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The tyranids have a psychic power called Paroxysm.

Part of it reads: "Until your next psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other units that are able to fight have done so."

Counter-Offensive is the strategem that allows a unit 'that is eligible to fight' to fight out of sequence. It's in the main rulebook.

There's 2 questions:

1. Can a unit be targeted by Counter-Offensive if it is affected by Paroxysm?
2. Can the unit fight via Counter-Offensive if it is affected by Paroxysm?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The full rule text for Paroxysm can be seen here:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/11/40k-tyranid-psychic-powers.html

The question here really comes down to how to interpret the word 'eligible' in the Counter Offensive stratagem.

The intention of the strat seems to be to allow one of your units to fight ahead of most enemy units in the enemy fight phase, even ahead of units that charged save the first one. If it didn't allow you to do this, to fight out of order, the stratagem would do precisely nothing. So eligible in this context cannot be referring to units that you could normally choose to fight with at that precise time, and instead to other constraints - the ones that jump to mind being the unit is within 1" of an enemy, and the unit has not yet fought this Fight phase.

A stickler for RAW might claim the strat simply does nothing though. As by a very strict reading a unit isn't eligible to fight unless you could choose it to fight without the strat. But I will continue under the assumption this isn't the case.

Establishing then that the stratagem ignores the normal fight order, I would allow that the strat bypasses the psychic power. However, I would concede the wording is ambiguous and therefore contentious, so I would happily roll off instead if this was a problem for my opponent.

That's a pretty fair assessment. It seems then that we're forced to look at RAI? In that case I would submit that paroxysm was intended to override the strategem. Otherwise it's only purpose would be completely negated every turn by a strategem that everyone has access to.

You might say that it's meant to deny a charging unit it's ability to fight first.... But again the strategem could completely deny this.

So it seems the intent is that a unit with Paroxysm can't fight until all other units have fought unless a rule specifically overides it. Paroxysm itself gives guidance on how it specifically interacts with abilities that allow a unit to fight first. That gives precedent that a strategem such as Counter Offensive would need wording that deals specifically with rules that force a unit to fight last.

 Zimko wrote:
That's a pretty fair assessment. It seems then that we're forced to look at RAI? In that case I would submit that paroxysm was intended to override the strategem. Otherwise it's only purpose would be completely negated every turn by a strategem that everyone has access to.

You might say that it's meant to deny a charging unit it's ability to fight first.... But again the strategem could completely deny this.

So it seems the intent is that a unit with Paroxysm can't fight until all other units have fought unless a rule specifically overides it. Paroxysm itself gives guidance on how it specifically interacts with abilities that allow a unit to fight first. That gives precedent that a strategem such as Counter Offensive would need wording that deals specifically with rules that force a unit to fight last.

Well, you can only use the stratagem after an enemy charging unit attacks. So, using it on a unit you anticipate charging you would work well. It could also be used to ensure a good combat order in a pre-existing combat.

Yup you're right.

Still we've only talked RAI so far. The RAW hasn't been addressed except what Stux said about Counter Offensive not workng at all.

Regarding your two questions: I think Stux is on the money about eligibility, you can't target the unit with the stratagem as they are not eligible to fight until everyone else has. Nothing in the stratagem bypasses the additional restriction placed by the psychic power.

Something interesting to consider is what would happen if you used this against a Slaanesh Daemon. The Quicksilver swiftness rule reads thusly: "This unit always fight first in the Fight phase, even if it didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place."

The daemon unit would have to fight both first and last! Personally I would resolve this through sequencing rules (first in my turn, last in yours), but I can also see a RAI argument for these two rules cancelling each other out.

The stratagem has the same issue simply overcoming the ''chargers go first'' rule in the BRB that it does with vs Paroxysm. If it works for one, it could work for the other.

The bit about Quicksiver Swiftness (and the like) is actually covered in the Paroxysm power that they negate one another and the unit behaves normally (like it didnt have either).

From my reading the only thing that over rides paroxysemn is anabilaty that lets you fight first. But from the way it is worded it would have to be an abilaty from the unit. Merly charging with a unit is affected with paroxysemn would not cansel it out. Likevice the fight first stratagem is not an abilaty.

