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Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

I never heard about any recriminations. Oh and I think you accidentally added an apostraphe in your title.

Fixed, the darn noodles took my attention!

Not really as far as I know. I don't see why they would though. That's like punishing the Imperial Fists for what they did at the Siege of Terra.

Not very much. If none.

The wolves where entirely loyal, and where the ones who joined thr drive to liberate tea during the siege.

There loyalty was never questioned much.

Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

Nope and this is a big issue for me in the background.

Gonna pre fix by saying that the Tsons deserved centure for breaking the edict, however as the plan was to turn the primarchs on each other from the start anyway, that's a moot point.

So on with my issue, Russ is a traitor, he may not have betrayed the emperor, but he betrayed his brother and through others actions, the imperium at large, we know that Horus was the one that set him on the sons, to kill, not capture, we know Russ was mistaken in thinking that Casper houser was an agent of Magnus, but in spite of all that, even after finding out he had been deceived and made a mistake, he still has a kill on sight order for the Tsons and Magnus, yhe whole space wolf thing of "I have seen my mistake and will be sure to correct it" is totally abandoned, rather than gather possible allies of the imperium and trying to fix his mistake, he compounds it, he betrayed his brother and deprived the imperium of much needed aid during the heresy.

This issue I hope is sorted out in the new book.

Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion. And all that they get is "Oh I guess Russ feels bad".

And they didn't participate on the battle of Terra is I remember right, got led all over the galaxy by Alpha Legion. So the Emps may have punished the wolves more harshly had he survived.

 jhe90 wrote:

Not very much. If none.

The wolves where entirely loyal, and where the ones who joined thr drive to liberate tea during the siege.

There loyalty was never questioned much.

Yeah, being loyal to the empire and doing bad things on accident when you thought you were doing the right thing doesn't ever cause you problems.

Oh wait.

 Formosa wrote:
Nope and this is a big issue for me in the background.

Gonna pre fix by saying that the Tsons deserved centure for breaking the edict, however as the plan was to turn the primarchs on each other from the start anyway, that's a moot point.

So on with my issue, Russ is a traitor, he may not have betrayed the emperor, but he betrayed his brother and through others actions, the imperium at large, we know that Horus was the one that set him on the sons, to kill, not capture, we know Russ was mistaken in thinking that Casper houser was an agent of Magnus, but in spite of all that, even after finding out he had been deceived and made a mistake, he still has a kill on sight order for the Tsons and Magnus, yhe whole space wolf thing of "I have seen my mistake and will be sure to correct it" is totally abandoned, rather than gather possible allies of the imperium and trying to fix his mistake, he compounds it, he betrayed his brother and deprived the imperium of much needed aid during the heresy.

This issue I hope is sorted out in the new book.

I agree, but it’s one of those little hypocritical things that technically matters on perspective and context. In Russ’ defense he can claim ignorance and he was, technically, following orders of a superior. Does that excuse him? Not really, but if his legion did in fact kill off one of the missing legions there’s precedent and perhaps that’s why he accepted the change without complaint. Magnus on the other hand, while good intentioned did disobey a superior in his case, while totally screwing up the Big E’s project. He also did it before the heresy kicked off, while Russ’ actions could have easily been muddled up enough through the chaos of the heresy, and the fact that the Thousand Sons ended up joining Horus (a self fulfilling prophecy but still true) that no one honestly cared about the details. Russ fought for the Emperor, Magnus didn’t, and after such a civil war why alienate the loyal forces you still have? Im not a big fan of the SW actions, but I can understand why things played out like they did.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

His plan to blunt there forces and buy Dorn etc time to prepare is not worst. But one legion vs a max of 7-9 is not the best odds at all.

Maybe a extra legion would have changed things and maybe forced a traitor change, and loyalist tactical change now having two defending legions of shock troops..

They may have been able to retake the second space port even.

I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

That's certainly the direction the Nu-Fluff is taking, unfortunately.

 Swiftblade wrote:
Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

They were neither punished nor tricked. They did the Emperor's bidding together with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Magnus was the one that was tricked. He was tricked by Tzeench into destroying the Emperor's webway.

pismakron wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

They were neither punished nor tricked. They did the Emperor's bidding together with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Magnus was the one that was tricked. He was tricked by Tzeench into destroying the Emperor's webway.

No, the Emperor's bidding was to BRING BACK Magnus to Terra. Horus intercepted the message and changed it into "break them down boi".

