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Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Out of my Mind

I've been playing fairly casual waiting for my Codex to come out. With that around the corner, I've started to watch games a bit more actively and playing with the Primaris starter. There are a few things that have only now come up that I'm trying to sort out/confirm how it's played. Most of these are pretty simple which is why I can't find anything on them. Just wanting to make sure.

1 - 'Consolidation' - So this happens at the end of each units activation, and not at the end of a fight, or phase? I keep seeing units charge, Pile-in, then Pile-in again after they've finished their attacks. I think I'm confused because I've seen some players not Pile-in after the activation, but will after a unit gets wiped out from failing Morale. Re-reading the rule, it looks like it's the first option. On a side note, can a model still move/pile-in if it's already in base contact? (ie. Wheel around 3"?)

2 - 'Heroic Intervention' - Another Odd one. Heroic Intervention allows a Character within 3" after a charge to move up to 3". What I've been seeing is that the Character moves closer to the enemy model that just charged, but because of the models in the way still can't get within 1". If the character isn't within 1" at the end of the move, then he still doesn't get to swing right? I've seen a few games now where they've essentially treated the character as a member of the unit actually in Combat, and are getting to swing by being within 1" of a friendly model that is in base contact. Just not seeing any rule to support it. Side note here as well because I think it was just the two guys misunderstanding the rule. 'Heroic Intervention' only triggers after an enemy model charges. He can't wait until after the charging model has attacked to remove models from the unit in the way, then perform a 'Heroic Intervention'?

3 - Check for Range done when declaring the shots? Never been an issue for me until recently, as I don't have mixed weapons in my units. When checking for range on weapons, do I simply check when declaring which unit is shooting for all weapons? So casualty removal no longer affects weapon ranges from the same unit? ex. Rapid Firing Bolters removes 3 models, forcing the Rapid Firing Plasma gun to single shot. Again, it's fairly simple, just wanting to make sure.

4 - +1 save for being in Cover (Timing) - When Fast Rolling, this rule makes complete sense. Simply check to see if all the models in the target unit are in cover, and if they're not, then no save. The rolls are still resolved 'individually', so is my opponent able to resolve the saves one at a time, removing models outside of cover, until the remaining models are inside of cover for the +1. It was a simple question and I couldn't find anything to support one way or the other. It's possible I just missed it, but I'd really like to know. If it is one check, then do the models still get the cover save if one model is outside of the terrain, but also out of Line of Sight? (This came up in one game, and the guy was claiming a cover save because a few of his models weren't even visible, but definitely were not in the building.

5 - Maelstrom Missions still have the Discard 1 at the end of your turn. There is now a Stratagem that allows you to discard one at the start of your turn. I still see players doing the 'Discard if you can't get it' House Rule, but is there another one that allows you to discard additional Objectives outside of the 1, or was I just watching another House rule being played differently?

Lastly: Has the Primaris Aggressor shooting 2x on Turn 1 issue been officially resolved. Seems to still be a split on it with some saying they need a turn to activate it, and others saying that it's simply a result of them not having moved period. I think it's mostly a 'sportsmanship' issue when one player fails to disclose it before a game to his opponent. Unless there has been some ruling on it that I haven't found.

Thank You.

Current Armies
Waiting for 40k to come back in the next edition.

 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

My answers as best I could:

 Akar wrote:
1 - 'Consolidation' - So this happens at the end of each units activation, and not at the end of a fight, or phase? I keep seeing units charge, Pile-in, then Pile-in again after they've finished their attacks. I think I'm confused because I've seen some players not Pile-in after the activation, but will after a unit gets wiped out from failing Morale. Re-reading the rule, it looks like it's the first option. On a side note, can a model still move/pile-in if it's already in base contact? (ie. Wheel around 3"?)


'Pile In' and 'Consolidate' are different steps of the Fight phase. Pile In is step two, after choosing a unit to fight with, and Consolidate is step six, after resolving a unit's close combat attacks. Both may be done in any direction so long as each model ends its move closer to the nearest enemy model. You cannot pile in or consolidate in the Morale phase even if the whole enemy unit is wiped. If a model is in base contact it cannot get any closer to the nearest enemy model, so cannot pile in or consolidate.

