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Even though I've got very little room for anything new, I've been thinking about getting some kind of Imperial or Space Marine fleet to thematically counter my Chaos fleet. Said Chaos fleet is as follows:

42 Escorts (9 Infidel, 33 Iconoclast)
9 Cruisers (2 Carnage, 2 Murder, 2 Slaughter, Acheron, Hades, Styx)

I don't know about how well they do in game, but, for a campaign, the fleet seems like it would be a fast raiding group focused on hitting convoys and the occasional small base. I want to base my Imperial or Space Marine fleet around countering it. What should I get? What would the Imperium send to counter a force like that?

Probably a lot of Carriers - Bombers should prove quite capable against the Escort class.

I'd also expect to see a lot of general Ordnance, like Torpedoes. With that many Escorts, forcing them to break formation can create a serious headache for the opposing Admiral - your guns matter not one jot if you can't manoeuvre!

Possibly various Light Cruisers as well - firepower of an escort squadron in a single ship, better to get in amongst the disrupted enemy, and give them a good pasting close up.

I think assault boats are even better than bombers against escorts. 2+ to kill them and no roll to hit.

Honestly can't remember. Haven't played in yonks!

I'd focus my Cruisers on their Styx in the early game - see if I can't cripple his only launch bays. I mean, It won't matter a great deal if I can't, because he'd be utterly swamped with my own Ordnance. But no reason not to make it incredibly easy on yourself!

Wave of Torpedoes to break up formations/do early damage. Then in with Assault Boats/Bombers to do serious damage.

At that point, he can either rely solely on his turrets, or risk turning firepower on the Ordnance. Either one is a difficult prospect - all the time he's swatting your tiddlers, he's not smashing up your main fleet. But ignore them, and you could play absolute havoc.

Ordnance spam is generally viewed at Chaos' strength, not the Imperials. The Imperial strength is in lances and the Imperial Prow.

All my Imperial cruisers have the Imperial Prow armed with torpedoes. Their broadside weapons are all short range, so you need to get in close. Advance behind the prow, at 30cm you launch torpedoes, then get in close and Lock On.

Always go in pairs, either two Lunas or one Tyrant and one Gothic. You need those Lances to burn through Blast Markers.

Get in there and mix it up. But a smart Chaos player will use speed and long range weapons to keep out of the scrum. I much prefer a cruiser heavy, battery heavy fleet Chaos myself. But like you, I have an Imperial fleet as my nemesis. I also have an ordnance spam Chaos fleet, but so does everyone else.

One way to think of this is not how would the Imperium counter your chaos fleet in a straight up fight, but what would they need to counter it in a long campaign.

The chaos fleet is set up to raid and harass, essentially a guerrilla force. That means the IN has to be on defense trying to protect the countless convoys and vital shipments throughout the sector.

So I'd recommend escorts (swords and Firestorms more than Cobras) and light cruisers (Vanguard has some nice ones, http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/product-category/battlegroup-helios/) with a focus on Defiant carriers. They'd need a lot of fighters and bombers to scout and cover ground.

Then maybe a small core of cruisers or a battleship that roams the sector trying to engage the chaos force in a straight up fight.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
One way to think of this is not how would the Imperium counter your chaos fleet in a straight up fight, but what would they need to counter it in a long campaign.

The chaos fleet is set up to raid and harass, essentially a guerrilla force. That means the IN has to be on defense trying to protect the countless convoys and vital shipments throughout the sector.

So I'd recommend escorts (swords and Firestorms more than Cobras) and light cruisers (Vanguard has some nice ones, http://vanguardminiatures.co.uk/product-category/battlegroup-helios/) with a focus on Defiant carriers. They'd need a lot of fighters and bombers to scout and cover ground.

Then maybe a small core of cruisers or a battleship that roams the sector trying to engage the chaos force in a straight up fight.