I think banshesh mask lets you break it etc. (I do not know my eldar) things like that messes with paroxysmn. I think it is the same both raw and rai, although I don't put much stock in rai unless it is a quote from one of the authors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JakeSiren wrote:
Regarding your two questions: I think Stux is on the money about eligibility, you can't target the unit with the stratagem as they are not eligible to fight until everyone else has. Nothing in the stratagem bypasses the additional restriction placed by the psychic power.

Something interesting to consider is what would happen if you used this against a Slaanesh Daemon. The Quicksilver swiftness rule reads thusly: "This unit always fight first in the Fight phase, even if it didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place."

The daemon unit would have to fight both first and last! Personally I would resolve this through sequencing rules (first in my turn, last in yours), but I can also see a RAI argument for these two rules cancelling each other out.

paroxysmn has that senario covered if you read the un-abriviated version in the link.

To have proof and not just ramble the defenition of an abilaty is on page 13 of the simplefied rules, where they talk about datasheets. (Not sure what page that is in the big red book.) A stratagem is not an abilaty and can therefore not bypass paroxysemn unless the stratagem is worded that it grants abilaties. Counterbæoffensive is not worded like this.

The target is still eligible to fight, because eligible is just defined as being within 1" of an enemy in the fight phase. So you can use the stratagem.

My understanding is that you can use 2cp to interrupt, because it would essentially have the same effect as when it is already used - you are not allowed to fight, but the stratagem overrides this restriction.

Guys its not really a topic worth arguing about.

If paroxysm is cast on a unit, that unit swings after every other unit that can swing has swung, period.

The ONLY way you could possibly get around it, would be to make the opposing unit also swing last some way.

The only real discussion we can make here is if the interrupt stratagem can even target the unit that has paroxysm cast on it.

Since the unit HAS to swing last, is it no longer eligible to be picked for the stratagem, or can it still be picked because it is elegible to be chosen (since it hasnt fought yet) and thus wasting 2 CP (since it would still have to swing last).

Read how eligibility is defined in the rules.

The unit is still eligible, and therefore counter offensive would still work. Because eligibility isn't defined based on when a unit can fight, but whether or not it is ultimately able to fight.

The target unit swings last by normal order of operations - the counter offensive stratagem can (a) still be used and (b) doesn't have to do with altering the order by which units fight.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Guys its not really a topic worth arguing about.

If paroxysm is cast on a unit, that unit swings after every other unit that can swing has swung, period.

The ONLY way you could possibly get around it, would be to make the opposing unit also swing last some way.

The only real discussion we can make here is if the interrupt stratagem can even target the unit that has paroxysm cast on it.

Since the unit HAS to swing last, is it no longer eligible to be picked for the stratagem, or can it still be picked because it is elegible to be chosen (since it hasnt fought yet) and thus wasting 2 CP (since it would still have to swing last).

I agree with this take.

Okay, so via the rulebook FAQ:

''Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight
phase do they fight for the second time?
A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge. If the unit
did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did
charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with,
then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then
you can select your unit to fight with for the second
time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s
opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no
other eligible units to select to fight with).
Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence
of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive
Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes
ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first
and second ‘fight’. ''

We can see that Counter-Offensive can actually override the normal sequence of who ''fights first'' and therefore isn't as nearly useless as RAW would lead some to believe. If it can interrupt the priority of Chargers it could theoretically be used to bypass the the negative of Paroxysm during a turn in which they are charged and are in combat.

Goobi2 wrote:
Okay, so via the rulebook FAQ:

''Q: If a unit has an ability that allows it to fight twice in the
Fight phase (e.g. Berzerkers), at what point during the Fight
phase do they fight for the second time?
A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge. If the unit
did not charge this turn, then, after all units that did
charge have fought, you can select this unit to fight with,
then your opponent can select a unit to fight with, then
you can select your unit to fight with for the second
time (you need not consecutively use both of the unit’s
opportunities to fight – unless of course there are no
other eligible units to select to fight with).
Note that any rule that interrupts the normal sequence
of who fights first (such as the Counter-Offensive
Stratagem, or the Slaanesh Daemon Quicksilver Reflexes
ability) may be used to fight in between the unit’s first
and second ‘fight’. ''

We can see that Counter-Offensive can actually override the normal sequence of who ''fights first'' and therefore isn't as nearly useless as RAW would lead some to believe. If it can interrupt the priority of Chargers it could theoretically be used to bypass the the negative of Paroxysm during a turn in which they are charged and are in combat.