2 - 'Heroic Intervention' - Another Odd one. Heroic Intervention allows a Character within 3" after a charge to move up to 3". What I've been seeing is that the Character moves closer to the enemy model that just charged, but because of the models in the way still can't get within 1". If the character isn't within 1" at the end of the move, then he still doesn't get to swing right? I've seen a few games now where they've essentially treated the character as a member of the unit actually in Combat, and are getting to swing by being within 1" of a friendly model that is in base contact. Just not seeing any rule to support it. Side note here as well because I think it was just the two guys misunderstanding the rule. 'Heroic Intervention' only triggers after an enemy model charges. He can't wait until after the charging model has attacked to remove models from the unit in the way, then perform a 'Heroic Intervention'?


Models within a unit may only attack if they are within 1" of an enemy model, or if they are within 1" of a model in their own unit that is within 1" of an enemy model. This means that solo CHARACTERS cannot attack if they perform a Heroic Intervention but don't make it within 1" of an enemy model themselves, even if they are within 1" of a friendly model that is within 1" of an enemy model unless that model is from the same unit as the CHARACTER.

3 - Check for Range done when declaring the shots? Never been an issue for me until recently, as I don't have mixed weapons in my units. When checking for range on weapons, do I simply check when declaring which unit is shooting for all weapons? So casualty removal no longer affects weapon ranges from the same unit? ex. Rapid Firing Bolters removes 3 models, forcing the Rapid Firing Plasma gun to single shot. Again, it's fairly simple, just wanting to make sure.


Correct, casualty removal does not affect your ability to fire subsequent different weapons within the unit. This is because you only ever check range once, before you resolve any of the weapons' shots.

4 - +1 save for being in Cover (Timing) - When Fast Rolling, this rule makes complete sense. Simply check to see if all the models in the target unit are in cover, and if they're not, then no save. The rolls are still resolved 'individually', so is my opponent able to resolve the saves one at a time, removing models outside of cover, until the remaining models are inside of cover for the +1. It was a simple question and I couldn't find anything to support one way or the other. It's possible I just missed it, but I'd really like to know. If it is one check, then do the models still get the cover save if one model is outside of the terrain, but also out of Line of Sight? (This came up in one game, and the guy was claiming a cover save because a few of his models weren't even visible, but definitely were not in the building.


Yes, you may resolve sequentially until all surviving models in a unit are in cover to claim +1 to their armour saving throws. I believe this was also answered somewhere in an FAQ or similar, but I've not seen it myself.

5 - Maelstrom Missions still have the Discard 1 at the end of your turn. There is now a Stratagem that allows you to discard one at the start of your turn. I still see players doing the 'Discard if you can't get it' House Rule, but is there another one that allows you to discard additional Objectives outside of the 1, or was I just watching another House rule being played differently?


Not that I'm aware of, though there may be.

Lastly: Has the Primaris Aggressor shooting 2x on Turn 1 issue been officially resolved. Seems to still be a split on it with some saying they need a turn to activate it, and others saying that it's simply a result of them not having moved period. I think it's mostly a 'sportsmanship' issue when one player fails to disclose it before a game to his opponent. Unless there has been some ruling on it that I haven't found.


Again, not that I'm aware of. By the rules as they are they need to have remained stationary during their turn to benefit, and if they haven't had a turn they cannot be said to have remained stationary. Discuss with your opponent if they or you are bringing Aggressors.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Small addition on Heroic Intervention (HI).
You have to wait until EVERY charge has been completed before declaring any HI. This could be 0 charges or 50 charges but they all get resolved first.
Then any of your characters within 3” of an enemy model may declare HI.
Once declared a character may then move up to 3” toward the nearest enemy model. Sometimes this against an enemy that didn’t even charge, sometimes your character doesn’t even need to move.
If your character is then within 1” it an enemy unit they may fight in the fight phase (so long as they’re still within 1”, casualties happen.).

Looking at other questions seems they’ve been answered already except:

4) The entire unit must be on the cover for any of them to gain it. LoS doesn’t matter and if there’s a model not on cover then the unit doesn’t have cover.
   