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

Space Wolf fluff in general is something of a confusing, contradictory, incomprehensible, and wholly unsatisfying mess. They can never decide what they want to be, half their fluff would immediately see other similar factions destroyed or subject to great censure, while the other half they're supposedly in charge of somehow unironically and unquestioningly delivering said censure for others doing the exact same thing.

Engrenages wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

They were neither punished nor tricked. They did the Emperor's bidding together with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Magnus was the one that was tricked. He was tricked by Tzeench into destroying the Emperor's webway.

No, the Emperor's bidding was to BRING BACK Magnus to Terra. Horus intercepted the message and changed it into "break them down boi".

to be fair, Valador must have agreed said order, so a Primarch and Emperors own senior body guard mounted the assault.
plus given the Heresey, a kill order probbly was not entirely out of phase for them to roill with it.

Wasn't Prospero sacked before the Heresy proper? Mind you, the Night Lords were AWOL, but they still responded to the call to purge the Legions waiting at Istvaan.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

The Nu-Fluff is leading us to believe that the Emperor sorta kinda planned the Heresy, as he wanted to get rid of the Primarchs and the Marines after they had 'done their job'. He just didn't think that it would get as out of hand as it all did, I guess?

 Alpharius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

The Nu-Fluff is leading us to believe that the Emperor sorta kinda planned the Heresy, as he wanted to get rid of the Primarchs and the Marines after they had 'done their job'. He just didn't think that it would get as out of hand as it all did, I guess?

That's just a bad way of killing them though. Every piece of new fluff about the Emperor seems to make him seem dumber and dumber. At this rate he'll cut off his own fingers picking up a sword.

The series as a whole has completely ruined the Heresy for me. I feel like even the few books that were good/great weren't worth the damage done to the overall story.

This idea of the Emperor intending for the Heresy to happen just sounds like bad damage control to me. GW realizes that they've written him to be a complete moron, so now they're just throwing out a "or is he?" with a sly wink hoping that it will somehow fix what they've done.

I don't think he intended the Heresy to happen. I think he was moreso planning on gradually culling the Legiones Astartes. I think the plan was that the blunt instruments were first, so the Night Lords, the World Eaters, and so on.

Nurglitch wrote:
I don't think he intended the Heresy to happen. I think he was moreso planning on gradually culling the Legiones Astartes. I think the plan was that the blunt instruments were first, so the Night Lords, the World Eaters, and so on.

Night lords and World eaters where already considered lost causes befoire even HH.

Russ tried to help Angron but he was too angry and lost to relise.

the Nightlords where already considered low grade legion, there use was useful but unlike say fists or iron warriors or ultras, they had no secondrey use.

Where was it said that the Emperor just wanted Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, but Horus tricked Russ into thinking the Emperor wanted Magnus dead?

It doesn't make any particular sense, does it? Why would the Emperor send Russ and sisters of silence and custodies just to bring Magnus back to Terra, instead of just telling Magnus to come back to Terra.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
It doesn't make any particular sense, does it? Why would the Emperor send Russ and sisters of silence and custodies just to bring Magnus back to Terra, instead of just telling Magnus to come back to Terra.

Magnus had just violated the Edict of Nikea and broken the Webway. Clearly the Emperor didn't trust him to do what he was told at that point.

Russ on the other hand was deemed loyal and trustworthy so he was told to bring his brother back. Unfortunately Horus messed with him and so a find and retrieve mission became hacky-stabby.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
It doesn't make any particular sense, does it? Why would the Emperor send Russ and sisters of silence and custodies just to bring Magnus back to Terra, instead of just telling Magnus to come back to Terra.

Magnus had just violated the Edict of Nikea and broken the Webway. Clearly the Emperor didn't trust him to do what he was told at that point.

Russ on the other hand was deemed loyal and trustworthy so he was told to bring his brother back. Unfortunately Horus messed with him and so a find and retrieve mission became hacky-stabby.

While taking Magnus back was the initial plan, I don't recall anything about them being told not to kill any Thousand Sons. It was very likely something along the lines of "Bring Magnus back, with any means necessary." The Talons of the Emperor were sent to further enforce that Russ wasn't just being a dick, that the full will of the Emperor was behind it. Plus the SoS would be useful vs the Sons for obvious reasons and well the Custodes are the Custodes. If Valdor, who held overall command, did nothing to countermand the fighting, clearly it was OK and not just something Horus cooked up to trick Russ into doing on the fly. Then again even if he didnt have Command, Valdor doing what he did still shows the Emperor's intent as Horus couldnt give him orders.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

 john27 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

No,Valdor was not involved in the War in the Webway. He was present at the Burning of Prospero.