anyone raises hell because you took a picture of updated points and two strategems, then that's the exact person you don't want to play with.

Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




absolutely 0 complaints from me. I've been hoping that they would frequently update rules and balance instead of waiting years. In order to support this (plus chapter approved has units/lore and missions so its not just an update) im more than happy to pay $30 every couple months (also the guys in my group that didn't want to pay simply just use mine when we play. If only WHFB had received updates like 40k is now it would still be around.
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





 Elbows wrote:
I just looked at my buddies, noted down the points changes and carried on. There was nothing in Chapter Approved that I desperately needed or even wanted.


Exactly what I did. If you don't care about any of the additional narrative stuff such as Planetstrike etc you can just snap a quick photo of the one page that would be relevant to your army.

Summaries of the point changes are available everywhere online as well.

"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Piedmont N.C. of the usa

The game should be balanced when the core rulebook hits the shelf, does anybody else feel that way?

I dont understand the defense for 8th when everyone has to have been curbstomped at somepoint already by a loophole player using list like punisher cannon lines, assassins, elysiums and so on.

My only complaint with 7th was that everyone got to use formations except me bc i didnt have all the models needed to even make a core.

PEACE is a lie, there is only Passion,
through passion, I gain STRENGTH,
through strength, I gain POWER,
through power, I gain VICTORY through. victory, MY CHAINS are BROKEN.

 
   
Made in au
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





vaurapung wrote:
The game should be balanced when the core rulebook hits the shelf, does anybody else feel that way?

I dont understand the defense for 8th when everyone has to have been curbstomped at somepoint already by a loophole player using list like punisher cannon lines, assassins, elysiums and so on.

My only complaint with 7th was that everyone got to use formations except me bc i didnt have all the models needed to even make a core.


Nice in theory, but there is no game system that will have a perfectly balanced rule book at release.

"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.

To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle


5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 |  
   
Made in gb
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard



UK

CA was garbage the landraider rules scenarios and other stuff were of zero interest and I'm not paying out for fixes, I already paid for the index it's not my fault gw messed up first time around.

There are other ways to access that data use em.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Piedmont N.C. of the usa

We all agree that there are other ways to access the data.

These post have showed me a few things.

Some people dont care and will play with what gw gives them.

Some people will alter what gw gives them and be happy.

Some people want gw to do their job right (we paid for this)

Some people will flat refuse to bend to gws mistakes by using pay for extra rules. If the rules were not good enough to be an errata they are not good enough to pay for.

Oir player that refises to play with chapter approved just started 40k 2 weeks ago. Has chose mechanized gaurd because he loves tank warfare and comes from a deep back ground in D&D.

He had dozen of books for 3.5 the difference in dnd vs what gw is doing though is that the core rules did not change, they were added to with each book. He refuses to play by gws rules where the rules change every 6 months. Its bad enoigh that in 5 years i myself have played through 3 editions. Getting curbstomped in every one for playing the models i love not the models that use every loop hole available.

PEACE is a lie, there is only Passion,
through passion, I gain STRENGTH,
through strength, I gain POWER,
through power, I gain VICTORY through. victory, MY CHAINS are BROKEN.

 
   
 
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