Made in kr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

Gendif wrote:
Small addition on Heroic Intervention (HI).
You have to wait until EVERY charge has been completed before declaring any HI. This could be 0 charges or 50 charges but they all get resolved first.
Then any of your characters within 3” of an enemy model may declare HI.
Once declared a character may then move up to 3” toward the nearest enemy model. Sometimes this against an enemy that didn’t even charge, sometimes your character doesn’t even need to move.
If your character is then within 1” it an enemy unit they may fight in the fight phase (so long as they’re still within 1”, casualties happen.).

Looking at other questions seems they’ve been answered already except:

4) The entire unit must be on the cover for any of them to gain it. LoS doesn’t matter and if there’s a model not on cover then the unit doesn’t have cover.


Re 4):
First, I thought that this was FAQed... But might be wrong.
Second, does anyone actually play this way?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 14:08:00


   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 jeff white wrote:

Re 4):
First, I thought that this was FAQed... But might be wrong.
Second, does anyone actually play this way?


Well, if I may quote the Designers Commentary PDF:

“All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the bene t of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the bene t of cover.”

As for who plays like this I’d hope everyone does since it’s... well... the rules. But feel free to house rule it away.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






As an example ...

I have an Astra Militarum Infantry Squad of 10 models. Six are in Cover, four are not. The unit is attacked and six Wounds are inflicted. I can apply those Wounds to models out of cover first, needing a 5+ to save. Assuming I'm as unlucky as ever, I fail the first four saves, so those four models are removed. At this point, the unit is now entirely in cover, so the last two Wounds are saved on a 4+ now.

You can still use fast rolling if you want; roll a number of saves equal to the number of models out of cover, and repeat like this until they all die. Then roll all the remaining saves using the increased save for being in cover.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As an example ...

I have an Astra Militarum Infantry Squad of 10 models. Six are in Cover, four are not. The unit is attacked and six Wounds are inflicted. I can apply those Wounds to models out of cover first, needing a 5+ to save. Assuming I'm as unlucky as ever, I fail the first four saves, so those four models are removed. At this point, the unit is now entirely in cover, so the last two Wounds are saved on a 4+ now.

You can still use fast rolling if you want; roll a number of saves equal to the number of models out of cover, and repeat like this until they all die. Then roll all the remaining saves using the increased save for being in cover.

'Fast Dice Rolling' doesn't permit the fast rolling of saves, only the hit rolls and wound rolls. From page 129 of the main rulebook:

Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Ghaz wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
As an example ...

I have an Astra Militarum Infantry Squad of 10 models. Six are in Cover, four are not. The unit is attacked and six Wounds are inflicted. I can apply those Wounds to models out of cover first, needing a 5+ to save. Assuming I'm as unlucky as ever, I fail the first four saves, so those four models are removed. At this point, the unit is now entirely in cover, so the last two Wounds are saved on a 4+ now.

You can still use fast rolling if you want; roll a number of saves equal to the number of models out of cover, and repeat like this until they all die. Then roll all the remaining saves using the increased save for being in cover.

'Fast Dice Rolling' doesn't permit the fast rolling of saves, only the hit rolls and wound rolls. From page 129 of the main rulebook:

Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate.


I am curious if anyone plays THIS as written (except of course in the above cases where it matters). 30 orks boyz mob (all outside cover) takes 14 wounds of small arms fire (all AP-). - Chooses ork - rolls save - chooses next ork - rolls save...

something else that just occured to me: Is you above quote literal, since it says your opponent "can" allocate wounds, implying it is optional...
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

No, the word 'can' doesn't mean that it's optional. It's telling the player that once he has done X, then his opponent can do Y. There is no option given where he can choose to play it any other way.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Out of my Mind

Thank You everyone for the responses. I've gotten the information that I've needed so things make sense when playing/watching games. Really just trying to sort out 40k from House rules as I try to make sense of the smaller stuff.