All of that is irrelevant. Because NONE of that is talking about a unit with a rule that requires that it cannot fight until after all other eligible units have fought. It's not a matter of fighting first. It's a mater of fighting LAST. Which means that unit is unable to be selected until that criteria has been met. All the units normally in a fight either get to fight first because they charged or are otherwise in the same pool of activations as everyone else because they are eligible to fight. The unit you are trying to use it is not eligible until all other units have fought.

To be fair, that reading of "eligibility" means Counter-Offensive does nothing at all, because a unit is unable to be selected until all chargers have fought.

So either counter-offensive does nothing ever or it allows you to override a Psychic Power, for 2 CP, once per phase, if you have CP left, with a single unit.

it does not override paroxysm, as paroxysm's only purpose is to stop a single unit from attacking until it is the last unit that can be selected.

Its a strength of ability thing.

Yes your spending CP for a stratagem, but it is an overreaching ability. It takes any unit, and lets them swing next.

Paroxysm is a single target, single purpose ability, that you have to successfully cast (and can be denied). Its only purpose is to make one select unit swing last in the fight phase. It does nothing else, can be resisted, and is very specific in what it does.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
it does not override paroxysm, as paroxysm's only purpose is to stop a single unit from attacking until it is the last unit that can be selected.

Its a strength of ability thing.

Yes your spending CP for a stratagem, but it is an overreaching ability. It takes any unit, and lets them swing next.

Paroxysm is a single target, single purpose ability, that you have to successfully cast (and can be denied). Its only purpose is to make one select unit swing last in the fight phase. It does nothing else, can be resisted, and is very specific in what it does.

So... you're saying that the stratagem doesn't override it because it's hard? Or what? What's your argument for "This unit fights before it is allowed to" not overriding "This unit fights last"?

 Lance845 wrote:


All of that is irrelevant. Because NONE of that is talking about a unit with a rule that requires that it cannot fight until after all other eligible units have fought. It's not a matter of fighting first. It's a mater of fighting LAST. Which means that unit is unable to be selected until that criteria has been met. All the units normally in a fight either get to fight first because they charged or are otherwise in the same pool of activations as everyone else because they are eligible to fight. The unit you are trying to use it is not eligible until all other units have fought.

All Paroxysm does is give the unit the lowest level of Priority*. Chargers go 1st and everyone else goes only after all chargers have attacked. Had 2 units simply charged one unit that was Paroxysm'd the effect would essentially be useless, since it was set to be last anyway. The Strategem can interrupt Chargers that have the same sort of wording protecting their Priority as any other unit not effected by Paroxysm. "Must go last" is not the type of wording used for Paroxysm. So, the Stratagem maintains its ability to usurp Priority and interrupt multiple charging units.



*Priority in this case equals initiative and/or goes 1st-ness.

My local TO is ruling that Counter Offensive still works so that's how I'll play it until an FAQ says otherwise. Thanks for the input.

 Zimko wrote:
My local TO is ruling that Counter Offensive still works so that's how I'll play it until an FAQ says otherwise. Thanks for the input.

This is the ruling i have seen as well.

Paroxysm is specific to unit abilities. Nothing in its wording suggests transcending that.

Goobi2 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


All of that is irrelevant. Because NONE of that is talking about a unit with a rule that requires that it cannot fight until after all other eligible units have fought. It's not a matter of fighting first. It's a mater of fighting LAST. Which means that unit is unable to be selected until that criteria has been met. All the units normally in a fight either get to fight first because they charged or are otherwise in the same pool of activations as everyone else because they are eligible to fight. The unit you are trying to use it is not eligible until all other units have fought.

All Paroxysm does is give the unit the lowest level of Priority*. Chargers go 1st and everyone else goes only after all chargers have attacked. Had 2 units simply charged one unit that was Paroxysm'd the effect would essentially be useless, since it was set to be last anyway. The Strategem can interrupt Chargers that have the same sort of wording protecting their Priority as any other unit not effected by Paroxysm. "Must go last" is not the type of wording used for Paroxysm. So, the Stratagem maintains its ability to usurp Priority and interrupt multiple charging units.



*Priority in this case equals initiative and/or goes 1st-ness.