Well, I got a bit of a start with 1 pack each of Cobras, Firestorms, and Swords, a Dictator, Dominator, Mars, and a battleship which I'm thinking of either making an Emperor or Retribution. I kinda maxed out on what I can storage space I could afford to set aside for BFG, so I'll start there and get some more Light Cruisers and Escorts when I can get better storage.

STOP!!

Do you have a fleet. BFG is costing silly money to get into yet there are very reliable rumours that GW is relaunching it.

Can you wait until end of year if you havent?

I dont want to hear you are like one of the guys who bought Space Hulk on eBay for several hundred dollars a couple of weeks before the new print run was announced.


The Chaos fleet you listed is not that well optimised, and BFG is a game of rock paper scissors. I am keeping in mind here that the chaos fleet is your fleet and thus you want an Imperial fleet for a fair and interesting match rather than a list set up to destroy it. Iconoclasts are not that great and while you can get mileage out of them that is problematic, chaos fleets do better with capital ships, their ships are better though less role focused than Imperial. It would be very easy to design an Imperial fleet which would beat it.

So I would not make an Imperial carrier fleet as it would annihilate what the Chaos forces you have (Grotsnik's advice was solid) . This chaos fleet only has one carrier so I would match that and be fair. Choose Dictator or Mars, you could take both so long as you stop there.

I would match but equal chaos by going Dauntless heavy with Swords and Cobras, four Dauntless is optimal, three with lances one with torpedoes. I would go for about ten of each escort. The bulk of your fleet heavy assets should be Lunars, spam them, three or four is not excessive. It will have an Imperium theme, large numbers of small range of variants for the most part. Think of Lunars (and Dauntlesses) like Leman Russ, you don't see one, you see a formation of them. Add a Dictator or Mars and an Overlord and one or two Dominators. I would try and fit in a Battleship if I could.

Really what your collection needs right now is a Despoiler first, it would round out your chaos nicely and fill the hole at the top. Damn good ship too.

If Imperials then take two Dictators, a Mars and a Retribution for their battleship you would have balance but not symmetry and your fleet would get interesting.

Chaos
+Despoiler (you can stop there)

Imperial
+Retribution
+Overlord
+Mars
+Dominator
+2 Dictators
+3 Lunars (you could save money buy adding another paid of Lunars and cutting down number of escorts bought).
+torpedo Dauntless
+3 lance Dauntless
+6 12 Sword
+9-12 Cobra (sold in packs of three now,

Now to answer the other responders.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Probably a lot of Carriers - Bombers should prove quite capable against the Escort class.

I'd also expect to see a lot of general Ordnance, like Torpedoes. With that many Escorts, forcing them to break formation can create a serious headache for the opposing Admiral - your guns matter not one jot if you can't manoeuvre!

Possibly various Light Cruisers as well - firepower of an escort squadron in a single ship, better to get in amongst the disrupted enemy, and give them a good pasting close up.

This would be very good advice, but I think the OP is hostiing. With hosting you need to provide both forces and invite a guest opponent. That Chaos fleet is the wrong fleet for hosting, hosting is best done when you have a mix of everything so the guest can make up a force in several different ways.

 Flinty wrote:
I think assault boats are even better than bombers against escorts. 2+ to kill them and no roll to hit.

You need an Emperor class battleship to take Sharks. Now the Emperor is a good investment it would be very unfair to load up this way. They also sell for silly money.

phydaux wrote:
Ordnance spam is generally viewed at Chaos' strength, not the Imperials. The Imperial strength is in lances and the Imperial Prow.

I see where you are getting this idea from but it is wrong on many levels.

Chaos strength is firepower, Imperial strength is focus.

Ordance in terms of carrier assets belongs to both factions, both can have carrier heavy forces, chaos tend to have more but dont actually have any notable advantage in this regard.
Ordance in terms of torpedoes is heavily in favour of the Imperium, overall the Imperium has considerably more ordnance options and volume of assets.
Ordnance appears to favour chaos because most Chaos players dont know what to do with the ships they have available and tend towards carrier spam as it is the most obvious answer.