The 'Cover' issue.
I didn't expect this one to be so detailed, but it's been answered. It appears that there are several options that players have to sort it all out after checking for who is in cover and who isn't.
- Roll all the saves based off of what the cover save of the unit is at the time all shots are declared. I've played this way, and have seen several others do it as well. The only advantage gained in doing it this way is to save time.
- Roll all the saves one at a time, removing them from outside of cover until all that remains are models in cover. The remaining models get the bonus.
- Roll the saves in groups, starting with models outside of cover until all are dead. Once they're all dead, then you can group roll for those that remain. This seems a good compromise of the two, saving time without giving the attacking player an unnecessary advantage.
- Screw it all, play 'Imperial Fists' (or other similar mechanics), and never have to worry about it.

Gendif wrote:
Small addition on Heroic Intervention (HI).
You have to wait until EVERY charge has been completed before declaring any HI. This could be 0 charges or 50 charges but they all get resolved first.
Then any of your characters within 3” of an enemy model may declare HI.
Once declared a character may then move up to 3” toward the nearest enemy model. Sometimes this against an enemy that didn’t even charge, sometimes your character doesn’t even need to move.

Thank You for this even though I didn't initially see what you were getting at. I wasn't concerned about it because HI is very clear when it happens. After going back over some games, I don't believe it's ever come up as virtually every assault I've witnessed so far is one unit charging one unit. So HI would technically have to wait until the charge on the other side of the board would have to be completed before he could perform HI. I don't see a problem with doing HI as each unit completes it's charge until you brought this up. Honestly I only saw HI happen in one game so far, and the issue was him being able to attack if that 3" move didn't get him into 1". I've seen plenty of games where a Character could, but hasn't for whatever reason. The rest is just my thoughts on imagining a character being in a position to HI, so just a thought exercise on my part.

My guess would be that it would avoid someone declaring a charge against a character that used HI? (ie. the unit needed a 7 to get in, but then the Character shortened that distance because of his HI move.)
If the character does HI, and makes it within 1", is he eligible to be attacked? (This might explain why I've never seen it happen when a unit gets charged)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/22 19:12:09


Current Armies
Waiting for 40k to come back in the next edition.

 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Akar wrote:
If the character does HI, and makes it within 1", is he eligible to be attacked? (This might explain why I've never seen it happen when a unit gets charged)


No, because models that charged may only attack the unit(s) they charged in the previous phase, being the Charge phase.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 19:52:19


 
   
Made in ar
Been Around the Block





 Mr. Shine wrote:

'Pile In' and 'Consolidate' are different steps of the Fight phase. Pile In is step two, after choosing a unit to fight with, and Consolidate is step six, after resolving a unit's close combat attacks. Both may be done in any direction so long as each model ends its move closer to the nearest enemy model. You cannot pile in or consolidate in the Morale phase even if the whole enemy unit is wiped. If a model is in base contact it cannot get any closer to the nearest enemy model, so cannot pile in or consolidate.


Mmm... not sure about that, I mean, as long as you didnt declare that two models are btb then you could argue that the miniatures were one nanometer apart, and now they are one nanometer closer, so you could pivote around a model
Same thing happens when you have to deploy something farther than 9", you deploy them at 9" but need a 9 to charge, because you are 9.00000001", and an 8" +1" melee range wouldnt be enough...

 Mr. Shine wrote:
 Akar wrote:
If the character does HI, and makes it within 1", is he eligible to be attacked? (This might explain why I've never seen it happen when a unit gets charged)


No, because models that charged may only attack the unit(s) they charged in the previous phase, being the Charge phase.


Unless you HI into a unit that didnt charge, in that case I think they get to attack it

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 20:23:17


 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Mmm... not sure about that, I mean, as long as you didnt declare that two models are btb then you could argue that the miniatures were one nanometer apart, and now they are one nanometer closer, so you could pivote around a model
Same thing happens when you have to deploy something farther than 9", you deploy them at 9" but need a 9 to charge, because you are 9.00000001", and an 8" +1" melee range wouldnt be enough...


If that's the sort of argument you want to make in your games when models are obviously in what any sensible person would consider base contact, then power to you.

My statement though was plainly on the basis of being in base contact, which isn't a nanometer apart.