But it's NOT "activate last" or "lowest priority". You are simplifying it and loosing the meaning in the process. It's CANNOT fight UNTILL ALL OTHER have fought.

Cannot and all other are very definitive statements. The unit has a rule from paraxism that gives it extra stipulations to be eligible to be chosen to fight. Not just be within 1", but also everyone else has to be chosen first.

 Lance845 wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


All of that is irrelevant. Because NONE of that is talking about a unit with a rule that requires that it cannot fight until after all other eligible units have fought. It's not a matter of fighting first. It's a mater of fighting LAST. Which means that unit is unable to be selected until that criteria has been met. All the units normally in a fight either get to fight first because they charged or are otherwise in the same pool of activations as everyone else because they are eligible to fight. The unit you are trying to use it is not eligible until all other units have fought.

All Paroxysm does is give the unit the lowest level of Priority*. Chargers go 1st and everyone else goes only after all chargers have attacked. Had 2 units simply charged one unit that was Paroxysm'd the effect would essentially be useless, since it was set to be last anyway. The Strategem can interrupt Chargers that have the same sort of wording protecting their Priority as any other unit not effected by Paroxysm. "Must go last" is not the type of wording used for Paroxysm. So, the Stratagem maintains its ability to usurp Priority and interrupt multiple charging units.



*Priority in this case equals initiative and/or goes 1st-ness.

But it's NOT "activate last" or "lowest priority". You are simplifying it and loosing the meaning in the process. It's CANNOT fight UNTILL ALL OTHER have fought.

Cannot and all other are very definitive statements. The unit has a rule from paraxism that gives it extra stipulations to be eligible to be chosen to fight. Not just be within 1", but also everyone else has to be chosen first.

Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

Quote and page number please where it specifically says they cannot fight until all chargers have, and not just a basic rule determining which units can be chosen to fight and in which order.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

Quote and page number please where it specifically says they cannot fight until all chargers have, and not just a basic rule determining which units can be chosen to fight and in which order.

What's the difference?

"Everyone X must fight first" is the same thing as saying "Everyone Y cannot fight first" when the options are X and Y. I can lay it out in a logical format for you, if you like, with premises and a conclusion. I just thought it was obvious.

Let's deconstruct this stratagem.

Counter-offensive: This stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Look at the criteria for use:

After a charging model has fought. So after you nominate a charging unit, this stratagem can be used.

Let's look at the criteria to select a unit:
Select one of your own eligible units. Does this apply to a paroxysm unit?

From the fight rules:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
This includes all units, not just those controlled by the
player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn
fight first.."

So the unit has models within 1" so it is eligible to fight and therefore can be targeted by the stratagem.

And now the operation on the unit:
fight with it next. It doesn't say anything about the unit's priority in the fight phase, which is what paroxysm affects. It simply instructs you to fight with it immediately.

There is nothing in paroxysm that transcends the normal order of operations. Since this stratagem functions outside of these operations by the way it is defined, it can be used to full effect.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

Quote and page number please where it specifically says they cannot fight until all chargers have, and not just a basic rule determining which units can be chosen to fight and in which order.

As opposed to an advanced rule that "just" modifies in which order units can fight, like both Paroxysm and Counter-Offensive??

Even if it fights last after the modification from Paroxysm, it is still a unit that's eligible to fight according to how this is defined in the basic rules (within 1" of an enemy), and therefore can use the Counter-Offensive stratagem.



*****

For some reason, I suspect that when this gets FAQ'd we'll get a rehash of the 3rd/4th edition of the Eldar problem of Runes of Warding vs Runes of Witnessing, and they end up saying the two cancel each other out and the unit attacks normally, despite there being no RAW indication that it should work this way.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

Quote and page number please where it specifically says they cannot fight until all chargers have, and not just a basic rule determining which units can be chosen to fight and in which order.

What's the difference?

"Everyone X must fight first" is the same thing as saying "Everyone Y cannot fight first" when the options are X and Y. I can lay it out in a logical format for you, if you like, with premises and a conclusion. I just thought it was obvious.

If you can't tell the difference then there's no point in continuing the discussion.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

Quote and page number please where it specifically says they cannot fight until all chargers have, and not just a basic rule determining which units can be chosen to fight and in which order.

What's the difference?