As for lances, Chaos have more and they have them with longer ranges and on cheaper ships. The 6+ prow is important but it isn't the prime reason why Imperial capital ships cost more points for less guns and less range.

phydaux wrote:

All my Imperial cruisers have the Imperial Prow armed with torpedoes. Their broadside weapons are all short range, so you need to get in close. Advance behind the prow, at 30cm you launch torpedoes, then get in close and Lock On.

This is essentially true. Imperial strength is focus, what I mean by this is that Imperials maneuver to their design. They are not designed as individual ships but as ships supporting each other in fixed formation doctrines. First the Imperial ships form up line abreast face their enemy and advance while sheltered behind their prows and firing torpedoes and nova cannon (and lances of battlecruisers and higher). Then at range band thirty, they turn in formation to line astern for broadside engagement. They only have 30cm range broadsides because they only need 30cm range broadsides (ranges beyond that ave targeting penalties). Everything about the Imperial fleet's operation is built into the design, this is why they are easier to play once you see the synergy and how they beat cheaper faster and better armed ships of the Chaos fleet, which in turn have to be more creative in order to make use of their supposed advantages.
Focus is everything, focus helps the Imperials win. The learning curve with Chaos is long and steep because the ships are designed as individual fighting platforms and are better in that role. Ironically they play very much like Federation do in Star Trek games, no fancy abilities, just decent spaceworthy vessels with effective efficient standard armament - Planet Killer excepting.

phydaux wrote:

Always go in pairs, either two Lunas or one Tyrant and one Gothic. You need those Lances to burn through Blast Markers.

I will refine that into, always mass your Imperial cruisers into line formation. I do firmly agree that Lunars are superior to Tyrant and Gothics. You can afford one of either of the latter tops. Because Imperials have a formation based fleet they need lances and batteries right along the line, because you cant afford to try and maneuver specific ships for specific goals, except Dauntless and they play differently and are there to support the cruiser line with flexibility. So for your line cruisers every ship need to be the right ship, and that only works with generalists. If you try and specialise line cruisers expect the opponent to exploit. there are exceptions, Dictators are needed for carrier support, but interspace them between Lunars, Dominators are the cheapest nova cannon you can field, if you take one interspace it between Lunars. If you take both having a Gothic between them restores the balance of firepower along the line. Imperial cruisers move like wallowing pigs, so you need to pln out where you want to set up your line of advance and your line broadside turn on the battlespace and then stick with your plan. Any deviation halves your firepower at best, at worst you only get one or two ships able to bear arc and having to use maneuver orders to do so, or forfeiting even that on a failed maneuver. They are the wagon train, not the Sioux, you have to know where you want them to be, find a realistic attack vector to get there and not be tempted into maneuvering beyond your plans.

phydaux wrote:

Get in there and mix it up. But a smart Chaos player will use speed and long range weapons to keep out of the scrum. I much prefer a cruiser heavy, battery heavy fleet Chaos myself. But like you, I have an Imperial fleet as my nemesis. I also have an ordnance spam Chaos fleet, but so does everyone else.

Chaos fleets tend to have three options for capital ships, though you can mix those options and blend.
1. Slaughter heavy - Slaughters are cheap have lots of guns but only 30cm range, they are also fast. With Slaughters you need to back them up with escorts and slaughters, or carrier support from a second formation, anything else is just an anchor to your speed or a waste of the other assets range.
2. Murder/Hades heavy - 60cm lances. Let the lap dogs of the false emperor know what you think of their pretty aquila prows. when you have done enough damage and the enemy is in range 30 ready for broadside you turn and match them, if you know how to evade torpedoes you likely will be up on damage when the broadside action is joined.
3. Devastations - Line astern formation at long range, 60cm lances and carrier spam. Not the win button it appears because reload ordnance interferes with lock on and your firepowerr is dribbled out with travel time. In early days with unlimited carrier launch this was the go to way to play Chaos. Devastations are still very workable as support to other elements rather than as the main force.

All three elements can be combined if you like to various degrees and different special ships like the battleships, Styx and Acheron come into play as individuals that you can fit in to support any play style.