Unless you HI into a unit that didnt charge, in that case I think they get to attack it


Ah yes, a good point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 20:33:20


 
   
Made in ar
Been Around the Block





 Mr. Shine wrote:
 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Mmm... not sure about that, I mean, as long as you didnt declare that two models are btb then you could argue that the miniatures were one nanometer apart, and now they are one nanometer closer, so you could pivote around a model
Same thing happens when you have to deploy something farther than 9", you deploy them at 9" but need a 9 to charge, because you are 9.00000001", and an 8" +1" melee range wouldnt be enough...


If that's the sort of argument you want to make in your games when models are obviously in what any sensible person would consider base contact, then power to you.

My statement though was plainly on the basis of being in base contact, which isn't a nanometer apart.


Yep, if thats the case then yes, if you are btb then technically you cant pile in or consolidate, what I ment is that in a game where exact meassurements are impossible, "farther" is (only for purposes of positioning) "not closer than" and "closer" is "not farther than" because when you meassure 9" you dont know if you really are at 9.001" or 8.999"
And so my example for deploying farther than 9", you deploy at 9" but treat it as a 9.001", regardless of the model really being 8.99" away

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 21:03:53


 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Out of my Mind

1 - The question about piling in was more of a 'Wheeling' mechanic. Ie. I've seen models rotate around the model in Base Contact, never moving more than 3" or leaving base contact with the initial model. This allows more models to get into conatct. (I think Warmahordes does this)

2 - So if I declared a multi charge against a Character and the unit blocking him (allowing overwatch from both), but fail to make the charge within 1" of the Character, is he eligible to be attacked if he uses HI? Or is it illegal to declare the charge because I can't make contact with him, despite being within 12"?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 21:26:43


Current Armies
Waiting for 40k to come back in the next edition.

 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

The important thing to note about heroic intervention is that the character must be within 3" of the target. That means, 3" base to base. If you are 3.2" away, for example, you cannot heroically intervene, despite a 3" move landing you within an inch.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in nz
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran




Ankh Morpork

 Akar wrote:
1 - The question about piling in was more of a 'Wheeling' mechanic. Ie. I've seen models rotate around the model in Base Contact, never moving more than 3" or leaving base contact with the initial model. This allows more models to get into conatct. (I think Warmahordes does this)


This is going to come down to circumstance and/or discussing with your opponent. If a model is, in practically visible terms, in base contact, then I'd suggest you can't try to pull it. If you roll sufficient charge distance but place a model say half an inch away then you could pile in around enemy models into base contact to fit more models in, yes.

2 - So if I declared a multi charge against a Character and the unit blocking him (allowing overwatch from both), but fail to make the charge within 1" of the Character, is he eligible to be attacked if he uses HI? Or is it illegal to declare the charge because I can't make contact with him, despite being within 12"?


This could be trickier. We know for certain a charge fails if you cannot get within 1" of models from at least one enemy unit you declared a charge against. As a matter of common sense I'd say if you declared a charge against two units but only managed to get within 1" of one unit then only the one unit (and not the other) was actually charged.

You're certainly free to declare charges against multiple units within 12" even if there are intervening models in the way. If you have a unit that is able to fight multiple times in the Fight phase for example, you may wish to declare charges against units behind the first as you may be able to wipe the first unit, consolidate, pile in within 1" and then attack the second unit, which you could not do without declaring a charge against them also.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From the Designer's Commentary:

Q: When piling in and consolidating, does a model have to move as close as possible towards the nearest enemy model, or do they just need to move closer to it?

A: If a model moves at all when piling in or consolidating, it only has to end its move closer to the nearest enemy model than where it started. It is not necessary to move as close as possible (i.e. base-to-base contact).

Note that if a model is in base-to-base contact, it cannot possibly end a move closer to the enemy, and so cannot move when its unit piles in or consolidates.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Gendif wrote:
 jeff white wrote:

Re 4):
First, I thought that this was FAQed... But might be wrong.
Second, does anyone actually play this way?


Well, if I may quote the Designers Commentary PDF:

“All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.
Note, however, that it is possible for a unit to gain the bene t of cover as it suffers casualties during the Shooting phase by removing those models that are not on, or within terrain. As soon as the last model that was not on or within terrain is slain, the rest of the unit immediately starts to receive the bene t of cover.”

As for who plays like this I’d hope everyone does since it’s... well... the rules. But feel free to house rule it away.