"Everyone X must fight first" is the same thing as saying "Everyone Y cannot fight first" when the options are X and Y. I can lay it out in a logical format for you, if you like, with premises and a conclusion. I just thought it was obvious.

But paroxysm does not say "Everyone Y cannot fight first" It says it Cannot fight until <criteria>" Paroxysm applies a strict set of limitations on when that unit can be selected. You're simplifying it in a way that looses it's meaning.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's deconstruct this stratagem.

Counter-offensive: This stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Look at the criteria for use:

After a charging model has fought. So after you nominate a charging unit, this stratagem can be used.

Let's look at the criteria to select a unit:
Select one of your own eligible units. Does this apply to a paroxysm unit?

From the fight rules:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
This includes all units, not just those controlled by the
player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn
fight first.."

So the unit has models within 1" so it is eligible to fight and therefore can be targeted by the stratagem.

And now the operation on the unit:
fight with it next. It doesn't say anything about the unit's priority in the fight phase, which is what paroxysm affects. It simply instructs you to fight with it immediately.

There is nothing in paroxysm that transcends the normal order of operations. Since this stratagem functions outside of these operations by the way it is defined, it can be used to full effect.

Except Paroxysm DOES say something about it's priority in the fight phase. It says it CANNOT fight until ALL OTHER units that can fight have done so. Which means until that criteria has been met, it is not eligible. You cannot actually target the paroxismed unit with the stratagem because IT'S criteria for being eligible to fight has not been met.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit's that charge have criteria for being eligible.

Be within1" or 1" of 1".

Units that did not charge ALSO have the same criteria for being eligible.

Once the fighting starts units that charged have the benefit of getting selected to fight first. But the units that did not charge are still eligible to fight because they still meet their criteria for fighting.

Paroxism doesn't change priority in the way that charging does by granting them an extra permission. It changes priority by adding to the criteria to be eligible to fight. Which, until that criteria is met, means the unit is not eligible. Which means it is not a valid target for the stratagem.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Curiously enough, a unit cannot fight until all the chargers have fought first either.

Do you let Counter Offensive work to interrupt between charging units?

Quote and page number please where it specifically says they cannot fight until all chargers have, and not just a basic rule determining which units can be chosen to fight and in which order.

What's the difference?

"Everyone X must fight first" is the same thing as saying "Everyone Y cannot fight first" when the options are X and Y. I can lay it out in a logical format for you, if you like, with premises and a conclusion. I just thought it was obvious.

But paroxysm does not say "Everyone Y cannot fight first" It says it Cannot fight until <criteria>" Paroxysm applies a strict set of limitations on when that unit can be selected. You're simplifying it in a way that looses it's meaning.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's deconstruct this stratagem.

Counter-offensive: This stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Look at the criteria for use:

After a charging model has fought. So after you nominate a charging unit, this stratagem can be used.

Let's look at the criteria to select a unit:
Select one of your own eligible units. Does this apply to a paroxysm unit?

From the fight rules:

"Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an
enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.
This includes all units, not just those controlled by the
player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn
fight first.."

So the unit has models within 1" so it is eligible to fight and therefore can be targeted by the stratagem.

And now the operation on the unit:
fight with it next. It doesn't say anything about the unit's priority in the fight phase, which is what paroxysm affects. It simply instructs you to fight with it immediately.

There is nothing in paroxysm that transcends the normal order of operations. Since this stratagem functions outside of these operations by the way it is defined, it can be used to full effect.

Except Paroxysm DOES say something about it's priority in the fight phase. It says it CANNOT fight until ALL OTHER units that can fight have done so. Which means until that criteria has been met, it is not eligible. You cannot actually target the paroxismed unit with the stratagem because IT'S criteria for being eligible to fight has not been met.

Please provide a page reference and a quotation to show that fighting last but still being able to fight disqualifies a unit from being an eligible unit as per the the Battle Primer's rules for what an eligible unit is.

Saying you can't target it because of its criteria for being eligible is like saying a non-charging unit can not be targeted with counter-offiensive becuase it's not eligible to attack until after all charging units have gone.

I cannot provide evidence for a negative. Evidence for a negative does not exist. Nothing says that "units that did not charge cannot fight until" Which is why they CAN be targeted with the stratagem. Paroxysm specifically says the "unit CANNOT fight" which is why it can't.