As for escorts. Imperial capital ships are more expensive and weaker, Chaos escorts have the same problem. All in all this makes them even. Chaos raiders cost more for secondary features unnecessary for thei prime role Firestorms are better than Idolators because they have the lance and no frills, Cobras are better than Infidel as they launch torpedoes for less. Swords are better than Iconoclasts as they take take hits better.
That being said Chaos escorts are still useful. I wouldnt bother with Idolators at all, though its ok to have a couple for theme. Iconoclasts while inferior do work but are cheap enough for spare points and do have value, try to get into stern arcs and be a nuisance.

Infidel are the only Chaos raider work investing in. While I do say Cobras are better because they send as many torpedoes for substantially less cost this is true from an Imperial point of view. The Infidel can do the worm of a Cobra yet have a 5+ hull and enough battery strength to do the work of Swords. Torpedo escorts perform best in large formations because large torpedo salvoes are worth far more than the equal volume of smaller ones. Large flotillas of Cobras are nasty, but their support firepower is an afterthought, a large flotilla of Infidel however is far more resilient and the firepower adds up to somethign far more useful. Infidel are on my recommended list for any Chaos player.

Please remmember here thet the best use of ordanace is in combining torpedo and attack craft against single targets to overload defences. Imperials can do this fairly easily, and will try such in the first maneuver stage if they can. The Dictator can even achieve this on its own without support, which makes it an exceptionally dangerous ship. Chaos however lack torpedoes for the most part, and those ships that have them dont have enough to make a difference and often have to point thier prows in an inopportune direction. Infidels are key here, they can sweep in and launch a large torpedo swarm as your bombers are nearing their targets.

 Orlanth wrote:
STOP!!

Do you have a fleet. BFG is costing silly money to get into yet there are very reliable rumours that GW is relaunching it.

Can you wait until end of year if you havent?

I dont want to hear you are like one of the guys who bought Space Hulk on eBay for several hundred dollars a couple of weeks before the new print run was announced.


The Chaos fleet you listed is not that well optimised, and BFG is a game of rock paper scissors. I am keeping in mind here that the chaos fleet is your fleet and thus you want an Imperial fleet for a fair and interesting match rather than a list set up to destroy it. Iconoclasts are not that great and while you can get mileage out of them that is problematic, chaos fleets do better with capital ships, their ships are better though less role focused than Imperial. It would be very easy to design an Imperial fleet which would beat it.

So I would not make an Imperial carrier fleet as it would annihilate what the Chaos forces you have (Grotsnik's advice was solid) . This chaos fleet only has one carrier so I would match that and be fair. Choose Dictator or Mars, you could take both so long as you stop there.

I would match but equal chaos by going Dauntless heavy with Swords and Cobras, four Dauntless is optimal, three with lances one with torpedoes. I would go for about ten of each escort. The bulk of your fleet heavy assets should be Lunars, spam them, three or four is not excessive. It will have an Imperium theme, large numbers of small range of variants for the most part. Think of Lunars (and Dauntlesses) like Leman Russ, you don't see one, you see a formation of them. Add a Dictator or Mars and an Overlord and one or two Dominators. I would try and fit in a Battleship if I could.

Really what your collection needs right now is a Despoiler first, it would round out your chaos nicely and fill the hole at the top. Damn good ship too.

If Imperials then take two Dictators, a Mars and a Retribution for their battleship you would have balance but not symmetry and your fleet would get interesting.

Chaos
+Despoiler (you can stop there)

Imperial
+Retribution
+Overlord
+Mars
+Dominator
+2 Dictators
+3 Lunars (you could save money buy adding another paid of Lunars and cutting down number of escorts bought).
+torpedo Dauntless
+3 lance Dauntless
+6 12 Sword
+9-12 Cobra (sold in packs of three now,

I appreciate your concern about cost and the stuff I've bought being outdated. Getting better storage is going to take awhile (possibly past the end of this year) as I'm living in a small place and have a laundry list of things I need to paint up before starting on my BFG stuff.