Yep, I definitely play it the FAQ'd way. It's easy to do.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Devious Space Marine dedicated to Tzeentch




 Grotsnik1 wrote:

Mmm... not sure about that, I mean, as long as you didnt declare that two models are btb then you could argue that the miniatures were one nanometer apart, and now they are one nanometer closer, so you could pivote around a model
Same thing happens when you have to deploy something farther than 9", you deploy them at 9" but need a 9 to charge, because you are 9.00000001", and an 8" +1" melee range wouldnt be enough...


If you're going to argue something like this, you have to prove it. If you're supposed to be farther than 9" away from something, there should be some visible space between 9" on the ruler and the two models. If there isn't any way to see it, for all I know you're closer than 9".

If you tell me you're not really in contact, fine, but you better measure the distance before, and then measure the distance after, to show you got closer. If you can't measure and show that you're following the rules, you might as well play without measuring at all. And you can use blank dice and just tell me what you rolled.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

You don't declare something is touching/base-to-base contact. It just is, visibly, or it isn't. If you don't mean it to be touching, make sure you leave a visible gap, don't try to backtrack it later. No amount of 'declaring' can make something not in contact if it clearly, visibly is. Just leave the gap and there's no problem. Simples.

[The only real reason to be totally in B2B in this editionis to fit more models within fight distance, either due to terrain or to maximise the number of 25mm bases you can fit in (to get more ranks able to Fight). If that's not a concern just leave a slight gap to allow Consolidate flexibility.]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 22:54:38


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ar
Been Around the Block





Yeah I know, I was just saying... of course the easier way to avoid all of this is just leave a visible ha ir between the 2 bases.

 Akar wrote:

2 - So if I declared a multi charge against a Character and the unit blocking him (allowing overwatch from both), but fail to make the charge within 1" of the Character, is he eligible to be attacked if he uses HI? Or is it illegal to declare the charge because I can't make contact with him, despite being within 12"?


You cant declare a charge against a unit/model that is more than 12" but, if both unit and character are less than or 12" far, you charge and get to the unit but not the character and then the character HI, you can attack it yes.
You can also, even if the character didnt HI, place a charging model closer to the hero than to the successfully charged unit and then when you pile in end your movement 1" or less far from the character, and thus it will be elegible target.

You can also pile in to models that you didnt charge (so long as they are the closest model), but then you will not be able to attack them while they will be able to attack you, but in some scenarios is better to just tie up a unit this way.

All of this is coming from the Rulebook and RAW, dont know if there is a faq or errata that im not aware of that negates this.

A lot can be answered here in this articule

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/10/07/assault-phase-tactics/
   
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 Grotsnik1 wrote:
You cant declare a charge against a unit/model that is more than 12" but, if both unit and character are less than or 12" far, you charge and get to the unit but not the character and then the character HI, you can attack it yes.


This is something I'm not convinced of, though I acknowledge it seems to be common convention to allow it.

For a charging unit to be able to attack, they need to have charged that unit, not simply declared a charge against it.

As I said in my last reply, we know explicitly from the rules that a charge fails if the charging unit does not get within 1" of at least one of the target units, but if a charging unit makes it to within 1" of only one target unit, does it count as having charged both units, or only the unit it managed to get within 1" of?

I don't think it's clear in the rules, and again as I say in my previous reply I would say as a matter of common sense that in such a scenario the latter unit was not actually charged.

That said, the following from the Designer's Commentary suggests declaring a charge suffices, but contradicts what is written in the rulebook (i.e. rulebook says "charged" rather than "declared the charge against"):

"Q: If a unit piles in or consolidates into a unit it didn’t declare a charge against in the preceding Charge phase, does that unit get to fire Overwatch?
A: No.

Remember though that units that charged can only make close combat attacks against units that they declared the charge against, even if pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a different unit."
   
Made in ar
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Mmm yeah, I agree there is nowhere in the rulebook that says that to charge something means either declaring a charge against something or successfully make a charge against something... so yeah, I see the ambiguity now....
HIWPI is: charge is the process where you declare a target/s, roll your dice and then move your charging unit or not, regardless of the result that unit charged, and so it cant make another charge ("no unit can be selected to charge more than once in each charge phase")... I mean, if you charge then you charged, regardless of the result, because the process starts when you declare it, at least thats the way I see it... as long as you declared a charge against a unit that unit has been charged and the charging unit charged that unit, no need it was a successful one...
But I can see it going the other way also so idk

Reading it again, the way I defined "charged" would mean that even a failed charge unit gets to pile in, which is obviously not RAI, but then again RAW this could be legal, depending on the meaning of "charged"

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/23 01:33:40


 
   
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Ankh Morpork

I'd say it's clear that if you don't reach at least one target you haven't charged because we're told the charge fails in such a scenario.

Implication then being that if you don't reach a target you haven't charged it, though it's not clear if reaching one is enough for all in a multi-target charge scenario.
   
Made in ar
Been Around the Block





 Mr. Shine wrote:
I'd say it's clear that if you don't reach at least one target you haven't charged because we're told the charge fails in such a scenario.


Well this happens because nowhere is the distinction between charge and successfully charge...
Sounds kinda weird saying "this unit was selected to charge but it didnt charge"
A different thing would be saying "this unit was selected to charge but it didnt successfully charge"

Saying this because the rolebook says "no unit can be selected to charge more than once in each charge phase" and so it sounds awkward the first statement of my example.... seriously GW, was it that difficult to clarify between successfully charged sth/charged sth/charging unit...?

Anyway I think we can all agree that RAI is that a unit that failed a charge is not a unit that charged but the key here is that is not RAW... at least im not seeing it

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/23 03:41:05


 
   
Made in nz
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Ankh Morpork

It sounds weird because in plain English usage and with common sense we know that if you fail to do something you can't be said to have actually done it.
   
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Out of my Mind

Thank You both of you for your input. With your viewpoint, I was able to re-read the rules from a different angle. I believe I've got it cleared up for now, so not terribly worried about it as I realized the extreme set of conditions that must happen for it to ever come up.

- The only requirement for a unit to be charged is within 12". I didn't find any requirement stating that all charged unit(s) must also be within 1" at the end of the move to be an eligible unit to be attacked.
- It appears that one of the purposes of the Charge phase is to inform your opponent of who you want to be able to attack. This is a slightly off from simplifying it to telling your opponent who you are going to attack.
- The only known condition that causes a charge to fail, is the first model not making it within 1" of one of the models from one of the target units. The Charge appears to still be successful, even if it doesn't make it to all of the targets.

While I understand the concept behind a charge 'failing' if it doesn't get within range of the unit, the change in the first part just put them on the list. I'm not going to break it down any further from here, as there is a much simpler solution that seemed to agree with the players that I spoke with.

If I allow you to Overwatch against the charging unit, then I should be allowed to attack that unit if it becomes eligible at any point during the combat. By keeping him as an eligible target, the Defending player STILL has the option to not perform HI. We felt that this was the 'most fair' trade-off, and have agreed to play it that way. The reality is that we will now get into the habit of declaring a charge against multiple units/characters within 12", so that if there are ANY tricks, then all targets in range are on the table.

When we discussed it this way, it became clear that treating the 'failed' charge against the Character as rendering him ineligible to be attacked only favors the defender in all outcomes. This leaves the attacking player at a disadvantage no matter what he decides to do, and the defending player could in theory exploit it. There would be no reason to declare a charge against a character as he'd get his Overwatch shots in addition to not being eligible to be attacked. While the Overwatch shots probably won't have any impact on the course of the game it illustrates that the solution that the charge fails only benefits the defender.

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Just to piggyback this simple questions thread, in the rules comedy thread in 40k general one of the first things listed is how lazcanons can kill 3 or 4 dudes in one shot. That's not how that works, right? you roll a d6 and deal that many wounds to 1 model, no spillover?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/23 09:11:53


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 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Just to piggyback this simple questions thread, in the rules comedy thread in 40k general one of the first things listed is how lazcanons can kill 3 or 4 dudes in one shot. That's not how that works, right? you roll a d6 and deal that many wounds to 1 model, no spillover?


Yes, the person was wrong. Only mortal wounds spill over to models in the same unit (meaning a sniper rifle causing wound and mortal wound can kill 2 models)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 10:01:47


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