The real reason I got started collecting BFG was that I got a 30k Thousand Sons army and, while browsing eBay one day, saw a huge amount of Chaos Escorts. I've been building my fleet around those escorts and what kind of fleet would have an inordinate amount of them. I added Imperials as I like their aesthetics and wanted something to combat the Chaos fleet.

Fortunately, unless they radically change the scaling, I'm pretty sure I can still field the stuff I have. If I can field my stuff, I will, even if the aesthetics are outdated. I'm the kind of guy who bought a squad of 1st edition beakie Space Marines to use as Scouts. If the scale change is too radical, I'm okay with selling a bunch and keeping a few as decorations.

I thank you for the suggestions on what to get once I can get more ships. Am I correct in assuming that the Imperial list is what to get on top of what I have? Would that mean two Battleships?

Arcanis161 wrote:

I appreciate your concern about cost and the stuff I've bought being outdated. Getting better storage is going to take awhile (possibly past the end of this year) as I'm living in a small place and have a laundry list of things I need to paint up before starting on my BFG stuff.

If you can afford it, well its your money to spand as you please. I bought Empire knights, I didnt pay silly money for them, but i did have to fork out over the retail price to get them, but wanted them so...
I would honestly wait and see if there is a release schedule for the new BFG.

Arcanis161 wrote:

The real reason I got started collecting BFG was that I got a 30k Thousand Sons army and, while browsing eBay one day, saw a huge amount of Chaos Escorts. I've been building my fleet around those escorts and what kind of fleet would have an inordinate amount of them. I added Imperials as I like their aesthetics and wanted something to combat the Chaos fleet.

If you get deals on ebay you get deals. It changes the advice a little, and with large deals you end up with what the original purchaser had. Now most platersare capital ship heavy because the plastic capital ships were the core of most fleets, Eldar were always escort heavy though and some players took the game to mean it should play more like Epic and less like Titan Legions. People would not usually play Epic with ten titans and a handful of tanks, but would happily field ten cruisers and a handful of escorts. It amounts to the same thing. Some people thing BFG should be like most miniatures games from GW, and lot of 1 wound models and one or two multi wound models.
I see fleet displays of thirty escorts around a cruiser or two as often as I see a line of cruisers with one or two escort squadrons. It is a matter of personal taste.

Arcanis161 wrote:

Fortunately, unless they radically change the scaling, I'm pretty sure I can still field the stuff I have. If I can field my stuff, I will, even if the aesthetics are outdated. I'm the kind of guy who bought a squad of 1st edition beakie Space Marines to use as Scouts. If the scale change is too radical, I'm okay with selling a bunch and keeping a few as decorations.

From the limited info we have, which amount to BFG ships in the background of Gw release cabinets highlighting other things, the new game will be a continuation of the old. GW is unlikely o make the scaling compatible, you will very likely be ble to use your existing fleet and anything else you buy with new BFG. New BFG will just likely be cheaper

Arcanis161 wrote:

I thank you for the suggestions on what to get once I can get more ships. Am I correct in assuming that the Imperial list is what to get on top of what I have? Would that mean two Battleships?

I have two battleships and back in the day I did recommend doing that. However I recommend for now you try and get one Chaos and one Imperial batleship, or wait and buy later. Your Chaod fleet has a Despoiler shaped hole in it, its the quickest way to fix that fleet.

I'm not sure I'd advise waiting for a new BFG. There's no guarantee it will happen, much less soon. We've only heard vague things about SG wanting to do it and maybe HH era and a change in ship sizes. No prototypes, no rule rumors, no real news.

SG already has Blood Bowl and Necromunda to support with Titan Legions due later this year. Not sure we'd see anything before 2019.

As for cost, I really recommend checking Vanguard for some good ships at really good prices. Shapeways is also an option but most of what I see is as expensive, if not more, than ebay.

We don't even know yet when the new Adeptus Titanicus will be out, let alone Battlefleet Heresy.

Orlanth,

I like just about everything you posted, except for sending in the Imperial cruisers Line Abreast. I like sending them in pairs, prow toward the enemy, in Echelon. Then, depending on how the enemy maneuvers, a 45 degree turn puts them either Echalon or Line Astern with their broadside toward the enemy. The only time you should need to juggle speeds is if they are Echelon Right and need to turn right, or vice versa.

My Chaos firepower fleet is Carnage heavy. I also run them in pairs, Echalon formation, and try to start perpendicular to the enemy's line of attack. Then I use speed and long range to harry the enemy, circling 45 degrees at a time and using Lock On every turn.

A "smart" opponent will use Come To New Heading to cut the corner and get in my rear arc. That's why I try to send mutually supporting squadrons circling in opposite directions.

Interesting tactic, but one I disagree with.

An echelon formation as you described would have to slope back at about 45 degrees to have the effect you want. This will place too many ships outside of range if not arc. Imperials need concentration of power and that is best achieved with a single line.

As for the flank weakness, that is part of the reason you have Dauntless, and the enemy cannot guess which flank will become rear arc when you turn for broadside engagement because the line abreast formation should be free to align in either direction.

I wouldn't circle Imperial capital ships, any circle wide enough will bleed out effective weapons range, any circle too small will result in too many ships in close proximity which is not good when one or two get hulked.

As for having multiple supporting lines, or worse circles to cover mutual rear arcs. That is a recipe for a mess and the crossing formations will cause too many ships to be too close to each other, which can be exploited.

Exploding hulks will always be a problem, with a line formation one exploding capital ship will damage the two next to it, that cannot be avided if concentration of fire of your own is to be achieved.

As for deploying capital ships in pairs. I ask if this is regards to squadroning. Imperials can make use of squadroning by pairing weak crews with better crews, and it is good for any squadron with attack craft. However squadroning also allows matched all ahead full orders and formation turns.

Imperial capital ships should never make maneuver special orders except in dire need. They move too simply and slowly to exceed planning and their maneuver vectors should be planned from the outset.

There are exceptions for Dauntless, I would squadron Duntless with lances in threes, any solo Dauntless should carry torpedoes. The reason for this is firepower potential, three lances will not do much on their own and Dauntless often have to fight alone covering blindspots. Torpedoes have much higher potential and don't automatically drop two hits due to shields. Conversely three Dauntless has a reliable volume of fire and should be lance armed.

Either formation type, budget or full deployment is there to cover weakspots. Do not be tempted into deploying them easily as force multiplier. Dauntless are vulnerable and should not be forced to do what your line cruisers do and if you engage too early they might be out of position for where you really want them.

The other capital assets you want to handle seperately are Emperor class battleships. Place one behind your line and advace it at 45 degrees diagonal to the line of advance, look at its drift so you know it can move 10cm a turn and not have to deal with any celestial phenomena.
Always assume you will NEVER get the opportunity to turn it without special orders.

This will have the following effects.
1. By being behind lines and at 45 degrees to the line you will always remain behind the line.
2. The Emperor will not present a prow facing to opponents through the line, but will only to one side.
3. The opposite end of the line is where the ships broadside (and turret) firepower is concentrated.

You can form a Maltese cross formation with an overlord battlecruiser. You could use a Retribution but it is wasteful to do so. Form the Overlord at 90 degrees to the Emperor, 45 degrees to the line on a mirror vector. Again deploy it so it can drift 10cm a turn and never encounters celestial phenomena. Arrange its vector so the Emperor and Overlord cross each others paths about turn 2-4.
Observe the fire arcs of the two vessels, they form a rough Maltese cross of 60cm batteries. This is Eldar b-gone and your primary defence option against that faction. Corral your other vessels around the long range pair. Against other opponents the Overlord and Emperor cover the two opposite ends of the cruiser line, and also act as flak batteries against flanking escorts.
If not using an Emperor use an Overlord as just other line cruiser with upgraded firepower..